| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 10:45 - Nov 17 with 2265 views | StokieBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 17:14 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont |
I thought it was pretty clear with the examples given before. But say, for example, you get a state visit from Trump it doesn't mean you are a misogynist, racist, climate change denier. There is though more realistically simply recognising his role as the de facto representative of the USA. Although, we should have given him the cold shoulder because even on that score he's a terrible and divisive representative.
The culture aspect is purely that a lot of these Middle East and other representatives have beliefs and values that do not fit in modern society. But that's just reality and isolation doesn't help, quite the opposite.
Re: Livingstone, I said they were offensive comments. But I don't think they were antisemitic. He didn't bring up German war criminals because he was speaking to a Jewish reporter. But pushing on with the analogy after hearing that was offensive and rude.
You can accuse me of driving a narrative if you want but I am addressing the detail. When you do that to the same scale or at least be even-handed enough to challenge the opposite narrative then you might have a claim to objectivity here. My tumbleweed avatar isn't just about the usual suspects ducking facts. |
Sorry for the late reply. I was going to let this pass but your last paragraph really annoyed me. I think I am pretty even-handed with evidence and detail so I resent your implication. I have said in this very thread that I don't think that Labour is institutionally antisemitic.
Let's take a look at your post for balance:
I thought it was pretty clear with the examples given before. But say, for example, you get a state visit from Trump it doesn't mean you are a misogynist, racist, climate change denier. There is though more realistically simply recognising his role as the de facto representative of the USA. Although, we should have given him the cold shoulder because even on that score he's a terrible and divisive representative.
This is a false equivalence. You are comparing the leader of the US to academic scholars in the ME. Both might be distasteful but one you unfortunately have to greet due to diplomatic and economic norms, the other you simply don't. To say they are the same is not balanced in any way. Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi might be an influential scholar but we don't need to accept him in this country and Livingstone doesn't need to be pushing for him to come here and spread his word.
Would you apply the same equivalence to inviting horrible right-wing scholars and commentators to the UK?
The culture aspect is purely that a lot of these Middle East and other representatives have beliefs and values that do not fit in modern society. But that's just reality and isolation doesn't help, quite the opposite.
Do you have an example where not isolating them has lead to them changing their beliefs? Giving them a platform to possibly convert more people to their "beliefs and values" doesn't seem like something we need to do as a country.
re: Livingstone, I said they were offensive comments. But I don't think they were antisemitic. He didn't bring up German war criminals because he was speaking to a Jewish reporter. But pushing on with the analogy after hearing that was offensive and rude.
You said he was "borderline" offensive. I think most people would see that statement as meaning not really offensive. Now you are saying he was offensive and stating that was your original position which is wasn't. He knew the reporter was Jewish before he made the comments (source: The Independent) so I'd say it was slightly more than offensive.
I think you are often guilty of exactly what you accuse others of doing when what they say or cite doesn't agree with your views. We all have internal bias including myself and you. I don't really want to argue about it though. I guess we just differ in our interpretations of the evidence in this case.
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| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:29 - Nov 17 with 2241 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 10:45 - Nov 17 by StokieBlue |
Sorry for the late reply. I was going to let this pass but your last paragraph really annoyed me. I think I am pretty even-handed with evidence and detail so I resent your implication. I have said in this very thread that I don't think that Labour is institutionally antisemitic.
Let's take a look at your post for balance:
I thought it was pretty clear with the examples given before. But say, for example, you get a state visit from Trump it doesn't mean you are a misogynist, racist, climate change denier. There is though more realistically simply recognising his role as the de facto representative of the USA. Although, we should have given him the cold shoulder because even on that score he's a terrible and divisive representative.
This is a false equivalence. You are comparing the leader of the US to academic scholars in the ME. Both might be distasteful but one you unfortunately have to greet due to diplomatic and economic norms, the other you simply don't. To say they are the same is not balanced in any way. Dr Yusuf al-Qaradawi might be an influential scholar but we don't need to accept him in this country and Livingstone doesn't need to be pushing for him to come here and spread his word.
Would you apply the same equivalence to inviting horrible right-wing scholars and commentators to the UK?
The culture aspect is purely that a lot of these Middle East and other representatives have beliefs and values that do not fit in modern society. But that's just reality and isolation doesn't help, quite the opposite.
