| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:04 - Oct 20 with 1712 views | NthQldITFC |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 by LeoMuff |
There has been a number cases of re infection and probably many many more unreported, so doesnt that mean herd immunity is not a viable option ? |
I think the terminology gets a little mangled in this debate, which can sometimes cause unnecessary friction.
I'd say that herd immunity as a concept is a desirable outcome, whereas the measures we chose to take, the options, to achieve herd immunity and protect people whilst doing so, are the contentious things. Additionally, whilst a high level of herd immunity would be good, and would drastically reduce the spread of any outbreaks in the future, immunity for any given individual looks to be temporary and will require regular vaccinations or boosters to maintain effectiveness. Mutations in the virus will also be part of the ongoing battle.
That's my understanding, but I'm happy to be corrected by those with a better understanding. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:06 - Oct 20 with 1695 views | hype313 |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:04 - Oct 20 by NthQldITFC |
I think the terminology gets a little mangled in this debate, which can sometimes cause unnecessary friction.
I'd say that herd immunity as a concept is a desirable outcome, whereas the measures we chose to take, the options, to achieve herd immunity and protect people whilst doing so, are the contentious things. Additionally, whilst a high level of herd immunity would be good, and would drastically reduce the spread of any outbreaks in the future, immunity for any given individual looks to be temporary and will require regular vaccinations or boosters to maintain effectiveness. Mutations in the virus will also be part of the ongoing battle.
That's my understanding, but I'm happy to be corrected by those with a better understanding. |
That's sounds entirely plausible, and in conjunction with what Stokie said about Vaccines being part of herd immunity. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:08 - Oct 20 with 1693 views | Darth_Koont |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:03 - Oct 20 by factual_blue |
They are indeed a pair of kochs. |
On the plus side, one of them called his son Chase Koch so they’ve unwittingly spread some joy and laughter throughout the world. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:16 - Oct 20 with 1677 views | giant_stow |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:03 - Oct 20 by Herbivore |
The government needs to step up and put a safety net around those communities. If the choice is between that or letting tens of thousands die I don't even see that as a choice. |
Agree. But it'll be the same poor youn-ishs who will pay back those govt debts via higher taxes and lower services throughout live.
I'm aware I'm offering no solutions and just moaning btw - just feel profoundly sad for these bods. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:16 - Oct 20 with 1675 views | factual_blue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:08 - Oct 20 by Darth_Koont |
On the plus side, one of them called his son Chase Koch so they’ve unwittingly spread some joy and laughter throughout the world. |
I don't suppose he has a daughter called Fanny? |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:20 - Oct 20 with 1670 views | Swansea_Blue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:58 - Oct 20 by Herbivore |
But the point is that if we all take a bit of a hit then those in vulnerable groups will be able to have some contact with those that they are close to. I think the suggestion to essentially lock up the vulnerable and anyone who has close contact with them so that the majority can carry on as normal is far worse.
Part of the reason we've struggled in the UK is that too many people who aren't vulnerable seem unwilling to make sacrifices for the greater good, we've seen it from those highest up in government. It shouldn't be a surprise, it's the kind of exceptionalist thinking that led to Brexit and a Tory landslide.
The debt at this point is academic really and every country is taking a huge economic hit. The priority should be protecting people for as long as possible until better treatment or a working vaccine mean we can get back closer to some sort of normality. |
I don't disagree. In the same way we need to protect livelihoods, more should be done to consider and address mental health and wellbeing aspects of this as well. We're treating the acute effects of Covid-19 in hospitals and the like, but not much attention is being given to the longer, less-direct chronic effects (impacts of isolation on the vulnerable, impacts of loss of social stimulus on depression rates, side health impacts such as weight gain because people have been moving less and eating/drinking more, etc).
It's not an either or. I don't think it's ever been an either or between tackling the virus and the economy. We need to beat the virus first in order to limit economic impact. And at the same time consider the social impacts, not just the economic one.
