| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today 08:12 - May 28 with 6757 views | Steve_M |
The bleak numbers should not hide the number of individual tragedies within, years of productive life lost, people unable to say goodbye to relatives or mourn them properly.
With an important caveat for those countries who are lying about deaths the UK has the worst per capita death toll, and the second highest in globally.
https://www.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c259-4ca4-9a82-648ffde71bf0
Should be free to read. |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:48 - May 28 with 2416 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:40 - May 28 by BrixtonBlue |
You think our scientists are more likely to be wrong than Boris and his cronies? |
where did i say that?
do you agree that you have to assess the government's decisions on the basis of the expert advice that it received? |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:52 - May 28 with 2399 views | BrixtonBlue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:48 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
where did i say that?
do you agree that you have to assess the government's decisions on the basis of the expert advice that it received? |
I didn't say you said that, I asked you a question. |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:01 - May 28 with 2392 views | Darth_Koont |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:12 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
when the inquiry into all of this takes place, along with questions about PPE and care homes, the critical question will be whether the government followed the expert advice about the timing of the lockdown. if they didn't then they are greatly at fault.
i don't recall people saying that the first government announcement on 16th march was too weak - it was reported as being a dramatic and life changing move. but all that really matters is what the expert advice was at that time. we don't yet know that. |
The problem is that the expert advice about the timing of the lockdown draws on lots of different disciplines plus knowledge of preparedness re: PPE supplies, personnel etc. Even data on the impact of a lockdown on the economy and subsequent long-term social and health effects.
It's a global picture that ultimately politicians need to understand and take responsibility for. But modern politicians, and these clowns in particular, just aren't trained or encouraged to do that. Such a picture is beyond their competence and certainly beyond their narrow interests.
And as a result, I'll bet my house they've been following the individual bits of science that most match their competence and their own interests. |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:26 - May 28 with 2354 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:01 - May 28 by Darth_Koont |
The problem is that the expert advice about the timing of the lockdown draws on lots of different disciplines plus knowledge of preparedness re: PPE supplies, personnel etc. Even data on the impact of a lockdown on the economy and subsequent long-term social and health effects.
It's a global picture that ultimately politicians need to understand and take responsibility for. But modern politicians, and these clowns in particular, just aren't trained or encouraged to do that. Such a picture is beyond their competence and certainly beyond their narrow interests.
And as a result, I'll bet my house they've been following the individual bits of science that most match their competence and their own interests. |
it comes down to making a judgement based on expert advice which covers a range of, potentially conflicting, issues. and it's a judgement formed in a situation with high level of risk and uncertainty - and often quite radical uncertainty. even following expert advice there isn't going o be one correct answer - the expert advice by itself is very rarely going to give one definitive answer. the test therefore is, based upon the expert advice available to it, did the the government reach a reasonable judgement, accepting that there may have been other judgements which would also have been reasonable. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:28 - May 28 with 2359 views | BlueBadger |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:43 - May 28 by Herbivore |
Yeah, I recall a lot of uncertainty still particularly from those working in the hospitality sector. BBC Breakfast the following day certainly had a lot of confused people on there querying whether or not things were actually shutting down. The pubs and restaurants stayed open for a further 4 days before closing their doors on the Friday and plenty of people were still frequenting them. The messaging has only been clear and unequivocal fairly sporadically, which may be a contributing factor in us having the highest mortality rate in the world now. |
The more I reflect on this the more the utter spunking of our 3(ISH) WEEK 'grace period' between here and mainland Europe rankles. We could have been planning for lockdown and saying 'we don't want to do this but here's how it'll work if we do', implementing propr distancing in supermarkets, actually being grown-up about dealing with the EU in sourcing kit, engaging far better with lab service providers, planning tracking and testing and thinking about supporting people through a lockdown.
None of it happened.
Blood on their hands through arrogance, ignorance and incompetence. [Post edited 28 May 2020 14:06]
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:30 - May 28 with 2349 views | Libero |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:28 - May 28 by BlueBadger |
The more I reflect on this the more the utter spunking of our 3(ISH) WEEK 'grace period' between here and mainland Europe rankles. We could have been planning for lockdown and saying 'we don't want to do this but here's how it'll work if we do', implementing propr distancing in supermarkets, actually being grown-up about dealing with the EU in sourcing kit, engaging far better with lab service providers, planning tracking and testing and thinking about supporting people through a lockdown.