Do you have an example where not isolating them has lead to them changing their beliefs? Giving them a platform to possibly convert more people to their "beliefs and values" doesn't seem like something we need to do as a country.
re: Livingstone, I said they were offensive comments. But I don't think they were antisemitic. He didn't bring up German war criminals because he was speaking to a Jewish reporter. But pushing on with the analogy after hearing that was offensive and rude.
You said he was "borderline" offensive. I think most people would see that statement as meaning not really offensive. Now you are saying he was offensive and stating that was your original position which is wasn't. He knew the reporter was Jewish before he made the comments (source: The Independent) so I'd say it was slightly more than offensive.
I think you are often guilty of exactly what you accuse others of doing when what they say or cite doesn't agree with your views. We all have internal bias including myself and you. I don't really want to argue about it though. I guess we just differ in our interpretations of the evidence in this case.
SB |
Hmmm. When I see you have a go at the main narrative for playing fast and loose with the facts then I'll believe you on that score. And you yourself have ducked evidence on a couple of occasions saying you'll have a look and then nothing ...
Yes, we see it differently but I on't think either is claiming it's black and white either. And I'm not defending Livingstone because I do think he's unnecessarily provocative and rude to his opponents. But I do take issue with the immediate characterisation of that as antisemitic. For instance, the transcript of the German war criminal exchange doesn't suggest he knew (or are you saying he's acting?). Similarly you don't accuse him of being a homophobe or misogynist for inviting those scholars so why is he an antisemite through that?
But he was suspended from the party in any case, which is fair enough given he showed no signs of stopping being deliberately provocative in his defence and that's where the borderline aspect comes in.
You're keen to set the record straight (as you see it) when I've talked about Livingstone and the case for him being antisemitic. Yet you've otherwise sat back and watched how Labour antisemitism has been blown out of all proportion for political and ideological purposes. So forgive me if I'm also really annoyed with the way you respond to it on here while claiming balance. |  |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:37 - Nov 17 with 2195 views | GlasgowBlue |
Hurrah!!! A Jewish voice supporting Corbyn. Next we have Mr Raheem Kassam on how many of Nigel Farage's very best friend's have Brown skin.
This is tokenism at it's very worst. 87% of British Jews surveyed believe Corbyn to be an antisemite. 47% of British Jews will consider leaving the country if Corbyn becomes PM. Yet every so often a token Jew is wheeled out as evidence that Labour's antisemitism problems are just party political smears.
I believe it was Rashida Tlaib who once said that tokenism is a form of racism when every so often an African American was wheeled out to speak in support of Donald Trump.
Meanwhile the EHRC belive that they have enough evidence of institutional antisemitism in the Labour party to launch a statutory investigation, he first of a political party since the BNP and almost daily a Labour candidate at this coming general election is outed for making antisemitic comments.
The latest? This charming lady who set up a secret facebook group advising Labour party Holocaust deniers and antisemites.
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:39 - Nov 17 with 2199 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:37 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Hurrah!!! A Jewish voice supporting Corbyn. Next we have Mr Raheem Kassam on how many of Nigel Farage's very best friend's have Brown skin.
This is tokenism at it's very worst. 87% of British Jews surveyed believe Corbyn to be an antisemite. 47% of British Jews will consider leaving the country if Corbyn becomes PM. Yet every so often a token Jew is wheeled out as evidence that Labour's antisemitism problems are just party political smears.
I believe it was Rashida Tlaib who once said that tokenism is a form of racism when every so often an African American was wheeled out to speak in support of Donald Trump.
Meanwhile the EHRC belive that they have enough evidence of institutional antisemitism in the Labour party to launch a statutory investigation, he first of a political party since the BNP and almost daily a Labour candidate at this coming general election is outed for making antisemitic comments.
The latest? This charming lady who set up a secret facebook group advising Labour party Holocaust deniers and antisemites.
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Stokie? Fancy a go? | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 17:47 - Nov 17 with 2019 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:39 - Nov 17 by Darth_Koont |
Stokie? Fancy a go? |
H DK I see Hope Not Hate have joined the EHRC and the Jewish Labour Movement as part of the Tory smear machine.
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 18:02 - Nov 17 with 2009 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 17:47 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
H DK I see Hope Not Hate have joined the EHRC and the Jewish Labour Movement as part of the Tory smear machine.
