| Any uni students feeling hard done by? 09:24 - Sep 8 with 12493 views | giant_stow |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-54025181
My niece is wondering why she gets to pay 9 grand for online only too. Apparently her Uni has sent her an email pleading poverty as an explanation of why there'll be no fees reduction, but that doesn't wash when each year puts you 9 grand further into debt, aged 19. |  |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 10:56 - Sep 8 with 5283 views | gordon |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 10:36 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
I agree with that aspect of it. There should be honesty about how much on campus activity there will be so students can choose whether to physically come to the university or not. I know at the uni I am currently at that the library and catering facilities are open, the bar will be too at reduced capacity. It will be a very different experience to normal though. |
Yes, universities aren't communicating (at least mine isn't) openly to students what they are planning to do in the case of the inevitable COVID outbreaks in residential accommodation - if they did, I think an awful lot of students would think twice about coming, and that's why they can't tell them. It's going to be a right mess. |  | | |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:02 - Sep 8 with 5277 views | ITFC_Forever |
I did hear that some unis (I'm sure Durham was one of them) have offered new first years to waive their fees for the first year if they agree to defer for a year.
Great offer if you're one of those students, but an element of delaying the issue for another time.... |  |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:02 - Sep 8 with 5272 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 10:46 - Sep 8 by lowhouseblue |
university costs haven't fallen at all with the move to online lectures. some universities are still doing all other forms of teaching in person - it's just the big groups that can't be covid secure. labs and dissecting rooms are the real challenge - but they're being made to work. i'm not convinced that in terms of course content or teaching intensity a lot of universities will be delivering less than in a normal year. it's the social side of university which is shot.
in terms of fees, the problem is having a funding system that works for elite higher education applied to a system in which 50% go to university. the expansion of the university system to lots of people who'd get a bigger benefit from studying different things in different ways and not spending £9k a year simply hasn't worked. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 10:47]
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Hard to disagree with any of that. You do have to question whether it is worthwhile for someone to do a £9k a year media studies degree at the 126th best university in the UK when they could instead look at doing an internship or apprenticeship in film or TV and end up much more employable in the long-term as a result.
I don't have an issue at all with people studying because they want to study rather than purely for employability reasons but there does need to be some consideration of whether uni is the best route for everyone in terms of their personal development.
There are also some fairly big issues with charging students £9k a year in terms of them then becoming big spending consumers and what this then does for their expectations. I've noticed myself that students expect an awful lot more to be done for them since fees went up, whereas university education should be about promoting independence and making students responsible for their own learning. This has been negatively impacted for sure. And universities are now slaves to the National Student Survey. |  |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:20 - Sep 8 with 5251 views | giant_stow |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 10:33 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
Students as it goes, since without fees unis will go bust whereas students don't even start repaying their fees immediately and won't do so until they're earning over a certain amount. By all means take issue with the way that unis are funded, take issue with fees being ridiculously high, but they are what they are and that's kit down to universities. If you think that universities - other than the likes of Oxbridge - can reimburse students a chunk of their fees for this year then you're very much mistaken. They don't have the money to do so.
I'm not sure what you think students are not getting exactly? In many cases they are getting more input from lecturers through increased formative feedback and lecturers being more available for asynchronous class discussions. If it's the social experience of being on campus amongst their peers, that's just the way things are right now. Students have the option to defer or intercalate for a year if that is what's most important to them. The role of universities is to provide a learning experience for the students and they are continuing to do that.
Everyone is having to adjust to doing things differently in the short to medium term, we can't all expect to be compensated for things being done virtually rather than face to face for the time being. |
Forgive me, but most unis are established multi-million (or billion) pound institutions, backed by many income streams and owning property/investments - most students are not!
student loans being sometimes unpayable, is a red herring - look at the chap in this thread who sees his repayments as a 9% student tax. Do mortgaging banks ignore student debt when assessing loans? No idea, but I doubt it.
We'll have to agree to differ on wther the experience / product is markedly poorer. I can only go on what my neice is saying there.
I can't get away from the thought that in the curent situation, for Unis its all take, for students, its all give. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:20 - Sep 8 with 5247 views | lowhouseblue |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:02 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
Hard to disagree with any of that. You do have to question whether it is worthwhile for someone to do a £9k a year media studies degree at the 126th best university in the UK when they could instead look at doing an internship or apprenticeship in film or TV and end up much more employable in the long-term as a result.
I don't have an issue at all with people studying because they want to study rather than purely for employability reasons but there does need to be some consideration of whether uni is the best route for everyone in terms of their personal development.
