| I give up! 15:35 - Feb 3 with 4219 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
I’ve tried working it out and I just can’t.
Will Norris.
We know that there is a clause in the loan arrangement and that he has to play a proportion of the games. But we signed him at the start of the season and proceeded to use him in 3 of the first 16 matches, which were all in the League Cup and EFL Trophy.
So at this point we already knew about the clause. Presumably though, we decided that we could presumably live with it and that we’d simply play the best keeper.
Then things get weird. We lost two games in four days, after going eleven unbeaten from the start of the season. I wouldn’t say Holy played badly at all. So I looked at the TWTD ratings for the Accrington match where Holy was our second highest rated player. In the Rotherham match he was our joint second highest rated player in an all-round bad performance.
This is where he gets dropped. Norris comes in, does alright and Holy takes over as the cup keeper until the 2-2 draw with Blackpool where Norris is dropped for Holy. Tomas comes into the team, gets MOTM according to TWTD and is promptly dropped again, despite being superb and saving Jacobson’s late penalty.
In comes Norris again, leaving Holy as the cup keeper. In the FA Cup replay defeat to Coventry, Holy gets MOTM again so keeps his place for the visit of Bristol Rovers in the league. He is rated as average in that match, so having got MOTM and then an average performance, he is once again dropped.
Norris has retained the position ever since despite conceding five at Lincoln, a couple of which were on him, gifting Wycombe and equaliser, flapping against Rotherham and palming the ball upwards for them to win it and then shipping four to Posh, including a f***ing howler.
During this run of ten matches with Norris in the sticks, Holy played once, at Exeter in the Trophy — where he was MOTM!
The stats will show that both have featured 19 times this season. Holy has conceded 16 and Norris 23. Holy has 9 clean sheets to Norris’ 6. From memory - errors leading to goals Holy 1 maybe, Norris 5 or 6.
I could have made sense of it all if Norris had started the season and it was clearly financial. But what has happened between us being top of the league and then second, but 7 points clear of third with games in hand with Holy putting in MOTM performances and keeping 6 clean sheets in 7 matches, to then being dropped and barely getting his place back, aside from when he did against Wycombe where he got man of the match and was still dropped?
We are a League One club so there seems no way we’ve paid even £250k to loan Norris. More likely we’ve paid his wages or some of them and agreed we pick up more if he doesn’t play. But why did that not bother us early in the season and now, when he is costing us goals, wins and points, he is seemingly undroppable.
Can anyone actually work this out?
In fact it's almost as strange as giving a manager, who has won 1 game in 15 in a division where that would be deemed bad form for Bolton, a 5 year deal, a contract surely longer than any other League One manager has ever been given, presumably also a record financial amount. Defies belief.
Holy 0 1 2 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 0 2 2* 1 /0 /0* 2 /2* /2
Norris 3 1 0 1 0 0 2* 1 1* 1 0 5 1 1 0 1 0 1 4
- Number denotes goals conceded
/ denotes MOTM
* point at which they were dropped from a league match for the next one [Post edited 3 Feb 2020 15:40]
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| I give up! on 15:44 - Feb 3 with 4138 views | Herbivore |
It's baffling. There are a few on here who have a big thing for Norris for some reason but I just don't see it. He's error prone and not very convincing and he's not even our goalie. Holy looks much more assured and is actually a Town player. It makes no sense at all. |  |
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| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 with 4142 views | Kieran_Knows |
I said it the other week, but I read an article a few months ago that a lot of make up in loan deals is that if the club that is loaning the player plays them, they don't pay the parent club anything. If they're sat on the bench or not making the 18, they then pick up their weekly wage/penalty fee's each time.