None of it happened.
Blood on their hands through arrogance, ignorance and incompetence. [Post edited 28 May 2020 14:06]
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Instead while Johnson should have been implementing this he was on Television telling the country it's still okay to shake hands and that he'd been in various hospitals doing exactly that... |  | | |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:37 - May 28 with 2337 views | Sharkey |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:01 - May 28 by Darth_Koont |
The problem is that the expert advice about the timing of the lockdown draws on lots of different disciplines plus knowledge of preparedness re: PPE supplies, personnel etc. Even data on the impact of a lockdown on the economy and subsequent long-term social and health effects.
It's a global picture that ultimately politicians need to understand and take responsibility for. But modern politicians, and these clowns in particular, just aren't trained or encouraged to do that. Such a picture is beyond their competence and certainly beyond their narrow interests.
And as a result, I'll bet my house they've been following the individual bits of science that most match their competence and their own interests. |
I tend to agree with this. In Sweden there is beginning to be talk that the huge difference between figures in Stockholm and in Skåne in the south, which has a population of 1.5 million and which has had the same amount of deaths as the average for the last twenty years (i.e. no 'excess deaths), is not just to do with the fact that Stockholm had a large number of cases coming in from Italy at the outset, nor the fact that Stockholm has a large Somali population which typically lives and socialises in very big family groups and works in high-risk occupations ( e.g. health, public transport); it's beginning to claimed that it's because in the south the communication between the regional and city authorities has been much better, and between the region and its neighbouring regions. In other words, these southern regions have shared supplies and expertise better than in the north, ignoring party-political differences.
Having said that all that, the authorities here never neglect to stress that the virus may still be set to do its worst here in the south, and nobody is counting any chickens. |  | | |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:37 - May 28 with 2334 views | Guthrum |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:26 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
it comes down to making a judgement based on expert advice which covers a range of, potentially conflicting, issues. and it's a judgement formed in a situation with high level of risk and uncertainty - and often quite radical uncertainty. even following expert advice there isn't going o be one correct answer - the expert advice by itself is very rarely going to give one definitive answer. the test therefore is, based upon the expert advice available to it, did the the government reach a reasonable judgement, accepting that there may have been other judgements which would also have been reasonable. |
On that specific aspect, it is correct. The Government, as non-experts, are reliant on the advice they are given. Which is, itself, filtered through layers and hierarchies of experts. After all, the chief advisers will have advisers of their own, somewhere below which are the teams doing the actual research and analysis. At all stages people will be making decisions on who and what to regard as credible and worth passing on. |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:50 - May 28 with 2314 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Other than people perhaps speedily striking Macchu Pichu off their bucket list this bloke's work in trying to undo government spin has been a beacon of truth in a fog of lies for months
Although the basic premise is that the government's inability to face up to the pandemic was largely due to getting Brexit done and ringing church bells on January 31st, and that 'the science' they follow must be written by Dr Mengele, the actual reason for the appalling carnage is the sheer absurdity of the way the NHS has evolved in recent years making it totally unfit for purpose.
Hospitals are now funding themselves.... anything that can be dumped back into the community happens poste haste as they dont have the funds to provide even basic continuing health care. Ditto GP practices fund themselves - so seek to get expensive patients into hospital - or deflect them into homes for budgetary reason. This accelerated the total collapse in care in the community which is now largely private - and therefore outside the remit of the NHS. There is no longer any joined up thinking between hospital care and care in the community despite a rapidly aging population.
It helped to cut costs over many years - but at the expense of a fast-declining service that abandoned the elderly and vulnerable many years ago - and left the entire health service wide open to catastrophe at every level - manpower, supply, capability etc etc. when something unexpected happened, even though it wasn't unexpected - seeing countries with far better health services such as Italy struggling to cope simply shone a spotlight on the disaster about to happen in this country. |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:55 - May 28 with 2307 views | Darth_Koont |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:26 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
it comes down to making a judgement based on expert advice which covers a range of, potentially conflicting, issues. and it's a judgement formed in a situation with high level of risk and uncertainty - and often quite radical uncertainty. even following expert advice there isn't going o be one correct answer - the expert advice by itself is very rarely going to give one definitive answer. the test therefore is, based upon the expert advice available to it, did the the government reach a reasonable judgement, accepting that there may have been other judgements which would also have been reasonable. |
Agreed. But none of that points to this government (or its previous incarnations) as the answer.
