| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:12 - Sep 16 with 2116 views | Herbivore |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:06 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
Move along Marx. In your warped sense of the world you will not allow private ownership so not sure why you are here. Your marxist utopia will dictate what and how we move around.
I'm hugely keen to see how technology will develop transport.
Keeping older cars on the road is a big factor in reducing one's carbon footprint. If you run an old car for a nominal mileage each year your impact is much lower than buying a new car and running it the same. |
You don't seem hugely keen, you were sneering at people driving hybrids whilst smugly gloating about running a cat that is very thirsty for fossil fuels. |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:13 - Sep 16 with 2118 views | Bluefish |
I deal with this sort of thing for a living, this story really isn't going to be helpful |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:17 - Sep 16 with 2111 views | hampstead_blue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:12 - Sep 16 by Herbivore |
You don't seem hugely keen, you were sneering at people driving hybrids whilst smugly gloating about running a cat that is very thirsty for fossil fuels. |
Utter claptrap. |  |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:17 - Sep 16 with 2114 views | homer_123 |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:13 - Sep 16 by Bluefish |
I deal with this sort of thing for a living, this story really isn't going to be helpful |
My main point is that the consumer was 'done over' by the clear issue of diesel emissions from the likes of VW et al misleading them over emissions.
Do we now have the same issue here? [Post edited 16 Sep 2020 15:19]
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:38 - Sep 16 with 2098 views | Bluefish |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:17 - Sep 16 by homer_123 |
My main point is that the consumer was 'done over' by the clear issue of diesel emissions from the likes of VW et al misleading them over emissions.
Do we now have the same issue here? [Post edited 16 Sep 2020 15:19]
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No it isn't that in this scenario. The new testing procedure is more rigorous but PHEVs are impossible to pit a number in because of the drivers behaviours | |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:52 - Sep 16 with 2087 views | StokieBlue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 13:52 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
I get tap for driving a Prodrive Impreza.
"It's a gas guzzler"......rollocks. It was built in 2005, weighs nothing, has done 127000 miles and will still be churning out 0-60 in not much long after some ugly Hybrid has been built and recycled.
We are also looking to buy a V12 engine car. Same principle.
Keep cars on the road rather than keep us buying more new ones. |
So that car would cost you 15 quid a day from 2021 to drive where I live due to the low emissions zone.
Should people be buying them here or do you concede it's not quite as black and white as you are making out and due to legislation there is a need for bother newer and lower emissions vehicles?
There is a world outside Hampstead Towers.
SB |  | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 16:37 - Sep 16 with 2066 views | BloomBlue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 14:48 - Sep 16 by ipswich78 |
Didn't take that as argumentative at all and it's a very fair question. I am not going to remotely pretend I am smart enough to understand the environmental impact across the whole lifecyle of ANY vehicle.
Unfortunately like many people I have to rely on what I can research and from that research understand!
My stance on driving any vehicle is that I can really influence the impact on the planet by my use of the vehicle. I drive a PHEV, circa 65% of my driving of said vehicle is done on electric. The electric I use is renewable (either my own Solar or at my work where we use a renewable supplier).
It's so hard to try and do the right thing OR even think you are doing the right thing. But, even with my limited knowledge I would safely bet a LOT of money it's better overall for the environment that a diesel / petrol car. |
Just a general question on your point 'The electric I use is renewable (either my own Solar or at my work where we use a renewable supplier)' how do you ensure the electric coming to your work is from a renewable supplier?
I had this discussion with a neighbour recently who was saying his supplier is based on renewables only. My question to his is we have a grid system in this country and his/my house would be supplied via the same grid just at the point of where it splits is different, so how can he be sure the electric coming to his house is from renewable.
It was purely because I was interested in it technically and all he could say was well I'm told it comes from renewable, hence I was interested in how your company, is via a special system like phone providers use different infrastructure? |  | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 16:58 - Sep 16 with 2056 views | hampstead_blue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 15:52 - Sep 16 by StokieBlue |
So that car would cost you 15 quid a day from 2021 to drive where I live due to the low emissions zone.
Should people be buying them here or do you concede it's not quite as black and white as you are making out and due to legislation there is a need for bother newer and lower emissions vehicles?
There is a world outside Hampstead Towers.
SB |
ULEZ is such a small part of the UK it's almost irrelevant.
If we still lived in town we'd have a Tesla 3.
In fact, I sold my Golf R32 and M3 when I moved to London and got a smaller engine car for efficiency and lower emissions. That was in 2004. | |
| Assumption is to make an ass out of you and me.
Those who assume they know you, when they don't are just guessing.
Those who assume and insist they know are daft and in denial.
Those who assume, insist, and deny the truth are plain stupid.