Obviously every deal is different, and may not be the case with Norris, but could possibly go to explaining as to why he is playing (3rd choice Prem keeper I would imagine is on £10k a week?). |  |
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| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 with 4131 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| I give up! on 15:44 - Feb 3 by Herbivore |
It's baffling. There are a few on here who have a big thing for Norris for some reason but I just don't see it. He's error prone and not very convincing and he's not even our goalie. Holy looks much more assured and is actually a Town player. It makes no sense at all. |
It's interesting that he seems to have played exactly 50% of our games this season. I wonder if that's the threshold.
If it is then what was the plan after 3 games in 16 at the start of the season? Either we were prepared to take the hit on the money if Holy did well or we were planning to use Norris for half the games regardless.
In the first scenario, we have replaced Holy for no reason having accepted the penalties and in the second it is utterly mad to have regularly dropped a player playing much better. | |
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| I give up! on 15:49 - Feb 3 with 4094 views | Herbivore |
| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 by Kieran_Knows |
I said it the other week, but I read an article a few months ago that a lot of make up in loan deals is that if the club that is loaning the player plays them, they don't pay the parent club anything. If they're sat on the bench or not making the 18, they then pick up their weekly wage/penalty fee's each time.
Obviously every deal is different, and may not be the case with Norris, but could possibly go to explaining as to why he is playing (3rd choice Prem keeper I would imagine is on £10k a week?). |
The thing with that though is that we played a quarter of the season before giving him a league start, so either that's not how the deal is structured or we decided we didn't care about paying up for it. | |
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| I give up! on 15:49 - Feb 3 with 4103 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 by Kieran_Knows |
I said it the other week, but I read an article a few months ago that a lot of make up in loan deals is that if the club that is loaning the player plays them, they don't pay the parent club anything. If they're sat on the bench or not making the 18, they then pick up their weekly wage/penalty fee's each time.
Obviously every deal is different, and may not be the case with Norris, but could possibly go to explaining as to why he is playing (3rd choice Prem keeper I would imagine is on £10k a week?). |
I get that.
But when we signed him that deal was put in place and so we were losing £10k a week (if we assume that's what it is) every week until November and we were top of the league.
So he then decides it's getting costly and drops Holy for Norris saving us this £10k. So why when Norris does okay at first does he drop him for Wycombe? Surely that's not just for Akinfenwa?!
At that point surely he gives Norris a run and doesn't drop him and takes the saving on the loan fee.
Lambert has dropped both of them regularly after good games and stuck with Norris regularly after bad games. It's absolutely mental. | |
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| Shambert said something about that.... on 15:51 - Feb 3 with 4084 views | Bloots |
| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 by Kieran_Knows |
I said it the other week, but I read an article a few months ago that a lot of make up in loan deals is that if the club that is loaning the player plays them, they don't pay the parent club anything. If they're sat on the bench or not making the 18, they then pick up their weekly wage/penalty fee's each time.
Obviously every deal is different, and may not be the case with Norris, but could possibly go to explaining as to why he is playing (3rd choice Prem keeper I would imagine is on £10k a week?). |
....last week.
He mumbled something barely coherant about clubs only offering players if they were guaranteed starters, otherwise there were financial penalties.
He said something like "we aren't doing that". Maybe he just missed off the word "again" at the end.
It could be that.
Or he could just be a clueless budgie turd. |  |
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| I give up! on 15:52 - Feb 3 with 4077 views | Parsley |
| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 by WarkTheWarkITFC |
It's interesting that he seems to have played exactly 50% of our games this season. I wonder if that's the threshold.
If it is then what was the plan after 3 games in 16 at the start of the season? Either we were prepared to take the hit on the money if Holy did well or we were planning to use Norris for half the games regardless.
In the first scenario, we have replaced Holy for no reason having accepted the penalties and in the second it is utterly mad to have regularly dropped a player playing much better. |
I think Norris was brought in to be number one, but there was never a reason to drop Holy until the run of cup games gave Norris a chance. Then there was this weird rotation of the keepers which is not something I've seen before and since then Norris has had the shirt. Possibly this is to catch him back up to the 'minimum % of appearances'? |  | | |
| Shambert said something about that.... on 15:55 - Feb 3 with 4050 views | Herbivore |
| Shambert said something about that.... on 15:51 - Feb 3 by Bloots |
....last week.