They're a calibre of politician that screwed up the relationship with the EU and subsequently brought about a damaging Brexit BECAUSE they couldn't assess the global picture and/or put their narrow interests aside. Other examples of being out of their depth are also available re: structure of the economy, health, poverty, regional inequality, you name it. | |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:02 - May 28 with 2297 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 12:55 - May 28 by Darth_Koont |
Agreed. But none of that points to this government (or its previous incarnations) as the answer.
They're a calibre of politician that screwed up the relationship with the EU and subsequently brought about a damaging Brexit BECAUSE they couldn't assess the global picture and/or put their narrow interests aside. Other examples of being out of their depth are also available re: structure of the economy, health, poverty, regional inequality, you name it. |
that's an entirely different point. you can't assess the government's handling of this crisis on the basis of your or anyone else's take on the rights and wrongs of brexit.
beyond covid-19, the fact that the uk isn't as you would want it may not be down to the incompetence of politicians but due to the fact that your views are in a minority. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:13 - May 28 with 2284 views | Darth_Koont |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:02 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
that's an entirely different point. you can't assess the government's handling of this crisis on the basis of your or anyone else's take on the rights and wrongs of brexit.
beyond covid-19, the fact that the uk isn't as you would want it may not be down to the incompetence of politicians but due to the fact that your views are in a minority. |
No, I'm saying why there is zero evidence (and no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt) that they've handled this pandemic "scientifically" and objectively because they've repeatedly proven this sort of thing is beyond them. Brexit is one example.
Responsibility, integrity, transparency, intelligence and the ability to take tough decisions are not what got them where they are today. In fact, all those qualities would have arguably been hindrances.
But despite them not exhibiting any of that we seem to be telling ourselves we're electing politicians and leaders who are up to the task. I'd rather be in the minority that disagrees with that take. | |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:17 - May 28 with 2275 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:13 - May 28 by Darth_Koont |
No, I'm saying why there is zero evidence (and no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt) that they've handled this pandemic "scientifically" and objectively because they've repeatedly proven this sort of thing is beyond them. Brexit is one example.
Responsibility, integrity, transparency, intelligence and the ability to take tough decisions are not what got them where they are today. In fact, all those qualities would have arguably been hindrances.
But despite them not exhibiting any of that we seem to be telling ourselves we're electing politicians and leaders who are up to the task. I'd rather be in the minority that disagrees with that take. |
so because of your views on brexit you don't trust the government. ok. not a great level of critical analysis, but ok. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:30 - May 28 with 2254 views | BrixtonBlue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:17 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
so because of your views on brexit you don't trust the government. ok. not a great level of critical analysis, but ok. |
It's been interesting to watch Glassers get more and more away from the Tories while you move in closer and closer. Very interesting. | |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:32 - May 28 with 2251 views | linhdi |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:17 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
so because of your views on brexit you don't trust the government. ok. not a great level of critical analysis, but ok. |
Well, it's fair to say the UK going it's own way and ignoring what the rest of Europe were doing... hasn't turned out all that well. We had every opportunity to learn from the growing crisis elsewhere, but utterly failed to do so. At the cost - so far - of at least 40,000 lives. | | | |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:34 - May 28 with 2244 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:30 - May 28 by BrixtonBlue |
It's been interesting to watch Glassers get more and more away from the Tories while you move in closer and closer. Very interesting. |
no, the last 5 years have taught me that tribal affiliation is pretty brainless.
starmer is a good thing - a starmer government would be much better than what we now have.
but at a time of a once in a century national crisis i am not going to attack the uk government just because they're tories, or just because of brexit. [Post edited 28 May 2020 13:38]
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| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:36 - May 28 with 2243 views | TJS |
My gut feeling was that the timing of the lockdown was everything. The worst hit countries (UK, Italy and Spain) recorded their first cases at the end of January.
Italy and Spain locked down earlier than us and had stricter rules.
I also think we probably have a lot more elderly people in residential homes than Spain and Italy where older relatives tend to live more with family (although I may be wrong).
This may account for the difference between UK, Italy and Spain.