In other words we need a wide ranging and inclusive approach to managing the pandemic that seems beyond the ability of this government. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:24 - Oct 20 with 1663 views | Herbivore |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:16 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
Agree. But it'll be the same poor youn-ishs who will pay back those govt debts via higher taxes and lower services throughout live.
I'm aware I'm offering no solutions and just moaning btw - just feel profoundly sad for these bods. |
There's going to need to be some fairly radical solutions post-Covid. All governments are going to have massive debts and society won't last long if all developed countries are forcing the masses to pay high taxes for poor services in order to manage those debts whilst the super rich carry on getting richer. It's going to take some thinking outside the box, don't let the government fool you that it's a binary choice between accepting a short-term hit in terms of deaths versus a longer-term hit in terms of general quality of life. It's a false opposition. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:29 - Oct 20 with 1660 views | pointofblue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:02 - Oct 20 by Swansea_Blue |
I didn't know who Dan Wootton was, but what a tvvat. I assumed this would be the other way round, with the guest being the idiot.
Science has forever used herd immunity. Yes, it's called vaccination. |
Dan Wootton works for The Sun, or at least he used to. I don’t think I need to add anything more! |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:31 - Oct 20 with 1658 views | StokieBlue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:58 - Oct 20 by Herbivore |
But the point is that if we all take a bit of a hit then those in vulnerable groups will be able to have some contact with those that they are close to. I think the suggestion to essentially lock up the vulnerable and anyone who has close contact with them so that the majority can carry on as normal is far worse.
Part of the reason we've struggled in the UK is that too many people who aren't vulnerable seem unwilling to make sacrifices for the greater good, we've seen it from those highest up in government. It shouldn't be a surprise, it's the kind of exceptionalist thinking that led to Brexit and a Tory landslide.
The debt at this point is academic really and every country is taking a huge economic hit. The priority should be protecting people for as long as possible until better treatment or a working vaccine mean we can get back closer to some sort of normality. |
"The debt at this point is academic really and every country is taking a huge economic hit. The priority should be protecting people for as long as possible until better treatment or a working vaccine mean we can get back closer to some sort of normality."
This is spot on.
However I suspect in 3 years time, just before the next election, the government running up a huge national debt will be a firm attack angle for the opposition and their campaigners and the context will be lost.
Not that they won't be spoilt for choice on what to attack of course, the ammunition for them should be almost endless by then.
SB |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:32 - Oct 20 with 1653 views | Swansea_Blue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:16 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
Agree. But it'll be the same poor youn-ishs who will pay back those govt debts via higher taxes and lower services throughout live.
I'm aware I'm offering no solutions and just moaning btw - just feel profoundly sad for these bods. |
There's a decent thread on the twittersphere floating around about how government debts in relation to this work and would be paid back. I'll see if I can dig it out. Yes, there may be some tax rises down the line (could be progressive though), but it could also be tackled by inflationary mechanisms and a focus on growth to shrink the relative size of the debt.
I think you're absolutely right to consider those people who are being genuinely affected by this in ways other than just the direct health impact of the virus. They shouldn't be left behind, even if beting the virus is the priority.
Found it:
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 10:35]
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:36 - Oct 20 with 1651 views | Basuco |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:26 - Oct 20 by lowhouseblue |
i'm very pro-herd immunity. but it will take years and or a vaccine. in the meantime stopping people dying unnecessarily is the way to go. |
Not scientific or tested at any depth, but a couple of my daughters work colleagues have previously tested positive for Covid and subsequently tested negative for antibodies. Not sure anything can be read into this, but it does show how little we actual know about Covid. |  | | |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 12:05 - Oct 20 with 1614 views | giant_stow |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:32 - Oct 20 by Swansea_Blue |
There's a decent thread on the twittersphere floating around about how government debts in relation to this work and would be paid back. I'll see if I can dig it out. Yes, there may be some tax rises down the line (could be progressive though), but it could also be tackled by inflationary mechanisms and a focus on growth to shrink the relative size of the debt.
