| At what point do we start to panic? 19:04 - Jul 18 with 20494 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Because the season starts in 16 days and we currently have 0 first team CBs for the Burton game and 1 striker.
EVANS OUT |  |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:18 - Jul 21 with 4130 views | Mullet |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 08:58 - Jul 21 by tractorboy1978 |
Mick inherited a shambolic situation but the quality of the squad was greater than Lambert inherited. I don't think that can really be disputed.
Henderson, Chambers, Edwards, Higgingbottom, Cresswell, N'Daw, Reo-Coker, Wellens, Murphy, DJ Campbell, Chopra, Scotland. There is a lot of quality and Championshio experience amongst that lot.
I am not taking away from the cracking job MM did - he turned the ship around quickly and did a great job. But Lambert inherited a squad that fundamentally wasn't good enough, not one that was under performing. |
I do. We were further adrift, most of the decent players there either had a season or two to go before they were decent Champ players or had had their glory days beforehand.
Wellens and Campbell both dropped out of the league soon after. Cresswell was a kid, Murphy needed Mick to get the best out of him as so many others did.
Given who we had on the bench in the first few games, needed Wellens to play out wide etc. I think suggesting "the squad was greater" is revisionism of the highest order.
Let's not forget, the way in which Hurst's signings were talked up by his sycophants on here either. They were all misunderstood gems and the like apparently.
Likewise, Lambert barely put a win together let alone a couple of them, we never got close to a shambolic Bolton who barely exist. Going down is understandable, but to do it without a fight in the manner we did is inexcusable. |  |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:33 - Jul 21 with 4090 views | Herbivore |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 08:58 - Jul 21 by tractorboy1978 |
Mick inherited a shambolic situation but the quality of the squad was greater than Lambert inherited. I don't think that can really be disputed.
Henderson, Chambers, Edwards, Higgingbottom, Cresswell, N'Daw, Reo-Coker, Wellens, Murphy, DJ Campbell, Chopra, Scotland. There is a lot of quality and Championshio experience amongst that lot.
I am not taking away from the cracking job MM did - he turned the ship around quickly and did a great job. But Lambert inherited a squad that fundamentally wasn't good enough, not one that was under performing. |
Not sure I agree with that assessment. A lot of the players you list were past their best or not as good as their reputation suggested and barely kicked another ball at Championship level within months of Mick's arrival. Nobody rated Chambers or Murphy at that time either, it was Mick that turned them into consistent quality Championship performers. I've never seen a poorer, more dysfunctional Town side than the side in the last throes of the Jewell era and I include last season's shambles in that. |  |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:34 - Jul 21 with 4089 views | solemio |
Blue Badger, I wish you'd come off the fence and say what you really think of Paul Lambert.
It was your 734th post on the subject that made me wonder whether perhaps you feel he has so far been rather less than outstandingly successful. |  | | |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:41 - Jul 21 with 4078 views | gtsb |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 23:42 - Jul 18 by textbackup |
"He wants my respect, he can earn it back"
says the drip that rarely attends a game |
This. |  | | |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 12:56 - Jul 21 with 3982 views | BrixtonBlue |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 08:58 - Jul 21 by tractorboy1978 |
Mick inherited a shambolic situation but the quality of the squad was greater than Lambert inherited. I don't think that can really be disputed.
Henderson, Chambers, Edwards, Higgingbottom, Cresswell, N'Daw, Reo-Coker, Wellens, Murphy, DJ Campbell, Chopra, Scotland. There is a lot of quality and Championshio experience amongst that lot.
I am not taking away from the cracking job MM did - he turned the ship around quickly and did a great job. But Lambert inherited a squad that fundamentally wasn't good enough, not one that was under performing. |
Indeed. |  |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:34 - Jul 21 with 3910 views | bluefunk |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:18 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
I do. We were further adrift, most of the decent players there either had a season or two to go before they were decent Champ players or had had their glory days beforehand.
Wellens and Campbell both dropped out of the league soon after. Cresswell was a kid, Murphy needed Mick to get the best out of him as so many others did.
Given who we had on the bench in the first few games, needed Wellens to play out wide etc. I think suggesting "the squad was greater" is revisionism of the highest order.
Let's not forget, the way in which Hurst's signings were talked up by his sycophants on here either. They were all misunderstood gems and the like apparently.