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I saw this and thought it looked a fairly open/shut case based on what was presented. However, her response (including evidence of the stuff she's said over the years) is also worth considering.
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 18:04 - Nov 17 with 2005 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 11:37 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Hurrah!!! A Jewish voice supporting Corbyn. Next we have Mr Raheem Kassam on how many of Nigel Farage's very best friend's have Brown skin.
This is tokenism at it's very worst. 87% of British Jews surveyed believe Corbyn to be an antisemite. 47% of British Jews will consider leaving the country if Corbyn becomes PM. Yet every so often a token Jew is wheeled out as evidence that Labour's antisemitism problems are just party political smears.
I believe it was Rashida Tlaib who once said that tokenism is a form of racism when every so often an African American was wheeled out to speak in support of Donald Trump.
Meanwhile the EHRC belive that they have enough evidence of institutional antisemitism in the Labour party to launch a statutory investigation, he first of a political party since the BNP and almost daily a Labour candidate at this coming general election is outed for making antisemitic comments.
The latest? This charming lady who set up a secret facebook group advising Labour party Holocaust deniers and antisemites.
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And you clearly feel those percentages are well grounded in their fears that Corbyn is the next Hitler.
It is not tokenism. It is a Jewish author making points that there elements of the media using these claims of anti-Semitism as a political tool. "it bothers me deeply when I see antisemitism become drained of meaning for the sake of narrow political advantage."
Of course, the media could be right he could be a dangerous communist anti-Semmite. I just feel the media is a little too ready to jump on every detail they can to discredit him. That said, there is ammunition there, as there is plenty that could be fired at the lying racist Johnson. |  |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 18:29 - Nov 17 with 1988 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 17:47 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
H DK I see Hope Not Hate have joined the EHRC and the Jewish Labour Movement as part of the Tory smear machine.
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Hi GB.
I see you're till making dubious appeals to authority while ignoring the evidence. If Hope not Hate had been as forensic in their approach to the evidence of Labour antisemitism as it is with exposing far-right hate then I'd take that on board.
They just seem to repeat the accusations. | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:14 - Nov 17 with 1918 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 18:02 - Nov 17 by Clapham_Junction |
I saw this and thought it looked a fairly open/shut case based on what was presented. However, her response (including evidence of the stuff she's said over the years) is also worth considering.
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“When I noticed the group begin to focus on antisemitism I left it” Hmmm.
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:20 - Nov 17 with 1914 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 18:29 - Nov 17 by Darth_Koont |
Hi GB.
I see you're till making dubious appeals to authority while ignoring the evidence. If Hope not Hate had been as forensic in their approach to the evidence of Labour antisemitism as it is with exposing far-right hate then I'd take that on board.
They just seem to repeat the accusations. |
You really are priceless. You’re accusing Hope Not Hate of being biased against Labour. | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:41 - Nov 17 with 1895 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:20 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
You really are priceless. You’re accusing Hope Not Hate of being biased against Labour. |
GB, who is on the board of Hope Not Hate? |  | | |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:43 - Nov 17 with 1891 views | Darth_Koont |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:20 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
You really are priceless. You’re accusing Hope Not Hate of being biased against Labour. |
No, I'm accusing them of not addressing it in enough detail. Retweeting a highly flawed Daily Mail article is a case in point.
It's uncritically repeating and retweeting accusations that have caused the AVERAGE member of the public to think the problem is 300 times greater than it really is. Hell, if I thought the problem was 300 times greater then I'd consider packing my bags too.
I think it's shameful to make political capital out of people's fears while stoking it for greater effect. | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:55 - Nov 17 with 1862 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:41 - Nov 17 by Bluesquid |
GB, who is on the board of Hope Not Hate? |
Go on. This should be interesting. | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 21:16 - Nov 17 with 1844 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:55 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Go on. This should be interesting. |
Well let me put it this way, she hasn't got an axe to grind with Corbyn has she?
Oh no. | | | |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:10 - Nov 17 with 1800 views | bournemouthblue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 20:43 - Nov 17 by Darth_Koont |
No, I'm accusing them of not addressing it in enough detail. Retweeting a highly flawed Daily Mail article is a case in point.
It's uncritically repeating and retweeting accusations that have caused the AVERAGE member of the public to think the problem is 300 times greater than it really is. Hell, if I thought the problem was 300 times greater then I'd consider packing my bags too.
