By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions. We in turn value your personal details in accordance with our Privacy Policy.
Please log in or register. Registered visitors get fewer ads.
Prompted by a question from VT on Shawsey's NZ thread, who would yours be? Leaders of country, party or movement. Mine -
1. Nelson Mandela 2. Mahatma Gandhi 3. Martin Luther King 4. Winston Churchill 5. Franklin D. Roosevelt 6. Keir Hardie 7. Harold Wilson 8. Mikhall Gorbachev 9. Jacinda Ardern 10. Open for choice of wildcards - Greta Thunberg (OK, not politician, but trying to influence all current & future politicians on biggest threat to humankind); Salvador Allende (heroic failure?); Benazir Bhutto (flawed, but then aren't most?); John Smith, the late Labour Party leader.
Although I said "of all time", my own historical knowedge isn't really up to doing that, so I've stuck to 20th & 21st centuries. If Guthers or anyone else wants to bump mine down the list with Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great or whoever, feel free!
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:36 - Jun 14 by solemio
Harold Wilson? Why?
1966. won the general election in march and then 30th july that year england won the world cup. 1967 68 season ipswich were promoted to the top league in england as champions of the old 2nd division. all under harold wilson
forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows
2
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 15:41 - Jun 14 with 2486 views
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 15:09 - Jun 14 by Guthrum
Interesting question - particularly by what criteria you categorise a leader as "top".
Do you consider someone like Athelstan, who basically forged a stable, unified England, or his grandfather Alfred, who beat the Vikings and did a lot to promote English as a written language?
Guiseppe Garibaldi was one of the most influential figures of his day. International revolutionary, partly responsible for achieving Italian unification. But also flawed and with a string of failures to his name, often resulting in considerable repression and loss of life.
Will have to have a think (not got time just now).
My politics isn't up to much, but I would say that is a pretty good list. I haven't looked at the other posts yet, so there might be a few in there, but for starters, I would go with that.
0
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 17:38 - Jun 14 with 2419 views
Vaclav Havel would be top of my list. He had an extraordinary life & political career. I lived in Prague when I was younger and he was more or less universally loved (in Czechia at least, perhaps less so in Slovakia!).
2
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 18:01 - Jun 14 with 2404 views
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 17:38 - Jun 14 by gordon
Vaclav Havel would be top of my list. He had an extraordinary life & political career. I lived in Prague when I was younger and he was more or less universally loved (in Czechia at least, perhaps less so in Slovakia!).
Oh yes, for sure - I'll give myself a slap on the wrists for forgetting about him - I wouldn't put him in my #1 slot, but in top 10 for sure (so out go all my previous possibilities at #10). Was a wonderful writer as well. I'm going to stretch my rules! & give him a shared spot with another I'd forgotten about - Lech Walesa.
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 15:09 - Jun 14 by Guthrum
Interesting question - particularly by what criteria you categorise a leader as "top".
Do you consider someone like Athelstan, who basically forged a stable, unified England, or his grandfather Alfred, who beat the Vikings and did a lot to promote English as a written language?
Guiseppe Garibaldi was one of the most influential figures of his day. International revolutionary, partly responsible for achieving Italian unification. But also flawed and with a string of failures to his name, often resulting in considerable repression and loss of life.
Will have to have a think (not got time just now).
The real architect of Italian unification (Risorgimento) wasn't Garibaldi. It was Cavour - Count Camillo Benso di Cavour.
Incidentally, oddly the place where Mandela is least highly thought of currently appears to be South Africa.
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 15:09 - Jun 14 by Guthrum
Interesting question - particularly by what criteria you categorise a leader as "top".
Do you consider someone like Athelstan, who basically forged a stable, unified England, or his grandfather Alfred, who beat the Vikings and did a lot to promote English as a written language?
Guiseppe Garibaldi was one of the most influential figures of his day. International revolutionary, partly responsible for achieving Italian unification. But also flawed and with a string of failures to his name, often resulting in considerable repression and loss of life.
Will have to have a think (not got time just now).
Yep, guess I shoulda defined what I meant by "best", but sort of got round to it in my reply to Zombies at 13.21 on p2. In short, subtract their flaws from their widest & deepest positive achievements & legacies, then look at what's left that's good/great & lasting.