Likewise, Lambert barely put a win together let alone a couple of them, we never got close to a shambolic Bolton who barely exist. Going down is understandable, but to do it without a fight in the manner we did is inexcusable. |
The squad might not have been better but MM had immediate access to loan signings, and so he could make instant impact, which he did. PL had to endure senior experienced pros emulating the Hurst signings and making major errors which turned the season even more sour - remember Bart vs Bristol City for example - and by the time he could bring in loans we were doomed as others have pointed out |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 14:37 - Jul 21 with 3906 views | tractorboy1978 |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:18 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
I do. We were further adrift, most of the decent players there either had a season or two to go before they were decent Champ players or had had their glory days beforehand.
Wellens and Campbell both dropped out of the league soon after. Cresswell was a kid, Murphy needed Mick to get the best out of him as so many others did.
Given who we had on the bench in the first few games, needed Wellens to play out wide etc. I think suggesting "the squad was greater" is revisionism of the highest order.
Let's not forget, the way in which Hurst's signings were talked up by his sycophants on here either. They were all misunderstood gems and the like apparently.
Likewise, Lambert barely put a win together let alone a couple of them, we never got close to a shambolic Bolton who barely exist. Going down is understandable, but to do it without a fight in the manner we did is inexcusable. |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:42 - Jul 21 with 3902 views | Herbivore |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:34 - Jul 21 by bluefunk |
The squad might not have been better but MM had immediate access to loan signings, and so he could make instant impact, which he did. PL had to endure senior experienced pros emulating the Hurst signings and making major errors which turned the season even more sour - remember Bart vs Bristol City for example - and by the time he could bring in loans we were doomed as others have pointed out |
He didn't make many singings initially though and was hamstrung by the already high number of loanees in the squad as it was only loan signings he could make. Mick just did a better job in the circumstances, that's really all that can be said. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:45 - Jul 21 with 3898 views | tractorboy1978 |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:33 - Jul 21 by Herbivore |
Not sure I agree with that assessment. A lot of the players you list were past their best or not as good as their reputation suggested and barely kicked another ball at Championship level within months of Mick's arrival. Nobody rated Chambers or Murphy at that time either, it was Mick that turned them into consistent quality Championship performers. I've never seen a poorer, more dysfunctional Town side than the side in the last throes of the Jewell era and I include last season's shambles in that. |
We will have to agree to disagree. I didn't need anymore than 10 games last season to conclude we were doomed - so bereft of quality and goal threat. In 2012/13 we had a bunch of misfits but there was more ability in the squad and it was easier to win games as we had forward players that could nick goals. | | | |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:55 - Jul 21 with 3882 views | tractorboy1978 |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 09:18 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
I do. We were further adrift, most of the decent players there either had a season or two to go before they were decent Champ players or had had their glory days beforehand.
Wellens and Campbell both dropped out of the league soon after. Cresswell was a kid, Murphy needed Mick to get the best out of him as so many others did.
Given who we had on the bench in the first few games, needed Wellens to play out wide etc. I think suggesting "the squad was greater" is revisionism of the highest order.
Let's not forget, the way in which Hurst's signings were talked up by his sycophants on here either. They were all misunderstood gems and the like apparently.
Likewise, Lambert barely put a win together let alone a couple of them, we never got close to a shambolic Bolton who barely exist. Going down is understandable, but to do it without a fight in the manner we did is inexcusable. |
We had players that could score goals.
DJ Campbell got 8 in MM's first 12 games in charge. He was pivotal to us changing the momentum quite quickly.
Chopra got two vital goals in fine margin wins too. A 90th minute winner at Bolton and a really classy finish at home to Blackpool IIRC. He was a sh!t house of a bloke but he had a knack of finding an important goal. You could that about several of the team under Jewell - that 5-3 win at Barnsley epitomised it. When they wanted to turn up they could.
MM undoubtedly got the best out of Murphy as a striker but you cannot say he was not a more than seasoned Championship player before MM. He played over 100 times for Sunderland (mostly Prem), had 3 seasons at Celtic and had played over 50 times for us.
Cresswell was a decent LB that was clearly competent and first choice when MM took over.
Chambers had played 170 odd games for Forest at Championship level and also captained them.
You can argue Higgingbottom and Wellens were coming to the end but they had experience and nous that is needed in a battle. They could do the 'job' they were told to. You'd take that over inexperience and naivety when your back in against the wall.
Lambert didn't do well enough for me either on the pitch last season but it is palpably false to say he inherited a better set of players. | | | |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 17:52 - Jul 21 with 3781 views | Mullet |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:55 - Jul 21 by tractorboy1978 |
We had players that could score goals.
DJ Campbell got 8 in MM's first 12 games in charge. He was pivotal to us changing the momentum quite quickly.
