| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 08:29 - Oct 20 with 1687 views | StokieBlue |
It's interesting that a number of the people supporting the declaration are often the same people who tell us to look at the funding or motivation as evidence of an agenda against their position. Yet in this case they are very quiet on this point as they support the declaration.
There was a similar story in the Byline Times last week which made essentially the same points.
SB [Post edited 20 Oct 2020 8:30]
|  |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
|  |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 08:44 - Oct 20 with 1648 views | DanTheMan |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 08:29 - Oct 20 by StokieBlue |
It's interesting that a number of the people supporting the declaration are often the same people who tell us to look at the funding or motivation as evidence of an agenda against their position. Yet in this case they are very quiet on this point as they support the declaration.
There was a similar story in the Byline Times last week which made essentially the same points.
SB [Post edited 20 Oct 2020 8:30]
|
Remember reading the original snippet about them from Richard Murphy (although he went a bit far in that saying Herd Immunity doesn't ever apply to humans). Certainly an interesting lesson in how quickly these things can be spread with a little money behind it. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 08:51 - Oct 20 with 1631 views | Guthrum |
As I've said before, there is an information war going on between those who hate all government interference or who believe society should take the hit so they can carry on making money* and people who are seriously concerned about public health in the midst of a major pandemic**.
Unfortunately, because it is hitting people where it hurts - in their pockets and their family/social lives - those first groups are winning. Nobody likes being nagged by experts to do things they don't want to. Also, modern societies lack the attention span for a long fight. They expected it to be over after the first bout, now it looks unending.
In the middle, you have governments trying to balance epidemiology with economics.
* They are also the people with money to finance "research" and PR. Partly also why there is so much bile directed against the wealthy who break ranks, such as Bill Gates.
** These represent the extremes of a wide spectrum of beliefs, often honestly held. But it does tend to be the extremists who shout loudest. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:09 - Oct 20 with 1579 views | giant_stow |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 08:51 - Oct 20 by Guthrum |
As I've said before, there is an information war going on between those who hate all government interference or who believe society should take the hit so they can carry on making money* and people who are seriously concerned about public health in the midst of a major pandemic**.
Unfortunately, because it is hitting people where it hurts - in their pockets and their family/social lives - those first groups are winning. Nobody likes being nagged by experts to do things they don't want to. Also, modern societies lack the attention span for a long fight. They expected it to be over after the first bout, now it looks unending.
In the middle, you have governments trying to balance epidemiology with economics.
* They are also the people with money to finance "research" and PR. Partly also why there is so much bile directed against the wealthy who break ranks, such as Bill Gates.
** These represent the extremes of a wide spectrum of beliefs, often honestly held. But it does tend to be the extremists who shout loudest. |
The people behind this Great Barrington thingy may well fall into that category (i have no idea), but there're also ligitimate worries about the economic, social and health affects of lockdown too. Not sure what I believe or what alternative there is, but the damage being done to people's well-being is clearly massive. For instance, if you work in a pub, you might well wonder why you're about to lose your job and if its worth it. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:09 - Oct 20 with 1575 views | hype313 |
To be honest no one has any real idea about this Virus as it's so new, so people peddling Herd Immunity have no scientific basis to use, equally comparing it to other virus's is futile, so, unfortunately we are going to have to just live and learn, try to stay safe and hope that we get a better understanding of it and the opportunity to utilise better treatments. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:16 - Oct 20 with 1558 views | Guthrum |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:09 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
The people behind this Great Barrington thingy may well fall into that category (i have no idea), but there're also ligitimate worries about the economic, social and health affects of lockdown too. Not sure what I believe or what alternative there is, but the damage being done to people's well-being is clearly massive. For instance, if you work in a pub, you might well wonder why you're about to lose your job and if its worth it. |
Indeed. One of the issues with the approach to this pandemic has been people believing it will all be over soon and we can return to normal exactly as before, rather than more radical and fundamental thinking about how society may have to change in the future.
That includes new ways of working, conducting social lives and providing for sectors of society who have seen their livelihoods contract or disappear. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:26 - Oct 20 with 1534 views | lowhouseblue |
i'm very pro-herd immunity. but it will take years and or a vaccine. in the meantime stopping people dying unnecessarily is the way to go. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:34 - Oct 20 with 1497 views | Herbivore |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 08:51 - Oct 20 by Guthrum |
As I've said before, there is an information war going on between those who hate all government interference or who believe society should take the hit so they can carry on making money* and people who are seriously concerned about public health in the midst of a major pandemic**.
Unfortunately, because it is hitting people where it hurts - in their pockets and their family/social lives - those first groups are winning. Nobody likes being nagged by experts to do things they don't want to. Also, modern societies lack the attention span for a long fight. They expected it to be over after the first bout, now it looks unending.