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 18:38 - Jun 14 by Ryorry
Just a question of prophets in their own countries etc? or..?
Possibly partly, but there seems to be a general feeling that he was too accommodating to the white South Africans after he became president. There may of course be many other factors that I'm unaware of.
0
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 19:45 - Jun 14 with 2321 views
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:19 - Jun 14 by Wacko
I think Ataturk could go in there, as one of the most successful leaders to bring their country away from colonial powers. And also for his secular reforms. He also seemed to be universally acclaimed (except by people who called him a Mason and a homosexual..) even by his rivals
No doubt he is revered in Turkey where he has achieved almost god-like status, but like most historical leaders there are parts of his legacy that are deeply troubling. He condoned the use of torture for those that rebelled against him, and he is arguably directly responsible for the Dersim massacre that saw the murder and ethnic cleansing of the Alevi and Zaza peoples from Dersim - some argue it was a genocide. Armenians also see him as continuing the policies of the Three Pashas by ethnically cleansing the Armenian population out of Anatolia. That's not to denigrate the good things he did, just that there were also bad things as well.
1
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 19:54 - Jun 14 with 2312 views
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 20:30 - Jun 14 by vapour_trail
I had to edit my response in the NZ thread.
I believed it to be a statement of such ridiculousness as to warrant a challenge. But then I remembered not to engage with the op.
For me. Michael Collins. Not well studied in our schools, as is the case with all those we killed.
[Post edited 14 Jun 2020 20:35]
"Then I remembered not to engage with the OP"
Yet you did, and asked me a question. So I politely replied, and started this thread as a proper response.
Then you came onto this thread that numerous others seem to find very interesting, just to "engage" with me again, in order to have your customary pop.
Just put me on ignore please, something I've asked you to do before (more than once iirc) but you refused. If you actually didn't want to "engage" with me, why won't you do that? It's pretty simple really, you'd then be spared seeing anything I've written & wouldn't get so angry & upset about it.
Not an exhaustive list, but a few I've read about and think they had a significantly positive impact in their respective societies (and haven't been mentioned yet). although in several cases, their work was subsequently undone.
William Porter - wrote the Cape Colony constitution in the 1850s, which gave Africans the right to vote on the same basis as Europeans
Mohammed Zahir Shah - significantly liberalised Afghanistan during his period as king.
Garfield Todd - as Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia, he pushed for improved rights for the African population.
Thomas Sankara introduced some very good reforms in Burkina Faso, but was tainted with the associated violence. Similarly, a few recent presidents in South America introduced much needed social programmes, but blotted their copybooks with corruption and/or attempts to cling onto power (although it's not clear how much of that is manufactured by the opposition).
1
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 21:45 - Jun 14 with 2236 views
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 21:37 - Jun 14 by Clapham_Junction
Not an exhaustive list, but a few I've read about and think they had a significantly positive impact in their respective societies (and haven't been mentioned yet). although in several cases, their work was subsequently undone.
William Porter - wrote the Cape Colony constitution in the 1850s, which gave Africans the right to vote on the same basis as Europeans
Mohammed Zahir Shah - significantly liberalised Afghanistan during his period as king.
Garfield Todd - as Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia, he pushed for improved rights for the African population.
Thomas Sankara introduced some very good reforms in Burkina Faso, but was tainted with the associated violence. Similarly, a few recent presidents in South America introduced much needed social programmes, but blotted their copybooks with corruption and/or attempts to cling onto power (although it's not clear how much of that is manufactured by the opposition).
Interesting, will try to read up a bit on all those - thanks.
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 18:31 - Jun 14 by solemio
The real architect of Italian unification (Risorgimento) wasn't Garibaldi. It was Cavour - Count Camillo Benso di Cavour.
Incidentally, oddly the place where Mandela is least highly thought of currently appears to be South Africa.
Altho Garibaldi's antics (the 1849 Siege of Rome, his invasion of Sicily) did give Cavour a lot of useful leverage - as the sane and establishment alternative.
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 14:40 - Jun 14 by bluelagos
I'd be looking for leaders who fundamentally changed the world in a positive way.
As such, I'd be looking for a suffragette (Pankhurst?) and someone who ended slavery (Lincoln?). Guess Karl Marx would be too controversial given how many communist regimes ended up.