There are also some fairly big issues with charging students £9k a year in terms of them then becoming big spending consumers and what this then does for their expectations. I've noticed myself that students expect an awful lot more to be done for them since fees went up, whereas university education should be about promoting independence and making students responsible for their own learning. This has been negatively impacted for sure. And universities are now slaves to the National Student Survey. |
i think the change in expectations and reduced independence is about much more than fees. the school system and structure of exams, helicopter parenting, reduced independence at home? we now have 18 year olds who've never been on public transport by themselves - unthinkable a decade ago. we had an open day for grad courses recently and 50% of them turned up accompanied by at least one parent. 21+ year olds accompanied by a parent! |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:30 - Sep 8 with 5233 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:20 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
Forgive me, but most unis are established multi-million (or billion) pound institutions, backed by many income streams and owning property/investments - most students are not!
student loans being sometimes unpayable, is a red herring - look at the chap in this thread who sees his repayments as a 9% student tax. Do mortgaging banks ignore student debt when assessing loans? No idea, but I doubt it.
We'll have to agree to differ on wther the experience / product is markedly poorer. I can only go on what my neice is saying there.
I can't get away from the thought that in the curent situation, for Unis its all take, for students, its all give. |
I disagree with your take. Universities are doing a lot as it goes but you seem happy to just dismiss that. I appreciate it's not an ideal situation for students either but you seem to think universities are sat there counting their money like Scrooge McDuck whilst sticking a few PowerPoint slides online. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You also don't seem to understand universities' finances. Very few universities are super rich and can afford to simply reduce fees for a year. The vast majority can't. Somewhere like UEA, for example, is £30m in the hole because of Covid. They have had to stop all planned building and maintenance work and are going through a programme of voluntary redundancies that may well be followed by involuntary ones. That is with them still charging full tuition fees for the upcoming year. So they really can't afford to give millions of pounds back. And this is a big, well regarded university.
The current situation sucks for everyone. Nobody wants things to be the way that they are but university staff are doing everything they can to ensure that the educational offer to students this year remains strong. That is their main responsibility and if they are providing the same teaching content then I don't see why they should be expected to reimburse students. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:32 - Sep 8 with 5228 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:20 - Sep 8 by lowhouseblue |
i think the change in expectations and reduced independence is about much more than fees. the school system and structure of exams, helicopter parenting, reduced independence at home? we now have 18 year olds who've never been on public transport by themselves - unthinkable a decade ago. we had an open day for grad courses recently and 50% of them turned up accompanied by at least one parent. 21+ year olds accompanied by a parent! |
That definitely all feeds into it too. There's definitely a sense that 18 year olds coming to uni now seem a lot less well prepared academically and socially for the experience. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:32 - Sep 8 with 5229 views | giant_stow |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:20 - Sep 8 by lowhouseblue |
i think the change in expectations and reduced independence is about much more than fees. the school system and structure of exams, helicopter parenting, reduced independence at home? we now have 18 year olds who've never been on public transport by themselves - unthinkable a decade ago. we had an open day for grad courses recently and 50% of them turned up accompanied by at least one parent. 21+ year olds accompanied by a parent! |
Werdly* despite being a web bod, some years back I was employed in a qualatative research project for a uni lecturer who was forced to do his phd by his Uni. The topic of study was how the students found the new fees and how it affected their experience of Uni. Without fail, all participants not only felt like consumers, but often, consumers who were short changed why unreturned emails, poor admin or what they felt to be shoddy marking of asignments.
You may be right about reduced independance and helicopter parenting, but the moment you start charging someone for a service, they expect certain standards from that service.
*weird becasue I think this breaks the rules doesn't it? The guy always told me to be hush hush about it anyway! | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:36 - Sep 8 with 5218 views | lowhouseblue |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:30 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
I disagree with your take. Universities are doing a lot as it goes but you seem happy to just dismiss that. I appreciate it's not an ideal situation for students either but you seem to think universities are sat there counting their money like Scrooge McDuck whilst sticking a few PowerPoint slides online. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You also don't seem to understand universities' finances. Very few universities are super rich and can afford to simply reduce fees for a year. The vast majority can't. Somewhere like UEA, for example, is £30m in the hole because of Covid. They have had to stop all planned building and maintenance work and are going through a programme of voluntary redundancies that may well be followed by involuntary ones. That is with them still charging full tuition fees for the upcoming year. So they really can't afford to give millions of pounds back. And this is a big, well regarded university.
The current situation sucks for everyone. Nobody wants things to be the way that they are but university staff are doing everything they can to ensure that the educational offer to students this year remains strong. That is their main responsibility and if they are providing the same teaching content then I don't see why they should be expected to reimburse students. |
and as the news highlighted this morning there's also now a collective £18 billion debt to pay off | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:41 - Sep 8 with 5212 views | giant_stow |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:30 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
I disagree with your take. Universities are doing a lot as it goes but you seem happy to just dismiss that. I appreciate it's not an ideal situation for students either but you seem to think universities are sat there counting their money like Scrooge McDuck whilst sticking a few PowerPoint slides online. Nothing could be further from the truth.