I think it's shameful to make political capital out of people's fears while stoking it for greater effect. |
As I have said before, racism of all sorts should be rooted out and held to account
Again, there are a considerable number of racists out there who get away with it and frankly, there are some bodies and organisations who deliberately play to it for their own political advantage
There are media outlets who deliberately play on it, seeking to divide people to suit the owners of their outlet
Whether any political party genuinely wants to tackle it or even has the understanding how to deal with it will always be debatable
In the long run it boils down to education and understanding, something I don't see coming along any time soon sadly |  |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:19 - Nov 17 with 1790 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 21:16 - Nov 17 by Bluesquid |
Well let me put it this way, she hasn't got an axe to grind with Corbyn has she?
Oh no. |
Just to be clear here. You are impugning the integrity of Hope Not Hate with regards to Labour antisemitism? This is where we are now? | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:24 - Nov 17 with 1782 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:19 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Just to be clear here. You are impugning the integrity of Hope Not Hate with regards to Labour antisemitism? This is where we are now? |
lol, pretending that you don't know who it is. | | | |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:37 - Nov 17 with 1767 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:24 - Nov 17 by Bluesquid |
lol, pretending that you don't know who it is. |
Again, I’ll ask the question. Are you impugning the integrity of Hope snot Hate with regards to Labour antisemitism?
I mean why don’t you just come out and say what you mean? Don’t be coy. | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:42 - Nov 17 with 1764 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:37 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
Again, I’ll ask the question. Are you impugning the integrity of Hope snot Hate with regards to Labour antisemitism?
I mean why don’t you just come out and say what you mean? Don’t be coy. |
Well they are only as good as their directors and one them has a major axe to grind with Corbyn as you well know. | | | |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:44 - Nov 17 with 1756 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:42 - Nov 17 by Bluesquid |
Well they are only as good as their directors and one them has a major axe to grind with Corbyn as you well know. |
What won’t you just say what you mean and name names? | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:47 - Nov 17 with 1753 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:44 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
What won’t you just say what you mean and name names? |
Smeeth is a director at Hope Not Hate. | | | |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:51 - Nov 17 with 1746 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:47 - Nov 17 by Bluesquid |
Smeeth is a director at Hope Not Hate. |
“Smeeth” has a first name. It’s Ruth. Ruth Smeeth was a director of HNH between 2010 and 2015 but not any longer.
Ar yiu suggesting that HNH are compromised because a Jewish Labour MP as formerly a member of their board? | |
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 00:02 - Nov 18 with 1739 views | Bluesquid |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 23:51 - Nov 17 by GlasgowBlue |
“Smeeth” has a first name. It’s Ruth. Ruth Smeeth was a director of HNH between 2010 and 2015 but not any longer.
Ar yiu suggesting that HNH are compromised because a Jewish Labour MP as formerly a member of their board? |
Go check wiki and 'They work for you'
"8. Miscellaneous
I have been a board member of Hope Not Hate Ltd since 19 May 2015. (Registered 05 June 2015)"
Very possible that she could use her influence as a current member of the board so that HNH act in a biased way against Labour. | | | |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 07:43 - Nov 18 with 1669 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 00:02 - Nov 18 by Bluesquid |
Go check wiki and 'They work for you'
"8. Miscellaneous
I have been a board member of Hope Not Hate Ltd since 19 May 2015. (Registered 05 June 2015)"
Very possible that she could use her influence as a current member of the board so that HNH act in a biased way against Labour. |
And we got there in the end. A Jewish woman on the board of HNH using a position of power with the group to act in a biased manner against Labour with regards to Antisemitism.
Hope Not Hate are now part of the smear campaign against Corbyn. [Post edited 18 Nov 2019 8:03]
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| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 08:12 - Nov 18 with 1640 views | artsbossbeard |
| Corbyn article from a Jew may be of interest on 08:59 - Nov 16 by artsbossbeard |
Obviously fake news.
International break - check.
More time to find loads of twitter posts to counter this - check.
Busy time for Phil - Check. |
Anyone want my lottery numbers for this week? |  |
| Please note: prior to hitting the post button, I've double checked for anything that could be construed as "Anti Semitic" and to the best of my knowledge it isn't. Anything deemed to be of a Xenophobic nature is therefore purely accidental or down to your own misconstruing. | | Poll: | Raining in IP8 - shall I get the washing in? |
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