| Top 10 political leaders of all time? 11:01 - Jun 14 with 9267 views | Ryorry |
Prompted by a question from VT on Shawsey's NZ thread, who would yours be? Leaders of country, party or movement. Mine -
1. Nelson Mandela
2. Mahatma Gandhi
3. Martin Luther King
4. Winston Churchill
5. Franklin D. Roosevelt
6. Keir Hardie
7. Harold Wilson
8. Mikhall Gorbachev
9. Jacinda Ardern
10. Open for choice of wildcards - Greta Thunberg (OK, not politician, but trying to influence all current & future politicians on biggest threat to humankind); Salvador Allende (heroic failure?); Benazir Bhutto (flawed, but then aren't most?); John Smith, the late Labour Party leader.
Although I said "of all time", my own historical knowedge isn't really up to doing that, so I've stuck to 20th & 21st centuries. If Guthers or anyone else wants to bump mine down the list with Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great or whoever, feel free! |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:09 - Jun 14 with 1839 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
So far I have...
1. Confucius
2. Nelson Mandela
3. Clement Attlee
4. Thomas Jefferson |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:11 - Jun 14 with 1822 views | eireblue |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:18 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
Did think about including the original JC, but decided his main descriptor would be 'religious', not 'political'.
'"Baby Yoda"?! |
Crikey, you are correct, he should be capitalised.
I could have been making a meaningful contribution, in that, really what we know of old leaders is the stories that they want to be told, and so what we end up doing is comparing stories.
Or when people think of leaders, it makes me think of religious leaders, which pops the monicker “the Baby Jesus” into my head, and it makes me giggle that we now have a Baby Yoda in the Jedi “bibles”. |  | | |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:14 - Jun 14 with 1816 views | eireblue |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:09 - Jun 14 by Tangledupin_Blue |
So far I have...
1. Confucius
2. Nelson Mandela
3. Clement Attlee
4. Thomas Jefferson |
Would probably add Lao Tzu to that list. | | | |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:14 - Jun 14 with 1815 views | WeWereZombies |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:00 - Jun 14 by eireblue |
Oliver Cromwell!?
He can f**k right off. |
He wasn't pleasant, but maybe you need a complete bastard to get rid of someone who believes they have a divine right.
I must get around to reading Tom Reilly's 'Cromwell - An Honourable Enemy: The Untold Story of the Cromwellian Invasion of Ireland'. |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:21 - Jun 14 with 1787 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:14 - Jun 14 by eireblue |
Would probably add Lao Tzu to that list. |
A reasonable shout though there is considerable doubt over whether he existed as a singular entity.
I like Ryorry's inclusion of FDR and I would consider Jimmy Carter for mention for the work he has done (and is doing) since leaving high office. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:25 - Jun 14 with 1776 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Your definition of politics seems a bit broad and your list of good eggs seems a tad recent.
Not to include Fidel Castro, Lenin or Mao Tse Tung might be mistake given their achievements - and to dip back in time to include erm T E Lawrence for allegedly uniting the arab tribes and factions.... which has been an impossible task ever since....
A certain gent called Ho Chi Minnie Mouse achieved far more than any on that list
George Washington might have done a bit more than Roosevelt.... Lincoln certainly did.
Maybe Oliver Cromwell deserves a mention - he might even have solved the Irish conundrum with a bit more bloodshed.
And some of those aztecs and pharoahs must have been astute leaders seeing how far their nations have fallen from world domination since. |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:26 - Jun 14 with 1770 views | Wacko |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:37 - Jun 14 by WeWereZombies |
It is the tragic lot of empire builders, they bust a gut establishing reforms in medical care and education but all people remember are the rapes and murders... |
The question was about leaders. He led his country well | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:38 - Jun 14 with 1753 views | WeWereZombies |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:26 - Jun 14 by Wacko |
The question was about leaders. He led his country well |
Country? or state? or nation? or people? I suspect Genghis Khan would have had a different concept of nationhood than any of the ones we accept now. Maybe he would have understood the dictum that Machiavelli put forward that a prince should be both loved and feared but if he can achieve only one of those then it is better to be feared. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:46 - Jun 14 with 1739 views | Wacko |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:38 - Jun 14 by WeWereZombies |
Country? or state? or nation? or people? I suspect Genghis Khan would have had a different concept of nationhood than any of the ones we accept now. Maybe he would have understood the dictum that Machiavelli put forward that a prince should be both loved and feared but if he can achieve only one of those then it is better to be feared. |
Well, quite, the entity 'country' is ambiguous because (edit: not 'but', typo) he came from a different time than our own. The age-old problem of not contextualising historical accounts...