You also don't seem to understand universities' finances. Very few universities are super rich and can afford to simply reduce fees for a year. The vast majority can't. Somewhere like UEA, for example, is £30m in the hole because of Covid. They have had to stop all planned building and maintenance work and are going through a programme of voluntary redundancies that may well be followed by involuntary ones. That is with them still charging full tuition fees for the upcoming year. So they really can't afford to give millions of pounds back. And this is a big, well regarded university.
The current situation sucks for everyone. Nobody wants things to be the way that they are but university staff are doing everything they can to ensure that the educational offer to students this year remains strong. That is their main responsibility and if they are providing the same teaching content then I don't see why they should be expected to reimburse students. |
Of course Unis aren't counting their lala like scrouge, but they're infinitely more able to suck up hardship than most students. Businesses everywhere have lost money on this, or had to stop maintenance programs / spending deemed non-essential. Most of them don't get to assume that they can treat consumers as they wish, because they don't have a captive market.
We clearly do fundamentally disagree, but for me, Unis are a bit too ready to fall back on a 'its not me guv, its that nasty government' approach, when by rights they might be more accommodating. I do wonder whether there might have to be some kind of legal challenge to how Unis have handled corona in future. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:45 - Sep 8 with 5206 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:41 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
Of course Unis aren't counting their lala like scrouge, but they're infinitely more able to suck up hardship than most students. Businesses everywhere have lost money on this, or had to stop maintenance programs / spending deemed non-essential. Most of them don't get to assume that they can treat consumers as they wish, because they don't have a captive market.
We clearly do fundamentally disagree, but for me, Unis are a bit too ready to fall back on a 'its not me guv, its that nasty government' approach, when by rights they might be more accommodating. I do wonder whether there might have to be some kind of legal challenge to how Unis have handled corona in future. |
They aren't able to though, as I've explained. You don't seem to grasp the perilous position that many universities are in financially. The hardship students are being asked to "suck up" is to have a term where most or all of their teaching is being delivered online rather than face to face. I'm sure they can manage that, certainty they can manage that more easily than universities can manage a further multi-million pound shortfall in their finances. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:49 - Sep 8 with 5201 views | dickie |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:20 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
Forgive me, but most unis are established multi-million (or billion) pound institutions, backed by many income streams and owning property/investments - most students are not!
student loans being sometimes unpayable, is a red herring - look at the chap in this thread who sees his repayments as a 9% student tax. Do mortgaging banks ignore student debt when assessing loans? No idea, but I doubt it.
We'll have to agree to differ on wther the experience / product is markedly poorer. I can only go on what my neice is saying there.
I can't get away from the thought that in the curent situation, for Unis its all take, for students, its all give. |
If I recall, student debt doesn't affect your mortgage application but any repayments are taken into account of your monthly outgoings |  | | |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:50 - Sep 8 with 5201 views | giant_stow |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:45 - Sep 8 by Herbivore |
They aren't able to though, as I've explained. You don't seem to grasp the perilous position that many universities are in financially. The hardship students are being asked to "suck up" is to have a term where most or all of their teaching is being delivered online rather than face to face. I'm sure they can manage that, certainty they can manage that more easily than universities can manage a further multi-million pound shortfall in their finances. |
I think I'm understanding that Unis are in the sh1t - I'm just disagreeing that the solution lays with students paying for something they're not fully getting (accept you don't agree with that latter bit). If the system is at fault, why does the little guy pay? Shouldn't unis be fighting the little guy's corner against the govt?!
And it's not just this term - it was most / all of last terms and this thing won't be over by Christmas. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 11:51]
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:54 - Sep 8 with 5198 views | giant_stow |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:49 - Sep 8 by dickie |
If I recall, student debt doesn't affect your mortgage application but any repayments are taken into account of your monthly outgoings |
fair enough, ta for the info. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:04 - Sep 8 with 5179 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:50 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
I think I'm understanding that Unis are in the sh1t - I'm just disagreeing that the solution lays with students paying for something they're not fully getting (accept you don't agree with that latter bit). If the system is at fault, why does the little guy pay? Shouldn't unis be fighting the little guy's corner against the govt?!