Those who assume, insist, deny the truth and tell YOU they know you (when they don't) have an IQ in the range of 35-49.
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 17:07 - Sep 16 with 2044 views | giant_stow |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 16:58 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
ULEZ is such a small part of the UK it's almost irrelevant.
If we still lived in town we'd have a Tesla 3.
In fact, I sold my Golf R32 and M3 when I moved to London and got a smaller engine car for efficiency and lower emissions. That was in 2004. |
irrelevent?! As in 8 or 9m people living there? More than scotland and many other countries. |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 17:07 - Sep 16 with 2044 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 14:10 - Sep 16 by StokieBlue |
How would you make enough hydrogen to power the worlds consumption?
I agree it's something that could definitely work but it would need a dedicated scaling up of renewables just to create the hydrogen (essentially shifting power from one store to another: wind -> hydrogen).
SB |
Unless there is some massive improvement in solar panel efficiency (and I'm talking of doubling or trebling, not inching up a % or two), it's simply not going to happen because of the scale of electricity generation that would be needed to create the hydrogen.
It's also a completely stupid route to go down due to the inefficiencies in electrolysis and then burning hydrogen as a fuel. If anyone is willing to massively ramp up electricity generation to create hydrogen, why not just use the electricity in the first place? A heat pump produces 3-4kW of heat for every kW of electricity. In a hydrogen system, a kW of electricity would produce 800W of hydrogen, which in turn produces 760W of heat (assuming a 95% efficient boiler).
Hydrogen seems to be largely being argued for as a solution by people who want to do something (or are being forced to by market trends) but can't bring themselves to admit we need to stop burning stuff and make some massive changes in how we heat buildings and transport people around. It will have it's uses in a few places, but I can't see it being the large-scale solution some people are making it out to be. |  | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 17:10 - Sep 16 with 2039 views | StokieBlue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 16:58 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
ULEZ is such a small part of the UK it's almost irrelevant.
If we still lived in town we'd have a Tesla 3.
In fact, I sold my Golf R32 and M3 when I moved to London and got a smaller engine car for efficiency and lower emissions. That was in 2004. |
It's just over 3 million people from October 2021. Good to know that 5% of the UK population is irrelevant though.
Where would you charge this Tesla? They also aren't especially cheap for the masses and why would you want one given you've just said it's better to have an older car with more on the clock? Your arguments are not internally consistent.
At least you've confirmed that things that don't directly affect you aren't important.
SB | | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:36 - Sep 17 with 1972 views | ipswich78 |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 16:37 - Sep 16 by BloomBlue |
Just a general question on your point 'The electric I use is renewable (either my own Solar or at my work where we use a renewable supplier)' how do you ensure the electric coming to your work is from a renewable supplier?
I had this discussion with a neighbour recently who was saying his supplier is based on renewables only. My question to his is we have a grid system in this country and his/my house would be supplied via the same grid just at the point of where it splits is different, so how can he be sure the electric coming to his house is from renewable.
It was purely because I was interested in it technically and all he could say was well I'm told it comes from renewable, hence I was interested in how your company, is via a special system like phone providers use different infrastructure? |
That's a very fair question and the exact conversation we have had internally at work. Rather than trying to paraphrase take a look at this article which explains it well:
https://www.drax.com/sustainability/how-getting-renewable-energy-from-your-suppl |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:41 - Sep 17 with 1968 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 14:48 - Sep 16 by ipswich78 |
Didn't take that as argumentative at all and it's a very fair question. I am not going to remotely pretend I am smart enough to understand the environmental impact across the whole lifecyle of ANY vehicle.
Unfortunately like many people I have to rely on what I can research and from that research understand!
My stance on driving any vehicle is that I can really influence the impact on the planet by my use of the vehicle. I drive a PHEV, circa 65% of my driving of said vehicle is done on electric. The electric I use is renewable (either my own Solar or at my work where we use a renewable supplier).
It's so hard to try and do the right thing OR even think you are doing the right thing. But, even with my limited knowledge I would safely bet a LOT of money it's better overall for the environment that a diesel / petrol car. |
Having solar at home is one of the main reasons I'm thinking about electric next time we swap out our small car - all it does is run kids around town to their activities every evening. So it could sit on charge all day off our solar and we'd still get the generation and feed in tariffs too. Wouldn't need a big battery even. I know we we'd lose money on depreciation, but we'd effectively be getting paid to power it up when the daytime load of the panels is negligible. |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:48 - Sep 17 with 1960 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 13:41 - Sep 16 by ipswich78 |
I drive a PHEV... and yes I do get a warm fuzzy feeling as it still emits considerably less CO2 than an average ICE car.
I really find it bizarre why some people are so against what is deemed as progress and will use any opportunity to try and beat it down? It baffles me.