Here's an article about this: https://www.japantimes.co.jp/culture/2005/10/23/books/genghis-khan-greatest-lead
Which includes the interesting quote: "A beneficial consequence of his atrocious methods was that people were too frightened to rebel. Thus the Khan engineered a great era of “peace,” a kind of Pax Mongolica." [Post edited 14 Jun 2020 12:47]
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:47 - Jun 14 with 1739 views | Ryorry |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:56 - Jun 14 by Oldsmoker |
No Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min or Mao Tse Tung.
Seems a bit western-centric this list. |
Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, Salvador Allende & Benazir Bhutto are western-centric?
Anyway, dictators & those with shocking records of atrocities re human rights are not welcome on my list. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:50 - Jun 14 with 1725 views | Ryorry |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:25 - Jun 14 by ElephantintheRoom |
Your definition of politics seems a bit broad and your list of good eggs seems a tad recent.
Not to include Fidel Castro, Lenin or Mao Tse Tung might be mistake given their achievements - and to dip back in time to include erm T E Lawrence for allegedly uniting the arab tribes and factions.... which has been an impossible task ever since....
A certain gent called Ho Chi Minnie Mouse achieved far more than any on that list
George Washington might have done a bit more than Roosevelt.... Lincoln certainly did.
Maybe Oliver Cromwell deserves a mention - he might even have solved the Irish conundrum with a bit more bloodshed.
And some of those aztecs and pharoahs must have been astute leaders seeing how far their nations have fallen from world domination since. |
All that & my reasons for sticking to the 20th C onwards were explained in my OP ... | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:51 - Jun 14 with 1728 views | footers |
As no one's stuck him in yet, I'm adding Guevara to my picks.
FDR is a good'un too. And Nye Bevan, though whether he's a 'leader' or not is up for debate I suppose. |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:55 - Jun 14 with 1713 views | StokieBlue |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:56 - Jun 14 by Oldsmoker |
No Pol Pot, Ho Chi Min or Mao Tse Tung.
Seems a bit western-centric this list. |
Pol Pot!?!?
SB |  | | |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:58 - Jun 14 with 1709 views | footers |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:55 - Jun 14 by StokieBlue |
Pol Pot!?!?
SB |
He was certainly effective. But as a spectacles wearer, he wouldn't be making my list. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:58 - Jun 14 with 1707 views | Ryorry |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:51 - Jun 14 by footers |
As no one's stuck him in yet, I'm adding Guevara to my picks.
FDR is a good'un too. And Nye Bevan, though whether he's a 'leader' or not is up for debate I suppose. |
Che Guevara's a good un, esp when you consider the number of T-shirts depicting him & his berets produced in the last 70 years ;) Critics would of course point to people suffering horrendous sweatshop conditions & damage to the environment arising from their production ... 
Did consider including Nye Bevan, but as you say 'leader' description debateable. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:08 - Jun 14 with 1693 views | eastangliaisblue |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:58 - Jun 14 by footers |
He was certainly effective. But as a spectacles wearer, he wouldn't be making my list. |
I couldn't help but laugh at that!
Edit; I have been to the killing fields and Tuol Sleng. Really heartbreaking. The country still suffers through that legacy today. If you take how many were killed compared to population, he is right up there with the best of the worst. [Post edited 14 Jun 2020 13:31]
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:11 - Jun 14 with 1688 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
Surely Sir David Attenborough would be ahead of Greta. I would say that it was his documentaries that really led that recent movement.