He mumbled something barely coherant about clubs only offering players if they were guaranteed starters, otherwise there were financial penalties.
He said something like "we aren't doing that". Maybe he just missed off the word "again" at the end.
It could be that.
Or he could just be a clueless budgie turd. |
I seem to remember him saying something earlier in the season that suggested that we were under no compulsion to play Norris. That said, it's hard to imagine why else we're still playing Norris as it can't be for footballing reasons. | |
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| I give up! on 15:56 - Feb 3 with 4054 views | Wickets |
| I give up! on 15:47 - Feb 3 by Kieran_Knows |
I said it the other week, but I read an article a few months ago that a lot of make up in loan deals is that if the club that is loaning the player plays them, they don't pay the parent club anything. If they're sat on the bench or not making the 18, they then pick up their weekly wage/penalty fee's each time.
Obviously every deal is different, and may not be the case with Norris, but could possibly go to explaining as to why he is playing (3rd choice Prem keeper I would imagine is on £10k a week?). |
Last week (31 Jan ) i started a thread following quotes from PL regarding loans he said something like some loans from PL clubs have massive bills attached to them if you dont play the player ! must say it made me wonder if we did not realise this sort of clause had been added to the Norris loan if indeed it is in it , and have caught a cold !! |  | | |
| Agreed, hence I gave..... on 15:59 - Feb 3 with 4021 views | Bloots |
| Shambert said something about that.... on 15:55 - Feb 3 by Herbivore |
I seem to remember him saying something earlier in the season that suggested that we were under no compulsion to play Norris. That said, it's hard to imagine why else we're still playing Norris as it can't be for footballing reasons. |
....an alternative reason for the decision. | |
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| I give up! on 19:34 - Feb 3 with 3872 views | Oxford_Blue |
Don’t make Norris a scapegoat.
He made some excellent saves on Saturday.
He made one terrible mistake. It didn’t lose us the game. We would have been beaten anyway by a much better side on the day.
He showed resilience to bounce back. | | | |
| I give up! on 20:34 - Feb 3 with 3800 views | DinnernotTea |
| I give up! on 19:34 - Feb 3 by Oxford_Blue |
Don’t make Norris a scapegoat.
He made some excellent saves on Saturday.
He made one terrible mistake. It didn’t lose us the game. We would have been beaten anyway by a much better side on the day.
He showed resilience to bounce back. |
You're a very strange character to the obvious. | |
| Beware of The Ipswich Cabbages
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| I give up! on 20:59 - Feb 3 with 3702 views | WarkTheWarkITFC |
| I give up! on 19:34 - Feb 3 by Oxford_Blue |
Don’t make Norris a scapegoat.
He made some excellent saves on Saturday.
He made one terrible mistake. It didn’t lose us the game. We would have been beaten anyway by a much better side on the day.
He showed resilience to bounce back. |
What about Wycombe where his mistake cost us 2 points?
Or Rotherham where it was 1 point.
Or Lincoln where his 2 errors cost us 1 point.
Why can’t I blame him for mistakes he’s made when Lambert can drop Holy after a man of the match performance? | |
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| I give up! on 21:30 - Feb 3 with 3601 views | Herbivore |
| I give up! on 19:34 - Feb 3 by Oxford_Blue |
Don’t make Norris a scapegoat.
He made some excellent saves on Saturday.
He made one terrible mistake. It didn’t lose us the game. We would have been beaten anyway by a much better side on the day.
He showed resilience to bounce back. |
Pretty sure you're just trolling now. | |
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| I give up! on 22:09 - Feb 3 with 3509 views | lazyblue |
| I give up! on 19:34 - Feb 3 by Oxford_Blue |
Don’t make Norris a scapegoat.