In the middle, you have governments trying to balance epidemiology with economics.
* They are also the people with money to finance "research" and PR. Partly also why there is so much bile directed against the wealthy who break ranks, such as Bill Gates.
** These represent the extremes of a wide spectrum of beliefs, often honestly held. But it does tend to be the extremists who shout loudest. |
Somewhat worryingly, our government and the US government are more naturally aligned with that first group. That's why our responses have largely been poor and indecisive and we've ended up with very high numbers of deaths. |  |
| |
Login to get fewer ads
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:35 - Oct 20 with 1495 views | Herbivore |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:09 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
The people behind this Great Barrington thingy may well fall into that category (i have no idea), but there're also ligitimate worries about the economic, social and health affects of lockdown too. Not sure what I believe or what alternative there is, but the damage being done to people's well-being is clearly massive. For instance, if you work in a pub, you might well wonder why you're about to lose your job and if its worth it. |
The government can put support in for people losing or at risk of losing their jobs. They can't bring people back to life. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:42 - Oct 20 with 1460 views | giant_stow |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:35 - Oct 20 by Herbivore |
The government can put support in for people losing or at risk of losing their jobs. They can't bring people back to life. |
Its not really as simple as that though. I mean how do you measure well-being and quality of life and then compare it to death rates? I'm sure people out there are doing this, but I wonder what the calculation looks like. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 with 1452 views | LeoMuff |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:26 - Oct 20 by lowhouseblue |
i'm very pro-herd immunity. but it will take years and or a vaccine. in the meantime stopping people dying unnecessarily is the way to go. |
There has been a number cases of re infection and probably many many more unreported, so doesnt that mean herd immunity is not a viable option ? |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 with 1450 views | Herbivore |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:42 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
Its not really as simple as that though. I mean how do you measure well-being and quality of life and then compare it to death rates? I'm sure people out there are doing this, but I wonder what the calculation looks like. |
Quality of life rather pales in comparison to life and death imo. We're all having to make sacrifices to some extent because of the virus but if it saves lives then I'm all for it. I'm not going to start complaining that I've not had a holiday in over a year and that I can't go to the pub when there are people I know and love who would be goners if they caught Covid. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:49 - Oct 20 with 1428 views | StokieBlue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 by LeoMuff |
There has been a number cases of re infection and probably many many more unreported, so doesnt that mean herd immunity is not a viable option ? |
For natural herd immunity that would be an issue but if it's being facilitated by a vaccine you maintain personal immunity via boosters (like we do with other vaccines) and then that gives herd immunity to the general population.
SB | |
| Avatar - IC410 - Tadpoles Nebula |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:53 - Oct 20 with 1392 views | Swansea_Blue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 by Herbivore |
Quality of life rather pales in comparison to life and death imo. We're all having to make sacrifices to some extent because of the virus but if it saves lives then I'm all for it. I'm not going to start complaining that I've not had a holiday in over a year and that I can't go to the pub when there are people I know and love who would be goners if they caught Covid. |
You'd be surprised at the numbers, of elderly especially, who'd rather take their chances and get to meet their family and friends rather than spend months in solitary. I know a few.
It's difficult. Absolutely the government could take away some of the stress by looking after some of the economic pressures. What's public debt now anyway - about £2 trillion isn't it? Gone up by about £1 trillion over the last decade (it's a myth that Tories balance the books, but that's another thread). It'll never get paid back, just rolled over ad infinitum. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:53 - Oct 20 with 1389 views | lowhouseblue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 by LeoMuff |
There has been a number cases of re infection and probably many many more unreported, so doesnt that mean herd immunity is not a viable option ? |
it's statistics. you can have a number of cases of reinfection, but if the bulk of the population has immunity it won't spread very far. herd-immunity works when you have well less than 100% of the population with resistance. (again i'm saying it's a good outcome not the basis of immediate policy). | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:54 - Oct 20 with 1379 views | giant_stow |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 by Herbivore |
Quality of life rather pales in comparison to life and death imo. We're all having to make sacrifices to some extent because of the virus but if it saves lives then I'm all for it. I'm not going to start complaining that I've not had a holiday in over a year and that I can't go to the pub when there are people I know and love who would be goners if they caught Covid. |
You're right about life/death on an individual basis, but less so on a societal one, I would say.
take a poor but young community somewhere, which survives largely on low-paid retail / entertainment work. All those 30 something parents, who worked in a pub or cafes are now looking at the most miserable, poverty stricken winter of their lives. How do they get through it and put food on their tables, or keep their kids from going crazy? Will their lives even get back to normal afterwards or will the damage be permanent? After months of this, what will those communities look like in health terms? They might even be entitled to ask the question of why they have to suffer to protect people who've already lived long full lives in relative prosperity (I wouldn’t blame them for doing so in their shoes).