I think you're absolutely right to consider those people who are being genuinely affected by this in ways other than just the direct health impact of the virus. They shouldn't be left behind, even if beting the virus is the priority.
Found it:
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 10:35]
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Thanks for the link - I will save for lunch. | |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 12:09 - Oct 20 with 1614 views | DanTheMan |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:00 - Oct 20 by hype313 |
Dear oh dear, neither of them came out of that well. |
I don't think Bryant did much wrong there.
He asked him to spell it out, the other guy just said "Great Barrington declaration" without offering anything else.
Think Bryant was within his rights to call him out there. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 12:27 - Oct 20 with 1590 views | jeera |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:16 - Oct 20 by giant_stow |
Agree. But it'll be the same poor youn-ishs who will pay back those govt debts via higher taxes and lower services throughout live.
I'm aware I'm offering no solutions and just moaning btw - just feel profoundly sad for these bods. |
"...who will pay back those govt debts via higher taxes and lower services throughout life."
Mate, we've all been doing that our entire working lives, and the generations before us.
We actually finally paid off the 200 billion or so under Blair before the sh1t hit the fan and it all rocketed again.
The nation's population are perpetually paying off the nation's debt. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 12:27 - Oct 20 with 1589 views | StokieBlue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:32 - Oct 20 by Swansea_Blue |
There's a decent thread on the twittersphere floating around about how government debts in relation to this work and would be paid back. I'll see if I can dig it out. Yes, there may be some tax rises down the line (could be progressive though), but it could also be tackled by inflationary mechanisms and a focus on growth to shrink the relative size of the debt.
I think you're absolutely right to consider those people who are being genuinely affected by this in ways other than just the direct health impact of the virus. They shouldn't be left behind, even if beting the virus is the priority.
Found it:
[Post edited 20 Oct 2020 10:35]
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Governments that are selling debt are very unlikely to be buying assets in the form of other countries debt.
The vast majority will be purchased by private institutions and investors and possibly countries such as China.
There is no point generating capital by selling debt at X and the just paying that capital to another country to receive X. If you are going to receive more than X then you are buying a riskier asset than your own debt which is unlikely as well.
SB | |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 13:09 - Oct 20 with 1568 views | tractordownsouth |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:00 - Oct 20 by hype313 |
Dear oh dear, neither of them came out of that well. |
That's really not a "neither of them came out of that well" scenario. Wootton's a nutcase, as Bryant correctly pointed out. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 13:10 - Oct 20 with 1567 views | tractordownsouth |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 10:29 - Oct 20 by pointofblue |
Dan Wootton works for The Sun, or at least he used to. I don’t think I need to add anything more! |
He's also being sued for libel for writing a column calling Johnny Depp a wife beater and a few years back wrote a column rating women's breasts out of 10. | |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 13:57 - Oct 20 with 1544 views | Basuco |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 09:44 - Oct 20 by LeoMuff |
There has been a number cases of re infection and probably many many more unreported, so doesnt that mean herd immunity is not a viable option ? |
Fanando Gaviria a rider in the Giro d'italia has tested positive for Covid today for the second time this year, the first time was in February, as you say this raises serious questions about herd immunity. [Post edited 20 Oct 2020 14:00]
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 14:39 - Oct 20 with 1530 views | Radlett_blue |
| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 13:57 - Oct 20 by Basuco |
Fanando Gaviria a rider in the Giro d'italia has tested positive for Covid today for the second time this year, the first time was in February, as you say this raises serious questions about herd immunity. [Post edited 20 Oct 2020 14:00]
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Viruses mutate; that's why "herd immunity" is not 100% but also why a vaccine (if found) will also not be 100%. |  |
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| For the pro-herd immunity brigade on 21:02 - Oct 20 with 1490 views | Bluesquid |
An interesting article as to who is behind the funding of this declaration and rightly so questions should be raised.
But who is funding The Guardian?
That's right, you need look no further than Bill Gates himself. | | | |
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