Chopra got two vital goals in fine margin wins too. A 90th minute winner at Bolton and a really classy finish at home to Blackpool IIRC. He was a sh!t house of a bloke but he had a knack of finding an important goal. You could that about several of the team under Jewell - that 5-3 win at Barnsley epitomised it. When they wanted to turn up they could.
MM undoubtedly got the best out of Murphy as a striker but you cannot say he was not a more than seasoned Championship player before MM. He played over 100 times for Sunderland (mostly Prem), had 3 seasons at Celtic and had played over 50 times for us.
Cresswell was a decent LB that was clearly competent and first choice when MM took over.
Chambers had played 170 odd games for Forest at Championship level and also captained them.
You can argue Higgingbottom and Wellens were coming to the end but they had experience and nous that is needed in a battle. They could do the 'job' they were told to. You'd take that over inexperience and naivety when your back in against the wall.
Lambert didn't do well enough for me either on the pitch last season but it is palpably false to say he inherited a better set of players. |
All you've done is highlight that Mick was a far better manager, as is always the case when people try and revise and do down that period or any other under him.
We scored goals because Mick knew how to get the best out of inferior players. Look how many players had career best seasons here under him, Murphy included. The fact I wasn't saying he was at his best then, only agrees with me further, so it's an odd point to make because he was essentially a misfit played out on the wing who didn't belong in either position according to Sunderland, Celtic and Town fans alike.
Cresswell was still somewhat nearer the beginning of his progression compared to where Mick left him before we sold him. Mick's first signing was an out of contract Kelly Youga, people seem to be forgetting what actually happened and why, which is telling.
As is the rhetoric around Judge now; suggesting he is worth more to us yet vastly inferior to any of Campbell through to Wellens doesn't add up. Nor does the fact Lambert got in several players on £15-20+k per week in Keane, Quaner, Bree and still failed dismally to build a coherent team or improve what was here significantly, not Bilel Mohsni et al.
Let alone the fact that Lambert's squad was still full of decent Championship players who had been successful here under him from the youngsters who had already had a season or so at this level and he is still utilising such as Downes and Kenlock, right through to Skuse and Chambers.
Your last line comes down to whether you go with how the new recruits of both managers performed, or how Mick's critics promised they could and would. These were all second class Div 3 players billed as the cream of the division assembled by Hurst etc.
There is also the factor of balance in the relevant squads, as already said Mick had to be far more pragmatic and frugal. Whether people want to dismiss him and his achievement or not, it only serves to illustrate how good he was and how dismally far behind him Lambert came.
The proof is in this season and what he does with far more time and money, to get us back into Championship contention. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 19:57 - Jul 21 with 3676 views | BrixtonBlue |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 17:52 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
All you've done is highlight that Mick was a far better manager, as is always the case when people try and revise and do down that period or any other under him.
We scored goals because Mick knew how to get the best out of inferior players. Look how many players had career best seasons here under him, Murphy included. The fact I wasn't saying he was at his best then, only agrees with me further, so it's an odd point to make because he was essentially a misfit played out on the wing who didn't belong in either position according to Sunderland, Celtic and Town fans alike.
Cresswell was still somewhat nearer the beginning of his progression compared to where Mick left him before we sold him. Mick's first signing was an out of contract Kelly Youga, people seem to be forgetting what actually happened and why, which is telling.
As is the rhetoric around Judge now; suggesting he is worth more to us yet vastly inferior to any of Campbell through to Wellens doesn't add up. Nor does the fact Lambert got in several players on £15-20+k per week in Keane, Quaner, Bree and still failed dismally to build a coherent team or improve what was here significantly, not Bilel Mohsni et al.
Let alone the fact that Lambert's squad was still full of decent Championship players who had been successful here under him from the youngsters who had already had a season or so at this level and he is still utilising such as Downes and Kenlock, right through to Skuse and Chambers.
Your last line comes down to whether you go with how the new recruits of both managers performed, or how Mick's critics promised they could and would. These were all second class Div 3 players billed as the cream of the division assembled by Hurst etc.
There is also the factor of balance in the relevant squads, as already said Mick had to be far more pragmatic and frugal. Whether people want to dismiss him and his achievement or not, it only serves to illustrate how good he was and how dismally far behind him Lambert came.
The proof is in this season and what he does with far more time and money, to get us back into Championship contention. |
"Mick had to be far more pragmatic and frugal"
"The proof is in this season and what he (Lambert) does with far more time and money."
I've no idea how you assert Lambert has or has had far more money than Mick. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:05 - Jul 21 with 3665 views | Mullet |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 19:57 - Jul 21 by BrixtonBlue |
"Mick had to be far more pragmatic and frugal"
"The proof is in this season and what he (Lambert) does with far more time and money."