And it's not just this term - it was most / all of last terms and this thing won't be over by Christmas. [Post edited 8 Sep 2020 11:51]
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They are in the sh!t but you think they should magic up millions of pounds to give back to the students whilst their staff continue to work harder than ever to provide students with an education this term? Students are still getting a full education from the university. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:05 - Sep 8 with 5175 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:49 - Sep 8 by dickie |
If I recall, student debt doesn't affect your mortgage application but any repayments are taken into account of your monthly outgoings |
Mortgage providers generally look at net earnings and student loans come out via PAYE. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:09 - Sep 8 with 5170 views | Pinewoodblue |
Far too many of the newer universities are overstretched financially, Covid could be the straw that breaks them. |  |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:17 - Sep 8 with 5164 views | giant_stow |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:09 - Sep 8 by Pinewoodblue |
Far too many of the newer universities are overstretched financially, Covid could be the straw that breaks them. |
Yes, I do 4 websites for one of them, so count me as a turkey arguing for Christmas, but fairs fair - this isn't right and once again, the young pay the price. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:22 - Sep 8 with 5158 views | Herbivore |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 12:17 - Sep 8 by giant_stow |
Yes, I do 4 websites for one of them, so count me as a turkey arguing for Christmas, but fairs fair - this isn't right and once again, the young pay the price. |
Aim your ire at the government, they've been totally unwilling to do much to support the higher education sector throughout all of this and without support I don't see how you can expect universities to magic up money to reimburse students when their costs remain the same and they are continuing to run the same courses and modules for students. | |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 18:33 - Sep 15 with 5005 views | gordon |
BTW at my university there's a meeting of the bigwigs tomorrow to start putting contingency plans in place around the return of students to the university, given that the testing system is knackered and the virus is likely to become more prevalent over the next 2/3 weeks. Would imagine similar planning going on at other universities as well. [Post edited 15 Sep 2020 18:33]
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 19:17 - Sep 15 with 4978 views | The_Romford_Blue |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 18:33 - Sep 15 by gordon |
BTW at my university there's a meeting of the bigwigs tomorrow to start putting contingency plans in place around the return of students to the university, given that the testing system is knackered and the virus is likely to become more prevalent over the next 2/3 weeks. Would imagine similar planning going on at other universities as well. [Post edited 15 Sep 2020 18:33]
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Was told we’d receive timetables for hybrid learning (mostly online with the occasional face to face teaching) on September 1st. It’s now the 15th and still nothing. |  |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 10:54 - Sep 16 with 4913 views | brazil1982 |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 18:33 - Sep 15 by gordon |
BTW at my university there's a meeting of the bigwigs tomorrow to start putting contingency plans in place around the return of students to the university, given that the testing system is knackered and the virus is likely to become more prevalent over the next 2/3 weeks. Would imagine similar planning going on at other universities as well. [Post edited 15 Sep 2020 18:33]
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The Uni I work at is planning for so many variations of situation and I'm involved on a departmental level. We are expecting campus to close for students around November because of an expected, huge spike in positive cases. |  | | |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:12 - Sep 16 with 4909 views | tractordownsouth |
I'm in a very small minority of students (and left wingers) who doesn't think tuition fees is a bad policy. Sure, the amount of teaching we receive doesn't equate to 9k's worth, but we don't have to repay it until we're earning a reasonable wage, and the average wage of a graduate is higher than a non-graduate, although of course a uni degree doesn't gurantee financial success.
It always frustrated me that Labour committed so much money in the manifesto to ending fees (which is largely a middle class giveaway) when that money could be used to reverse cuts to universal credit instead. I'd argue the maintenance loans system is what needs reforming, not fees.
As for those asking for a refund, I'm not in favour. Without meaning to sound holier than thou, there are many more people that will need the money, with the wave of unemployment around the corner. Of course people from disadvantaged backgrounds should be entitled to a refund, but I don't personally need it myself so I won't be asking for it. |  |
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| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:16 - Sep 16 with 4907 views | dickie |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:12 - Sep 16 by tractordownsouth |
I'm in a very small minority of students (and left wingers) who doesn't think tuition fees is a bad policy. Sure, the amount of teaching we receive doesn't equate to 9k's worth, but we don't have to repay it until we're earning a reasonable wage, and the average wage of a graduate is higher than a non-graduate, although of course a uni degree doesn't gurantee financial success.
It always frustrated me that Labour committed so much money in the manifesto to ending fees (which is largely a middle class giveaway) when that money could be used to reverse cuts to universal credit instead. I'd argue the maintenance loans system is what needs reforming, not fees.
As for those asking for a refund, I'm not in favour. Without meaning to sound holier than thou, there are many more people that will need the money, with the wave of unemployment around the corner. Of course people from disadvantaged backgrounds should be entitled to a refund, but I don't personally need it myself so I won't be asking for it. |
If most people don't end up paying it off before 30 years is up (which is apparently likely to be the case) who pays for it? | | | |
| Any uni students feeling hard done by? on 11:22 - Sep 16 with 4906 views | jaseitfc2015 |
I believe all school age kids & current uni students should get some sort of waiver to their higher education, the damage done by covid to their progression is career changing. | | | |
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