| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:35 - Apr 25 with 2454 views | WeWereZombies |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:01 - Apr 25 by Lord_Lucan |
I suggest then that everyone takes a look around their house.
The public gets what the public wants. |
But I want nothing this societys got
I'm going underground?
But what can be achieved from the underground and quiet revolutions, don't they just fizzle out, especially in the face of global forces? What to do?
Underground
Overground?
Wombling free...
(with apologies to a Mark Thomas take off of Lou Reed I saw on TV a long time ago) |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:37 - Apr 25 with 2452 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:32 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
nonsense, people can't shirk responsibility in that way. consumers buy stuff, and what they buy is energy intensive. companies make profits because consumers buy their stuff. |
I think it was a German who realised that light bulbs lasted a lifetime and that if he made them disposable he could make more money. Why do you think most electronic goods have to be replaced after a few years of use? |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:40 - Apr 25 with 2446 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:30 - Apr 25 by WeWereZombies |
The economic exploitation of the Earth's resources has been going on for more than two hundred years but the ramping up occurred from about 1760 and resulted from mechanisation as well as new chemical processes and the use of steam power. There have been many innovations since then that have accelerated the effects upon the climate.
However, the ideological spur to the Industrial Revolution came earlier and has been cited as the monastic tradition in the Early Middle Ages which gave an orderliness to agriculture and relied upon good timekeeping. An important thinker in the period immediately after the English Civil War was John Locke who gave a moral validity to the mixing of labour with natural resources to produce ownership and a means to establish exchange of goods. The religious basis for capitalism should not be understimated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industrial_Revolution#Causes
This is all interesting grounds for thought and maybe what is needed now is an economic system that has global well being as the goal rather than self interest. The question is whether we can work that out in the time before most systems collapse. |
it's more a question of whether there is the political will to act globally and collectively. are populations prepared to consume less, with the richest nations taking the biggest consumption hit? if people will vote for it the problem is solvable. energy intensive stuff needs to be more expensive so that we consume less of it. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:43 - Apr 25 with 2437 views | StokieBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:37 - Apr 25 by noggin |
I think it was a German who realised that light bulbs lasted a lifetime and that if he made them disposable he could make more money. Why do you think most electronic goods have to be replaced after a few years of use? |
That's not the reason light bulbs don't last forever but I guess it fits nicely with the argument you are constructing.
Light bulbs can last longer if:
- They are not turned on and off (surely a very bad thing if they aren't turned off)
- The filament is made from rare metal (surely a good thing it isn't)
- If the visible light radiated is very small (surely a good thing they are bright)
LEDs do change a lot of the above and do last longer but to say it's all a capitalist plot to make more money is not true.
Do most electronics have to be replaced? I would think most people want to replace them with the latest one. There are plenty of old electronics laying about that work just fine. I will certainly agree they could be made better but would the consumer pay more for such build quality? Is it the companies driving the reliability or the consumers acceptable cost points driving it?
SB [Post edited 25 Apr 2019 12:44]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:43 - Apr 25 with 2429 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:37 - Apr 25 by noggin |
I think it was a German who realised that light bulbs lasted a lifetime and that if he made them disposable he could make more money. Why do you think most electronic goods have to be replaced after a few years of use? |
because (a) people want to buy cheap stuff - and costs are therefore cut in manufacturing which reduces lifespan; (b) technology moves on rapidly and people want to own the latest version so they dump stuff early. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:45 - Apr 25 with 2419 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:43 - Apr 25 by StokieBlue |
That's not the reason light bulbs don't last forever but I guess it fits nicely with the argument you are constructing.
Light bulbs can last longer if:
- They are not turned on and off (surely a very bad thing if they aren't turned off)
- The filament is made from rare metal (surely a good thing it isn't)
- If the visible light radiated is very small (surely a good thing they are bright)
LEDs do change a lot of the above and do last longer but to say it's all a capitalist plot to make more money is not true.
Do most electronics have to be replaced? I would think most people want to replace them with the latest one. There are plenty of old electronics laying about that work just fine. I will certainly agree they could be made better but would the consumer pay more for such build quality? Is it the companies driving the reliability or the consumers acceptable cost points driving it?
SB [Post edited 25 Apr 2019 12:44]
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebus_cartel | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:47 - Apr 25 with 2416 views | WeWereZombies |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:32 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
nonsense, people can't shirk responsibility in that way. consumers buy stuff, and what they buy is energy intensive. companies make profits because consumers buy their stuff. |
Your example only works if there are alternatives and a quick leaf through the works of an economic thinker such as Prof. Michael Porter (of 'Competitive Strategy' fame) will awaken you to the intensive works that marketing departments and company strategists perform to limit what is available to the consumer and prevent new entrants to a market 'muscling in' on established ways of cornering demand:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/porter.asp | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:48 - Apr 25 with 2412 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:43 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
because (a) people want to buy cheap stuff - and costs are therefore cut in manufacturing which reduces lifespan; (b) technology moves on rapidly and people want to own the latest version so they dump stuff early. |
Who do you think drives that desire? | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:51 - Apr 25 with 2395 views | WeWereZombies |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:40 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
it's more a question of whether there is the political will to act globally and collectively. are populations prepared to consume less, with the richest nations taking the biggest consumption hit? if people will vote for it the problem is solvable. energy intensive stuff needs to be more expensive so that we consume less of it. |
It really is not a question of political will or consuming less but one of best fit. And if voters, organisations, nations or blocs do not fit in then they perish - no matter how many of them there are. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:52 - Apr 25 with 2393 views | StokieBlue |
That was 80 years ago and they did it for 15 years. They also decreased it from 2500 hours to 1000 hours, hardly everlasting as per your claim.