It was a full month before the first cases were recorded in a lot of other European countries and places like New Zealand. As a result It was a lot easier for them to make the decision to shut down their economies with effectively 4 weeks of hindsight.
I also think mega-city infrastructure in places like London, New York and Paris may also have been a factor. [Post edited 28 May 2020 13:37]
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:38 - May 28 with 2232 views | itfcjoe |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 11:12 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
when the inquiry into all of this takes place, along with questions about PPE and care homes, the critical question will be whether the government followed the expert advice about the timing of the lockdown. if they didn't then they are greatly at fault.
i don't recall people saying that the first government announcement on 16th march was too weak - it was reported as being a dramatic and life changing move. but all that really matters is what the expert advice was at that time. we don't yet know that. |
THe Sunday Times Insight study released at the weekend concluded that teh Govt agreed a lockdown was required on the 14th, when there were 200k infections in the country, but it took until the 23rd because it went against Johnson's instincts and the party really didn't want to do it. By that point there were 1.5m infections.
No country went into lockdown with as many infections, even in Italy which was caught out by this there were 1.2m infections when they went into lockdown |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:46 - May 28 with 2217 views | Libero |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:30 - May 28 by BrixtonBlue |
It's been interesting to watch Glassers get more and more away from the Tories while you move in closer and closer. Very interesting. |
I think Glassers highlighted something interesting another post in recent weeks where he said that he and I were close together in regards to social matters.
I think some decent people that voted Conservative that are now being faced with the reality of what the rhetoric and values that their vote was for and they feel a real disconnect.
Those who currently appear to be leaning into this mess appear devoid of social responsibility or sincerely lacking basic understanding. | | | |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:47 - May 28 with 2216 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:38 - May 28 by itfcjoe |
THe Sunday Times Insight study released at the weekend concluded that teh Govt agreed a lockdown was required on the 14th, when there were 200k infections in the country, but it took until the 23rd because it went against Johnson's instincts and the party really didn't want to do it. By that point there were 1.5m infections.
No country went into lockdown with as many infections, even in Italy which was caught out by this there were 1.2m infections when they went into lockdown |
as i've posted before the first major restrictions were introduced on 16th march not the 23rd.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/17/life-put-on-hold-what-the-papers-s
i spent the week starting 16th march sending staff home and closing everything down, so it would be odd to suggest that none of the happened until a week later. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:49 - May 28 with 2206 views | Herbivore |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:34 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
no, the last 5 years have taught me that tribal affiliation is pretty brainless.
starmer is a good thing - a starmer government would be much better than what we now have.
but at a time of a once in a century national crisis i am not going to attack the uk government just because they're tories, or just because of brexit. [Post edited 28 May 2020 13:38]
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You could attack them for doing a really poor job though. That would be a start. |  |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:51 - May 28 with 2201 views | Darth_Koont |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:17 - May 28 by lowhouseblue |
so because of your views on brexit you don't trust the government. ok. not a great level of critical analysis, but ok. |
Eh? No, it's my analysis of their views on Brexit vs. reality. A Brexit they've lied, cheated and stolen for their political ends - and are still willfully steering towards the cliff edge even now.
If you think they deserve the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, no matter what they do or say, then you're an even bigger apologist for modern politics than I took you for. | |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:52 - May 28 with 2196 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:49 - May 28 by Herbivore |
You could attack them for doing a really poor job though. That would be a start. |
as the thread discusses, that depends on whether or not they have followed the expert advice. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:54 - May 28 with 2191 views | lowhouseblue |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:51 - May 28 by Darth_Koont |
Eh? No, it's my analysis of their views on Brexit vs. reality. A Brexit they've lied, cheated and stolen for their political ends - and are still willfully steering towards the cliff edge even now.
If you think they deserve the benefit of the doubt repeatedly, no matter what they do or say, then you're an even bigger apologist for modern politics than I took you for. |
this is about covid-19 not brexit. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:58 - May 28 with 2175 views | Darth_Koont |
| There's an FT piece comparing total excess deaths in the UK today on 13:30 - May 28 by BrixtonBlue |
It's been interesting to watch Glassers get more and more away from the Tories while you move in closer and closer. Very interesting. |
They're two cheeks of the same politics as sport @rse. Lowers even found himself dabbling in Brexit Party territory before the election.
So I'm really not sure the party is that important - the policies certainly aren't. It's more about the intricacies of the game. | |
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