For those that just read the headline, this section is included and is kinda key:
According to this data-set the lifetime emissions of a plug-in hybrid average around 28 tonnes of CO2.
By comparison, the average petrol or diesel car is estimated to emit between 39 and 41 tonnes of CO2 from fuel during its lifetime, a conventional hybrid would typically emit more like 33 tonnes. |
I find it bizarre that you cannot comprehend the environmental cost of building such inefficient cars - compared to the zero cost of buying one that already exists.
Take a close look at where those unfit for purpose batteries come from too |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:55 - Sep 17 with 1949 views | StokieBlue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 17:07 - Sep 16 by Clapham_Junction |
Unless there is some massive improvement in solar panel efficiency (and I'm talking of doubling or trebling, not inching up a % or two), it's simply not going to happen because of the scale of electricity generation that would be needed to create the hydrogen.
It's also a completely stupid route to go down due to the inefficiencies in electrolysis and then burning hydrogen as a fuel. If anyone is willing to massively ramp up electricity generation to create hydrogen, why not just use the electricity in the first place? A heat pump produces 3-4kW of heat for every kW of electricity. In a hydrogen system, a kW of electricity would produce 800W of hydrogen, which in turn produces 760W of heat (assuming a 95% efficient boiler).
Hydrogen seems to be largely being argued for as a solution by people who want to do something (or are being forced to by market trends) but can't bring themselves to admit we need to stop burning stuff and make some massive changes in how we heat buildings and transport people around. It will have it's uses in a few places, but I can't see it being the large-scale solution some people are making it out to be. |
That's all fair and I agree that the efficiency of producing hydrogen doesn't make it an ideal power source (that was essentially my original point). I think burning it is a little is misleading though as most systems use hydrogen in a fuel cell and the by-product is water.
It does have a few benefits though which has meant the Japanese have gone quite big on the investment:
- Long-term power storage
- Easy to fill up a car (minutes rather than hours)
- Can retrofit existing architecture (petrol stations) with little effort
I do think you are right that there needs to be a bigger rethink around transport infrastructure both with regards to whether people really need lots of cars and how charging infrastructure can be increased.
There was an excellent looking scheme around the corner from me where chargers had been fitted to every lampost which is easy given the power is already connected there. I've seen people using them frequently but I've only ever seen it on that one street.
SB | | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:57 - Sep 17 with 1946 views | ElephantintheRoom |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 13:52 - Sep 16 by hampstead_blue |
I get tap for driving a Prodrive Impreza.
"It's a gas guzzler"......rollocks. It was built in 2005, weighs nothing, has done 127000 miles and will still be churning out 0-60 in not much long after some ugly Hybrid has been built and recycled.
We are also looking to buy a V12 engine car. Same principle.
Keep cars on the road rather than keep us buying more new ones. |
Yes indeed. In the real world most people are buying second hand cars with petrol or diesel engines.
And no mention that these absurd hybrid cars are largely driven to schools and parked on the pavement to unload cherubs and gas with like-minded mumsies - and then on to waitrose to pick up some blueberrie from peru, flowers from kenya.sweetcorn from senegal etc....
Hobby cars for the self-indulgent - who have usually been too dim to recognise or dont care about resale values | |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 10:02 - Sep 17 with 1933 views | Herbivore |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:57 - Sep 17 by ElephantintheRoom |
Yes indeed. In the real world most people are buying second hand cars with petrol or diesel engines.
And no mention that these absurd hybrid cars are largely driven to schools and parked on the pavement to unload cherubs and gas with like-minded mumsies - and then on to waitrose to pick up some blueberrie from peru, flowers from kenya.sweetcorn from senegal etc....
Hobby cars for the self-indulgent - who have usually been too dim to recognise or dont care about resale values |
Careful you don't cut yourself on that edge. | |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 10:05 - Sep 17 with 1933 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:55 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
That's all fair and I agree that the efficiency of producing hydrogen doesn't make it an ideal power source (that was essentially my original point). I think burning it is a little is misleading though as most systems use hydrogen in a fuel cell and the by-product is water.
It does have a few benefits though which has meant the Japanese have gone quite big on the investment:
- Long-term power storage
- Easy to fill up a car (minutes rather than hours)
- Can retrofit existing architecture (petrol stations) with little effort
I do think you are right that there needs to be a bigger rethink around transport infrastructure both with regards to whether people really need lots of cars and how charging infrastructure can be increased.
There was an excellent looking scheme around the corner from me where chargers had been fitted to every lampost which is easy given the power is already connected there. I've seen people using them frequently but I've only ever seen it on that one street.