He made some excellent saves on Saturday.
He made one terrible mistake. It didn’t lose us the game. We would have been beaten anyway by a much better side on the day.
He showed resilience to bounce back. |
Don’t agree as a 0-1 you are still in the game and really it wasn’t that bad but with the Norris error the whole game changed including the atmosphere and we were never coming back from that. | | | |
| I give up! on 22:09 - Feb 3 with 3507 views | JDB23 |
It's quite straight forward actually, we are run by clowns. Hope this helps. | | | |
| I give up! on 07:14 - Feb 4 with 3352 views | Chrisd |
| I give up! on 19:34 - Feb 3 by Oxford_Blue |
Don’t make Norris a scapegoat.
He made some excellent saves on Saturday.
He made one terrible mistake. It didn’t lose us the game. We would have been beaten anyway by a much better side on the day.
He showed resilience to bounce back. |
Look at the comparison between him and Pym on Saturday. Appreciate Norris made a horrible mistake and that would've no doubt knocked his confidence, but Pym was just so assured from the first whistle. Any through balls he was off his line like a flash and crosses into the box each one he came for and caught, decisive with his decision making. Pym impressed me with the little he did. He looked reliable and did things without the need to look flash. There was an earlier incident in the game with the score 0-0, when Chambers was chaperoning the ball back for Norris to collect, Norris stayed where we was, he eventually came but that incident set the tone, just creates indecision between the defenders and the keeper. Although Norris does make decent stops (that's what he's paid to do), there's so many aspects of his game that he's lacking. | |
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| I give up! on 08:32 - Feb 4 with 3265 views | itfcjoe |
There isn't much between them, but there are two issues with that:
- When Norris has made mistakes he's been punished, Holy hasn't and being a lucky goalkeeper is sometimes better than being a good goalkeeper
- Holy has never deserved to be dropped.
Holy been harshly treated, he should be starting |  |
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| I give up! on 08:41 - Feb 4 with 3249 views | portmanking |
| I give up! on 08:32 - Feb 4 by itfcjoe |
There isn't much between them, but there are two issues with that:
- When Norris has made mistakes he's been punished, Holy hasn't and being a lucky goalkeeper is sometimes better than being a good goalkeeper
- Holy has never deserved to be dropped.
Holy been harshly treated, he should be starting |
You have to hope that this hasn't dented Holy's confidence in some way. Because, as you rightly say, he did nothing to merit being dropped for this length of time. The fact that the financial terms of loan deals are dictating our team selection is frankly one of the reasons why the game has gone as we know it. | | | |
| I give up! on 09:20 - Feb 4 with 3174 views | JimmyJazz |
One possibility not mentioned is that at some stage this season Wolves let it be known that Norris wasn't in their plans and he would be available in the summer
PL realises that a keeper that had only featured in cup games wasn't exactly going to rush to sign up for more of that and felt
a, he needed to get him more involved
b, wanted a better look at how he did if given more game time
If this is the case though
a, Norris will know he isn't exactly loved here
b, PL will now know he's error prone |  |
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| I give up! on 09:30 - Feb 4 with 3138 views | No9 |
Another of those imponderable questions like - why did Bart go from being one of the best, if not the best GK in division 2 to just another GK making the fans dislike him | | | |
| I give up! on 14:16 - Feb 4 with 2982 views | PositivelyPortman |
| I give up! on 09:20 - Feb 4 by JimmyJazz |
One possibility not mentioned is that at some stage this season Wolves let it be known that Norris wasn't in their plans and he would be available in the summer
PL realises that a keeper that had only featured in cup games wasn't exactly going to rush to sign up for more of that and felt
a, he needed to get him more involved
b, wanted a better look at how he did if given more game time
If this is the case though
a, Norris will know he isn't exactly loved here
b, PL will now know he's error prone |
C, get rid of him ASAP. |  |
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