I wouldn't suggest Marx as he was a theorist rather than a practitioner, so you are left with a choice between Lenin, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh etc. as those who were able to take Marxist theory and apply it to the revolutionary situations they managed.
Lenin made the biggest impact in World politics but did not last long, and you wouldn't want to put Stalin up as the political leader who got the best out of the franchise.
Ho Chi Minh played a long game and eventually brought off a David versus Goliath style victory but as far as I can see Vietnam has become quite mercenary and capitalist in recent years (although I have yet to visit so I cannot really make a judgement).
Which leaves Mao and Fidel - Mao had the longest lasting and most extensive revolution but broke an awful lot of eggs making that omelette, however it is an ongoing process that may yet turn out better than expected. I can only really vouch for Cuba when it comes down to it as it is the only state of the four that I have been to. Universal health care, decent life expectancy, plenty of food and apparently self sufficient. And of course great music and dance. Just don't diss Fidel or his successors...
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 08:34 - Jun 15 by WeWereZombies
I wouldn't suggest Marx as he was a theorist rather than a practitioner, so you are left with a choice between Lenin, Mao Zedong, Fidel Castro, Ho Chi Minh etc. as those who were able to take Marxist theory and apply it to the revolutionary situations they managed.
Lenin made the biggest impact in World politics but did not last long, and you wouldn't want to put Stalin up as the political leader who got the best out of the franchise.
Ho Chi Minh played a long game and eventually brought off a David versus Goliath style victory but as far as I can see Vietnam has become quite mercenary and capitalist in recent years (although I have yet to visit so I cannot really make a judgement).
Which leaves Mao and Fidel - Mao had the longest lasting and most extensive revolution but broke an awful lot of eggs making that omelette, however it is an ongoing process that may yet turn out better than expected. I can only really vouch for Cuba when it comes down to it as it is the only state of the four that I have been to. Universal health care, decent life expectancy, plenty of food and apparently self sufficient. And of course great music and dance. Just don't diss Fidel or his successors...
[Post edited 15 Jun 2020 9:40]
You mentioned flaws earlier, esp the Bengali Famine re M. Ghandi - I seem to remember reading in the 1960s of F. Castro committing some pretty dire human rights atrocities ...
For a current leader, the king of Bhutan would probably make mine. He seems to have his priorities right. Worth giving a google if anyone is interested.
0
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:26 - Jun 15 with 2056 views
Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:53 - Jun 15 by Ryorry
You mentioned flaws earlier, esp the Bengali Famine re M. Ghandi - I seem to remember reading in the 1960s of F. Castro committing some pretty dire human rights atrocities ...
Like Churchill and Mao, he got the job done and was not too fussed who got hurt on the way. But just about everyone around them knew that was the way it was and therefore kept their own council. It is people further away from the top table who suffer the most. I accept that Churchill was not in the game of disappearing rivals in the way that Mao, Stalin, various Argentine and Chilean despots were, not even into the extreme discouragement that Castro and Tito indulged in (I heard a tale about the Tito tactic of moving your desk out of your office and into the basement being imitated by Robert Maxwell except that the guy's desk was put in a lift at Mirror Group).
Will Churchill ever be vindicated over the two to three million deaths that resulted in taking food from Bengal and sending it to Burma and Singapore? The Wikipedia page seems to expand every time I look at it and further charges of complicity on Churchill's part are being laid, also the time frame is shifting from the winter of 1941 to 1943. Other troubling incidents are the bombing of Dublin being allowed to go ahead so that the Luftwaffe did not realise their systems were being interfered with by Bletchley Park and the abandonment of the 51st Highland Division in the lead up to the Dunkirk evacuation; but these have justifications from the point of view of military tactics.
What we can take away from the Bengal famine, rather than the propaganda gift that it was for the Mahatma and other proponents of Indian independence, is the doctrine put forward by Amartya Sen (and that had similarities to the distibutivism ideas of G.K. Chesterton and some other Catholic thinkers) that there is never any need for famine when the mechanics of food distribution can be employed to best advantage. One tragic example is the Ethiopian famine of 1985 which was of a fairly standard level for that state and could have been alleviated with few casualties by normal avenues of aid, however the Marxist dictator (who is said to have murdered Haile Selassie - another name to consider for the list) was so resistant to outside help that over a million died as a result.
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