"Some engineers deemed the life expectancy of 1,000 hours reasonable for most bulbs, and that a longer lifetime came at the expense of efficiency. Engineers argued that longer bulb life caused the increase of heat and decrease of light if bulbs lasted longer than 1,000 hours. They argued the result of wasted electricity.[8] Consumers can purchase long-life incandescent bulbs today that last up to 2,500 hours; but long-life bulbs offer less energy-efficiency and produce less light per watt."
So as per my post there are also scientific reasons for the way bulbs have been designed.
"in 1931 the Scandinavians produced and sold lamps at a considerably lower price than Phoebus."
Their cartel didn't even work either so I don't see how any of it supports your original post.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:54 - Apr 25 with 2391 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:47 - Apr 25 by WeWereZombies |
Your example only works if there are alternatives and a quick leaf through the works of an economic thinker such as Prof. Michael Porter (of 'Competitive Strategy' fame) will awaken you to the intensive works that marketing departments and company strategists perform to limit what is available to the consumer and prevent new entrants to a market 'muscling in' on established ways of cornering demand:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/porter.asp |
yes i know porter's stuff - I've taught it in the distant past. companies may try to create market power. but in almost all markets consumers still have choice - and consumer preferences that are unmet create the potential for new entry. companies that don't meet consumer demand die. you can't use market power arguments to take responsibility away from consumers. people consuming too many energy intensive products is the core of the problem. companies make profits from selling them because people buy them. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:55 - Apr 25 with 2386 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:51 - Apr 25 by WeWereZombies |
It really is not a question of political will or consuming less but one of best fit. And if voters, organisations, nations or blocs do not fit in then they perish - no matter how many of them there are. |
that doesn't make any sense. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:58 - Apr 25 with 2378 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:52 - Apr 25 by StokieBlue |
That was 80 years ago and they did it for 15 years. They also decreased it from 2500 hours to 1000 hours, hardly everlasting as per your claim.
"Some engineers deemed the life expectancy of 1,000 hours reasonable for most bulbs, and that a longer lifetime came at the expense of efficiency. Engineers argued that longer bulb life caused the increase of heat and decrease of light if bulbs lasted longer than 1,000 hours. They argued the result of wasted electricity.[8] Consumers can purchase long-life incandescent bulbs today that last up to 2,500 hours; but long-life bulbs offer less energy-efficiency and produce less light per watt."
So as per my post there are also scientific reasons for the way bulbs have been designed.
"in 1931 the Scandinavians produced and sold lamps at a considerably lower price than Phoebus."
Their cartel didn't even work either so I don't see how any of it supports your original post.
SB |
"Purpose
The cartel conveniently lowered operational costs and worked to standardize the life expectancy of light bulbs at 1,000 hours[6] (down from 2,500 hours),[6] and raised prices without fear of competition. The cartel tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that lasted more than 1,000 hours. A 1929 table listed the amount of Swiss francs paid that depended on the exceeding hours of lifetime.[7] The cartel operated without the knowledge of the public, and the cartel could point to standardization of light bulbs as an alternative rationale for the organization."
It's all about efficiency guv, honest. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:00 - Apr 25 with 2359 views | StokieBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:58 - Apr 25 by noggin |
"Purpose
The cartel conveniently lowered operational costs and worked to standardize the life expectancy of light bulbs at 1,000 hours[6] (down from 2,500 hours),[6] and raised prices without fear of competition. The cartel tested their bulbs and fined manufacturers for bulbs that lasted more than 1,000 hours. A 1929 table listed the amount of Swiss francs paid that depended on the exceeding hours of lifetime.[7] The cartel operated without the knowledge of the public, and the cartel could point to standardization of light bulbs as an alternative rationale for the organization."
It's all about efficiency guv, honest. |
I acknowledged that point, why have you ignored the rest of the post. Do you have any other examples from nearly a century ago?
It's a poor example for your argument. You've not proven it's the rule rather than exception, you've also ignored the scientific reasons of why bulbs don't last forever which was your original claim. It's almost fake news.
SB [Post edited 25 Apr 2019 13:02]
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:01 - Apr 25 with 2350 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:25 - Apr 25 by noggin |
The public only gets it if it's available. What is the carbon footprint of shipping so much from China? The throw away culture has been forced upon us by very clever businessmmen. |
Not really, everyone has a choice.
At the end of the day everyone wants the best goods at the best price, I'm sure even you fall into that. You try and tell your kid that he can't have Buzz Lightyear because it's only made in China.