I've no idea how you assert Lambert has or has had far more money than Mick. |
That's hardly surprising given I didn't say that. If you must obsessively keep this up, at least use that excellent comprehension you so often brag about when getting things wrong.
The clue is the comparison between when they took over, not a six year period put up with one just over six months or so.
Probably best you leave it at that, and not waste six pages and hours of your life as per. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:24 - Jul 21 with 3640 views | J2BLUE |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 14:42 - Jul 21 by Herbivore |
He didn't make many singings initially though and was hamstrung by the already high number of loanees in the squad as it was only loan signings he could make. Mick just did a better job in the circumstances, that's really all that can be said. |
Can't argue with this. MM is the best manager we've had in a long time. Hopefully Lambert can take that crown in time but he has plenty of work to do. |  |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:28 - Jul 21 with 3633 views | BrixtonBlue |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:05 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
That's hardly surprising given I didn't say that. If you must obsessively keep this up, at least use that excellent comprehension you so often brag about when getting things wrong.
The clue is the comparison between when they took over, not a six year period put up with one just over six months or so.
Probably best you leave it at that, and not waste six pages and hours of your life as per. |
Even if we take their respective first 6 months I'm not sure how you stack it up that Mick had to be more frugal and Lambert has far more money now.
I'm not obsessively keeping anything up. It's a discussion (to which I've barely commented much at all). No need to get angry about it.
At best, Mick and Lambert have had/will have fairly similar amounts in their war chests - i.e. sod all.
This isn't doing Mick down. He did a great job. But Lambert hasn't got far more money to play with than him - nor is there any evidence he will have in the months and years to come. It's just nonsense. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:34 - Jul 21 with 3621 views | Mullet |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:28 - Jul 21 by BrixtonBlue |
Even if we take their respective first 6 months I'm not sure how you stack it up that Mick had to be more frugal and Lambert has far more money now.
I'm not obsessively keeping anything up. It's a discussion (to which I've barely commented much at all). No need to get angry about it.
At best, Mick and Lambert have had/will have fairly similar amounts in their war chests - i.e. sod all.
This isn't doing Mick down. He did a great job. But Lambert hasn't got far more money to play with than him - nor is there any evidence he will have in the months and years to come. It's just nonsense. |
There's no angry there, or suggestion of it. J2 did the same thing then had the nuts to apologise. Why are you trying to paint me in a negative light after taking a couple of failed pops again like you did the other day? Interesting it's always the same.
I've literally listed the players and wages further up. You're just not very good at this, and if it was ever the other way around you'd be complaining and pointing fingers more vociferously than anyone. It's tedious.
I thought Phil had warned you lot all to pack this sort of behaviour in, maybe you didn't comprehend that either.
That's all you're getting here. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:59 - Jul 21 with 3592 views | tractorboy1978 |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 17:52 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
All you've done is highlight that Mick was a far better manager, as is always the case when people try and revise and do down that period or any other under him.
We scored goals because Mick knew how to get the best out of inferior players. Look how many players had career best seasons here under him, Murphy included. The fact I wasn't saying he was at his best then, only agrees with me further, so it's an odd point to make because he was essentially a misfit played out on the wing who didn't belong in either position according to Sunderland, Celtic and Town fans alike.
Cresswell was still somewhat nearer the beginning of his progression compared to where Mick left him before we sold him. Mick's first signing was an out of contract Kelly Youga, people seem to be forgetting what actually happened and why, which is telling.
As is the rhetoric around Judge now; suggesting he is worth more to us yet vastly inferior to any of Campbell through to Wellens doesn't add up. Nor does the fact Lambert got in several players on £15-20+k per week in Keane, Quaner, Bree and still failed dismally to build a coherent team or improve what was here significantly, not Bilel Mohsni et al.
Let alone the fact that Lambert's squad was still full of decent Championship players who had been successful here under him from the youngsters who had already had a season or so at this level and he is still utilising such as Downes and Kenlock, right through to Skuse and Chambers.
Your last line comes down to whether you go with how the new recruits of both managers performed, or how Mick's critics promised they could and would. These were all second class Div 3 players billed as the cream of the division assembled by Hurst etc.
There is also the factor of balance in the relevant squads, as already said Mick had to be far more pragmatic and frugal. Whether people want to dismiss him and his achievement or not, it only serves to illustrate how good he was and how dismally far behind him Lambert came.
The proof is in this season and what he does with far more time and money, to get us back into Championship contention. |
Ignoring MM comparisons - "full of decent Championship players" is pushing it - Bart, Chambers, Knudsen, Skuse, Sears. If he'd inherited a side with two of Waghorn, Garner and Webster in on top of those I would agree, but he didn't.