SB |
I think hydrogen has a role, but it will be a relatively minor one for specific cases and locations. It's isn't the all-encompassing panacea that some people are making it out to be
The thing about it saving us having to retrofit existing architecture is creating problems — I am currently having to deal with resistance to replacing boilers with heat pumps because some people think the gas grid will switch to hydrogen in the not-do-distant future and this will save them the effort of having to make the big changes. The problem is that if we don't get a hydrogen grid (which is by far the most likely scenario), we'll have wasted many years and added more carbon to the atmosphere by not making the change sooner.
Re storage, that is one advantage, but given how long it will take to make hydrogen available at scale, I would hope to see some big advances in battery technology over the same timeframe. | | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 10:18 - Sep 17 with 1925 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Isn't it Drax who generate 'green, renewable, right-on' electricity by burning wood pellets from virgin North Carolina forests - and supplying said eco-warrior elecectricity to North London?
Coal from yorkshire would probably be more ethical, more sustainable - and less costly to the enviroment. | |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 10:22 - Sep 17 with 1922 views | StokieBlue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 09:57 - Sep 17 by ElephantintheRoom |
Yes indeed. In the real world most people are buying second hand cars with petrol or diesel engines.
And no mention that these absurd hybrid cars are largely driven to schools and parked on the pavement to unload cherubs and gas with like-minded mumsies - and then on to waitrose to pick up some blueberrie from peru, flowers from kenya.sweetcorn from senegal etc....
Hobby cars for the self-indulgent - who have usually been too dim to recognise or dont care about resale values |
As stated, I can't drive an older car, especially diesel where I live without incurring a daily fine of 15 GBP. Some would say that's how it should be and to be honest they are probably right but from October 2021 there will be more than 3m people in the same position.
So just buying second hand cars, especially diesels, isn't the solution for everyone as you seem to be claiming.
SB | | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 10:23 - Sep 17 with 1921 views | BloomBlue |
Thanks I was interested in 'the how' when chatting to my neighbor but he was of the opinion they guarantee the supply to his home was made up entirely from renewable and knowing the UK is built on a grid system I couldn't see how, but that article helps explain the now and the potential future | | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 11:03 - Sep 17 with 1907 views | giant_stow |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 10:22 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
As stated, I can't drive an older car, especially diesel where I live without incurring a daily fine of 15 GBP. Some would say that's how it should be and to be honest they are probably right but from October 2021 there will be more than 3m people in the same position.
So just buying second hand cars, especially diesels, isn't the solution for everyone as you seem to be claiming.
SB |
I just bought a 12 year old petrol car (think I might have mentioned this once or twice!) but that's ULEZ compliant, so tbh, its not that tricky. | |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 11:05 - Sep 17 with 1904 views | StokieBlue |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 11:03 - Sep 17 by giant_stow |
I just bought a 12 year old petrol car (think I might have mentioned this once or twice!) but that's ULEZ compliant, so tbh, its not that tricky. |
I'm surprised it's ULEZ compliant. I also wouldn't be surprised if they lower the emissions levels quickly once the ULEZ camera infrastructure is in place.
He also was referring to diesels and I don't think any older diesels are compliant.
SB | | | |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 11:09 - Sep 17 with 1900 views | WeWereZombies |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 14:10 - Sep 16 by StokieBlue |
How would you make enough hydrogen to power the worlds consumption?
I agree it's something that could definitely work but it would need a dedicated scaling up of renewables just to create the hydrogen (essentially shifting power from one store to another: wind -> hydrogen).
SB |
Exactly, I have just had a look on my periodic table and that stuff is right at the bottom end where it can only be made in the laboratory and is so unstable it is only around for seconds.
Oh hang on, I've got the card upside down - turns out that hydrogen is the most ubiquitous element of all.
Sorry, sometimes a statement needs to be qualified.
But researching the current state of hydrogen vehicles throws up some surprising facts:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Rivaz_engine
There must be scope to get a win/win out of gas emissions from landfill by capturing that before it hits the atmosphere and then using it for technology that replaces petrol and diesel power:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_production#Environmental_impact |  |
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| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 11:10 - Sep 17 with 1900 views | giant_stow |
| Plug in Hybrids - not as environmentally friendly as advertised? on 11:05 - Sep 17 by StokieBlue |
I'm surprised it's ULEZ compliant. I also wouldn't be surprised if they lower the emissions levels quickly once the ULEZ camera infrastructure is in place.
He also was referring to diesels and I don't think any older diesels are compliant.
SB |
Yeah my mate told that basically pre 2015 diesels are non-compliant.
And you're right - they probably will tighten up the emission levels, but then they'll be warnings and lead times, by which time the car may have gone capput anyway.
Not aiming this at you, but I do wonder if some eco-car buyers care a little too much about the looks value of being seen in a new car, so won’t countenance an obviously old motor. | |
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