Anyway I don't know why you're picking on me, your original answer had little to do with my post. My post was about the protest, not consumerism. |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:06 - Apr 25 with 2338 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:00 - Apr 25 by StokieBlue |
I acknowledged that point, why have you ignored the rest of the post. Do you have any other examples from nearly a century ago?
It's a poor example for your argument. You've not proven it's the rule rather than exception, you've also ignored the scientific reasons of why bulbs don't last forever which was your original claim. It's almost fake news.
SB [Post edited 25 Apr 2019 13:02]
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When I said a lifetime, I was generalising. I just knew I had read about this cartel and that it encouraged other electronic manufacturers to look at their production methods. The point is, manufacturers will always try to maximise profits rather than care about the environment. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:08 - Apr 25 with 2326 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:01 - Apr 25 by Lord_Lucan |
Not really, everyone has a choice.
At the end of the day everyone wants the best goods at the best price, I'm sure even you fall into that. You try and tell your kid that he can't have Buzz Lightyear because it's only made in China.
Anyway I don't know why you're picking on me, your original answer had little to do with my post. My post was about the protest, not consumerism. |
I'm not picking on you. I was just trying to engage in your point about China and India being far bigger culprits than us. Sorry if it came over as that. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:08 - Apr 25 with 2323 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 12:48 - Apr 25 by noggin |
Who do you think drives that desire? |
boredom, fashion, status, acquisitiveness, short-attention span, inquisitiveness, a great aching void in the centre of their lives, the decline of religion, etc etc etc.
you can't just blame advertising - people are responsible for what they choose to consume. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:09 - Apr 25 with 2317 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:06 - Apr 25 by noggin |
When I said a lifetime, I was generalising. I just knew I had read about this cartel and that it encouraged other electronic manufacturers to look at their production methods. The point is, manufacturers will always try to maximise profits rather than care about the environment. |
A thoughtful piece on this (growth & profits above all else) by Monbiot today. Whether you love or loathe him I think this is a really good piece that invites further exploration of the issues and further discussion. (Which means it's probably get shouted down as 'commie lefty nonsense because it's in the Guardian'!)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/capitalism-economic-system |  |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:09 - Apr 25 with 2316 views | noggin |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:08 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
boredom, fashion, status, acquisitiveness, short-attention span, inquisitiveness, a great aching void in the centre of their lives, the decline of religion, etc etc etc.
you can't just blame advertising - people are responsible for what they choose to consume. |
We'll just have to agree to differ. I'm off to work now. | |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:11 - Apr 25 with 2309 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:06 - Apr 25 by noggin |
When I said a lifetime, I was generalising. I just knew I had read about this cartel and that it encouraged other electronic manufacturers to look at their production methods. The point is, manufacturers will always try to maximise profits rather than care about the environment. |
they maximise their profits by selling stuff cheaply cos consumers want to buy stuff cheaply. if consumers wanted to buy green stuff companies would maximise their profits by selling green stuff. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:20 - Apr 25 with 2273 views | StokieBlue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:11 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
they maximise their profits by selling stuff cheaply cos consumers want to buy stuff cheaply. if consumers wanted to buy green stuff companies would maximise their profits by selling green stuff. |
This is essentially it. It can be managed through supply and demand.
Sticking with the bulb example, If the consumers demand a more expensive bulb that lasts longer and is better for the environment they will buy that and either the cheaper manufacturers go out of business or they shift to producing what people want.
The idea that the consumer is powerless in this equation and is entirely lead by the manufacturers absolves personal responsibility.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:20 - Apr 25 with 2271 views | lowhouseblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:09 - Apr 25 by Swansea_Blue |
A thoughtful piece on this (growth & profits above all else) by Monbiot today. Whether you love or loathe him I think this is a really good piece that invites further exploration of the issues and further discussion. (Which means it's probably get shouted down as 'commie lefty nonsense because it's in the Guardian'!)
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/25/capitalism-economic-system |
although it does all rather rest on his assertion that capitalism requires perpetual growth which isn't necessarily correct. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:25 - Apr 25 with 2246 views | Bogblue |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:08 - Apr 25 by lowhouseblue |
boredom, fashion, status, acquisitiveness, short-attention span, inquisitiveness, a great aching void in the centre of their lives, the decline of religion, etc etc etc.
you can't just blame advertising - people are responsible for what they choose to consume. |
I take it as an encouraging sign that we are now seeing adverts for eco stuff on UK TV, for things like renewable energy. Thats quite new in my experience & indicates a mass of the population cottoning on, with businesses reacting to them |  | | |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:27 - Apr 25 with 2242 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Fantastic to read reports of young people on 13:08 - Apr 25 by noggin |
I'm not picking on you. I was just trying to engage in your point about China and India being far bigger culprits than us. Sorry if it came over as that. |
Actually China are really getting into the "Green" thing. On our biggest selling product one of the most expensive components is the display box it comes in. The box price has rocketed over the past two years because of all the recyclable hoo ha.
If I didn't put the product in a display box I could almost half the price because I could save on the cost of the box and double the qty I could put in a container - but then no one would buy it because it doesn't look pretty.
People can moan all they like and they can take to the streets - but they all want a pretty product. [Post edited 25 Apr 2019 13:30]
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