Downes had played 10 games here the season before and spent the second part of the season in L2 (on the bench as often as he played). Kenlock was/is up and down like a yo-yo, you cannot call him a decent Championship player.
A fully fit Judge and Keane being available from game one may well have made a difference. Lambert's biggest issue was not getting the ship turned and momentum changed within the first few games - partially his fault but partially the hand he was dealt. | | | |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:14 - Jul 21 with 3558 views | BrixtonBlue |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:34 - Jul 21 by Mullet |
There's no angry there, or suggestion of it. J2 did the same thing then had the nuts to apologise. Why are you trying to paint me in a negative light after taking a couple of failed pops again like you did the other day? Interesting it's always the same.
I've literally listed the players and wages further up. You're just not very good at this, and if it was ever the other way around you'd be complaining and pointing fingers more vociferously than anyone. It's tedious.
I thought Phil had warned you lot all to pack this sort of behaviour in, maybe you didn't comprehend that either.
That's all you're getting here. |
I think you need to read what you write. You come across as angry, or at the least rude, and have been like it for years. If you feel like I'm out of line, feel free to report me to Phil. I'm just disagreeing that Mick had to be more frugal than Lambert, or that Lambert has/will have far more funds. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:20 - Jul 21 with 3538 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
In answer to the OP and with Friday evening as hindsight now, not yet. |  |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:21 - Jul 21 with 3536 views | Mullet |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 20:59 - Jul 21 by tractorboy1978 |
Ignoring MM comparisons - "full of decent Championship players" is pushing it - Bart, Chambers, Knudsen, Skuse, Sears. If he'd inherited a side with two of Waghorn, Garner and Webster in on top of those I would agree, but he didn't.
Downes had played 10 games here the season before and spent the second part of the season in L2 (on the bench as often as he played). Kenlock was/is up and down like a yo-yo, you cannot call him a decent Championship player.
A fully fit Judge and Keane being available from game one may well have made a difference. Lambert's biggest issue was not getting the ship turned and momentum changed within the first few games - partially his fault but partially the hand he was dealt. |
Who did Mick inherit equivalent to Waghorn, Garner and Webster, let alone all three? That's £15m or so of talent (thanks to Mick coincidentally).
Again your last line is telling. Mick even by the most dismissive reading had to the same problems if not worse, as we barely owned these players and succeeded, not only succeeded but far outstripped everything Lambert did, and many managers at other clubs in other similar states over the years.
It just doesn't add up to suggest anything else frankly. Hurst clearly overpaid for his players but the money he generated from sales wasn't close to spent before Lambert got here, and the loans he got in are testament to that.
The fact as we agree, he did so poorly with them is a separate debate anyway. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:17 - Jul 30 with 3238 views | The_Romford_Blue |
Still no CB or striker signed.
Four days til the season starts.
Now? | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:20 - Jul 30 with 3221 views | J2BLUE |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:17 - Jul 30 by The_Romford_Blue |
Still no CB or striker signed.
Four days til the season starts.
Now? |
I don't think it's time to panic. We have more than enough options for 1-2 matches. Over a season we obviously need more but i'll happily wait for the right players. The thing that is the issue is that usually, we go for cheap squad fillers and not players of the calibre we actually need. I just don't trust Evans to deliver the 2-3 players who would make us very confident of an assault on the top 2. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:23 - Jul 30 with 3201 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:20 - Jul 30 by J2BLUE |
I don't think it's time to panic. We have more than enough options for 1-2 matches. Over a season we obviously need more but i'll happily wait for the right players. The thing that is the issue is that usually, we go for cheap squad fillers and not players of the calibre we actually need. I just don't trust Evans to deliver the 2-3 players who would make us very confident of an assault on the top 2. |
But we don’t even have enough CBSs for the first match!
It’s incredible. | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:26 - Jul 30 with 3186 views | J2BLUE |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:23 - Jul 30 by The_Romford_Blue |
But we don’t even have enough CBSs for the first match!
It’s incredible. |
Donacien or Skuse can do a job there for one game. Is Chambers back for Sunderland? | |
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| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:28 - Jul 30 with 3181 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| At what point do we start to panic? on 21:26 - Jul 30 by J2BLUE |
Donacien or Skuse can do a job there for one game. Is Chambers back for Sunderland? |
Donacien as a CB.. maybe in a 5 at the back. But not 4-4-2.
Skuse at CB Zia terrifying.
No idea on Chambers tbh | |
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