Paul Lambert and Marcus Evans are also missing? |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:15 - Jun 14 with 1679 views | WeWereZombies |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 12:47 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
Nelson Mandela, Mahatma Gandhi, Salvador Allende & Benazir Bhutto are western-centric?
Anyway, dictators & those with shocking records of atrocities re human rights are not welcome on my list. |
Shocking records of atrocities you say - have you ever heard of the Bengal famine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
As I said in my reply to Stokie's original post, the title of best at politics needs a qualifier - which I guess you have provided but which may also knock one or two names out of your list. And I am going to resist looking at how the number of Maoris as a percentage of the prison population in New Zealand compares with the number of black prisoners as a percentage of the total in the United States... | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:15 - Jun 14 with 1679 views | Ryorry |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:11 - Jun 14 by Marshalls_Mullet |
Surely Sir David Attenborough would be ahead of Greta. I would say that it was his documentaries that really led that recent movement.
Paul Lambert and Marcus Evans are also missing? |
Again, did consider including Attenborough, but even less than Greta could he be described as a "political leader". | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:17 - Jun 14 with 1669 views | Ryorry |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:15 - Jun 14 by WeWereZombies |
Shocking records of atrocities you say - have you ever heard of the Bengal famine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
As I said in my reply to Stokie's original post, the title of best at politics needs a qualifier - which I guess you have provided but which may also knock one or two names out of your list. And I am going to resist looking at how the number of Maoris as a percentage of the prison population in New Zealand compares with the number of black prisoners as a percentage of the total in the United States... |
edit: browser jumped & posted before I'd finished writing. [Post edited 14 Jun 2020 13:23]
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:21 - Jun 14 with 1656 views | Ryorry |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:15 - Jun 14 by WeWereZombies |
Shocking records of atrocities you say - have you ever heard of the Bengal famine?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bengal_famine_of_1943
As I said in my reply to Stokie's original post, the title of best at politics needs a qualifier - which I guess you have provided but which may also knock one or two names out of your list. And I am going to resist looking at how the number of Maoris as a percentage of the prison population in New Zealand compares with the number of black prisoners as a percentage of the total in the United States... |
I hadn't actually, so thanks for the link which I'll read later. But for me it's basically a question of whether their flaws are outweighed by the ongoing positive benefits & good legacy they engendered. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:23 - Jun 14 with 1654 views | Marshalls_Mullet |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:15 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
Again, did consider including Attenborough, but even less than Greta could he be described as a "political leader". |
Agreed. Both are figure heads for a movement really. | |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 13:31 - Jun 14 with 1647 views | factual_blue |
| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 11:37 - Jun 14 by WeWereZombies |
It is the tragic lot of empire builders, they bust a gut establishing reforms in medical care and education but all people remember are the rapes and murders... |
It's the old joke isn't it?
'I start up the village choir. Nobody calls me Jones the Song.
I start a campaign and successfully re-open the village pub. Nobody calls me Jones the Beer.
I help old ladies across the road. Nobody calls me Jones the Helpful.
I shag one sheep.... |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 14:40 - Jun 14 with 1604 views | bluelagos |
I'd be looking for leaders who fundamentally changed the world in a positive way.
As such, I'd be looking for a suffragette (Pankhurst?) and someone who ended slavery (Lincoln?). Guess Karl Marx would be too controversial given how many communist regimes ended up. |  |
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| Top 10 political leaders of all time? on 15:09 - Jun 14 with 1596 views | Guthrum |
Interesting question - particularly by what criteria you categorise a leader as "top".
Do you consider someone like Athelstan, who basically forged a stable, unified England, or his grandfather Alfred, who beat the Vikings and did a lot to promote English as a written language?
Guiseppe Garibaldi was one of the most influential figures of his day. International revolutionary, partly responsible for achieving Italian unification. But also flawed and with a string of failures to his name, often resulting in considerable repression and loss of life.
Will have to have a think (not got time just now). |  |
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