I think its easy for those of us in secure jobs or those able to work at home to forget this. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:55 - Oct 20 with 1371 views | giant_stow |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:53 - Oct 20 by Swansea_Blue |
You'd be surprised at the numbers, of elderly especially, who'd rather take their chances and get to meet their family and friends rather than spend months in solitary. I know a few.
It's difficult. Absolutely the government could take away some of the stress by looking after some of the economic pressures. What's public debt now anyway - about £2 trillion isn't it? Gone up by about £1 trillion over the last decade (it's a myth that Tories balance the books, but that's another thread). It'll never get paid back, just rolled over ad infinitum. |
Bang on re your point on the elderly. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:58 - Oct 20 with 1359 views | Herbivore |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:53 - Oct 20 by Swansea_Blue |
You'd be surprised at the numbers, of elderly especially, who'd rather take their chances and get to meet their family and friends rather than spend months in solitary. I know a few.
It's difficult. Absolutely the government could take away some of the stress by looking after some of the economic pressures. What's public debt now anyway - about £2 trillion isn't it? Gone up by about £1 trillion over the last decade (it's a myth that Tories balance the books, but that's another thread). It'll never get paid back, just rolled over ad infinitum. |
But the point is that if we all take a bit of a hit then those in vulnerable groups will be able to have some contact with those that they are close to. I think the suggestion to essentially lock up the vulnerable and anyone who has close contact with them so that the majority can carry on as normal is far worse.
Part of the reason we've struggled in the UK is that too many people who aren't vulnerable seem unwilling to make sacrifices for the greater good, we've seen it from those highest up in government. It shouldn't be a surprise, it's the kind of exceptionalist thinking that led to Brexit and a Tory landslide.
The debt at this point is academic really and every country is taking a huge economic hit. The priority should be protecting people for as long as possible until better treatment or a working vaccine mean we can get back closer to some sort of normality. | |
| |
| Indeed on 09:58 - Oct 20 with 1362 views | Dyland |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:16 - Oct 20 by Guthrum |
Indeed. One of the issues with the approach to this pandemic has been people believing it will all be over soon and we can return to normal exactly as before, rather than more radical and fundamental thinking about how society may have to change in the future.
That includes new ways of working, conducting social lives and providing for sectors of society who have seen their livelihoods contract or disappear. |
People protesting waving banners saying they do not accept a "new normal" is so childish and ignorant. It's a really annoying catchphrase, sure, but if these people have the arse to protest (and that is a good thing), they would be better off pushing exactly how the "new normal" (yeh yeh I hate it too) should look, rather than being toddlers and refusing to believe reality, instead choosing to blame baby sacrificing pedos in the liberal elite cos that lot are honestly the real enemy to social cohesion and fairness and compassion, lol. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:58 - Oct 20 with 1364 views | tractordownsouth |
|  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:00 - Oct 20 with 1348 views | hype313 |
Dear oh dear, neither of them came out of that well. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:01 - Oct 20 with 1350 views | Darth_Koont |
As a rule of thumb whenever the Koch brothers are involved, even tangentially, then it’s something bad for ordinary people. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:02 - Oct 20 with 1341 views | Swansea_Blue |
I didn't know who Dan Wootton was, but what a tvvat. I assumed this would be the other way round, with the guest being the idiot.
Science has forever used herd immunity. Yes, it's called vaccination. | |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:03 - Oct 20 with 1334 views | factual_blue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:01 - Oct 20 by Darth_Koont |
As a rule of thumb whenever the Koch brothers are involved, even tangentially, then it’s something bad for ordinary people. |
They are indeed a pair of kochs. |  |
| |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:03 - Oct 20 with 1332 views | Herbivore |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:54 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
You're right about life/death on an individual basis, but less so on a societal one, I would say.
take a poor but young community somewhere, which survives largely on low-paid retail / entertainment work. All those 30 something parents, who worked in a pub or cafes are now looking at the most miserable, poverty stricken winter of their lives. How do they get through it and put food on their tables, or keep their kids from going crazy? Will their lives even get back to normal afterwards or will the damage be permanent? After months of this, what will those communities look like in health terms? They might even be entitled to ask the question of why they have to suffer to protect people who've already lived long full lives in relative prosperity (I wouldn’t blame them for doing so in their shoes).
I think its easy for those of us in secure jobs or those able to work at home to forget this. |
The government needs to step up and put a safety net around those communities. If the choice is between that or letting tens of thousands die I don't even see that as a choice. | |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
