| Brexit 10:36 - Dec 16 with 4803 views | clive_baker |
Hopefully over the coming days and weeks the political posturing subsides and makes way for a softer Brexit, whereby a free trade agreement remains with the EU, rather than reverting to WTO terms, and our ability to diverge is moderated to some degree or pegged to EU terms, which they're seemingly insistent on.
Once the dust settles on Brexit and it becomes chip paper, how likely do we think it is that a party will take a strong re-join position? And will there be appetite for it? As a remainer myself, we lost, and I'm over it. I'm not sure I've got the mental horsepower for years more of Brexit dominating the media and causing further division in this country. A referendum on re-joining followed by 4.5 years of arguing about that feels like a toxic recipe for disaster. I do believe the social, sentimental, economic and logistical practicalities and pain will continue to be felt for some time though.
However, how likely do we think it is that it can & will finally be put to bed as a political issue? |  |
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| Brexit on 13:28 - Dec 16 with 1619 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Brexit on 13:26 - Dec 16 by Moriarty |
I’ve met a fair share of educated English people who actually think that Britain won the war. It’s as if the role of leading nations, such as the US didn’t really matter and that the war on the Eastern Front isn’t taught in all English schools. |
Bit like Waterloo. |  |
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| Brexit on 13:42 - Dec 16 with 1603 views | Moriarty |
Indeed.
Arthur Wellesley, first duke of Waterloo.
Born in Dublin. |  |
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| Brexit on 13:51 - Dec 16 with 1599 views | factual_blue |
| Brexit on 13:42 - Dec 16 by Moriarty |
Indeed.
Arthur Wellesley, first duke of Waterloo.
Born in Dublin. |
The Duke of Wellington.
And of course his contribution at Waterloo was not losing before the Prussians arrived.
Most British military achievements are heroic defences or absolute disasters. |  |
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| Brexit on 14:04 - Dec 16 with 1580 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Brexit on 13:51 - Dec 16 by factual_blue |
The Duke of Wellington.
And of course his contribution at Waterloo was not losing before the Prussians arrived.
Most British military achievements are heroic defences or absolute disasters. |
Typical Tory, claiming all the honour. | |
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| Brexit on 14:05 - Dec 16 with 1579 views | Moriarty |
| Brexit on 13:51 - Dec 16 by factual_blue |
The Duke of Wellington.
And of course his contribution at Waterloo was not losing before the Prussians arrived.
Most British military achievements are heroic defences or absolute disasters. |
Yes! My typo. Mea culpa.
In fairness the British Army also enjoyed some success against unarmed civilians here over the years. | |
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| Brexit on 14:16 - Dec 16 with 1571 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Brexit on 13:14 - Dec 16 by Basuco |
The UK not joining the single currency and open borders was a huge mistake, we never completely bought into the European ideal as we should have done. |
Open borders, yes probably, Euro definitely not. The economies of Europe are too diverse, and disparate, for it to be beneficial for all. The UK would have to give up it's ability to manage it's own monetary policy and interest rates etc. It has been good for Northern Europe, but not the South, it's been a disaster for Greece (albeit partly of their own making)
That said, The UK would definitely not be offered an opt-out in any attempt to re-join the EU. |  | | |
| Brexit on 14:30 - Dec 16 with 1562 views | Darth_Koont |
| Brexit on 11:31 - Dec 16 by Churchman |
I would be surprised if any party went near rejoining the EU. Political suicide not helped by the EUs attitude towards the U.K. before the Brexit vote and since. Obviously, as a single party state once they’ve left the union, Scotland will try and if that’s what they want good luck to them. I think the England will continue to move away from the EU in trade terms. It’s been doing so since long before Brexit anyway. Will we make a success of it? It might in the long term if it replaces the clowns in charge with some sane people, but that’s not likely and in any case.
Inevitably given geography there will be a relationship with Europe, but I think it’ll be very different to how anyone predicts, not least because the EU itself will have to significantly change. |
Agree on the whole. But Scotland is very unlikely to be a single-party state once it leaves the union. Currently the SNP is a massive umbrella for a majority that see an important need to diverge and detach from a failing Union and centralised power in Westminster.
Post-independence, Scotland will be a very interesting place politically and we see what emerges. I imagine a centre-left green coalition government is most likely and we’ll see a much closer alignment to Scandinavian politics and values. But with PR it’ll be possible to take a much wider and more nuanced discussion of policy so who knows? |  |
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| Brexit on 15:27 - Dec 16 with 1545 views | Churchman |
| Brexit on 14:30 - Dec 16 by Darth_Koont |
Agree on the whole. But Scotland is very unlikely to be a single-party state once it leaves the union. Currently the SNP is a massive umbrella for a majority that see an important need to diverge and detach from a failing Union and centralised power in Westminster.
Post-independence, Scotland will be a very interesting place politically and we see what emerges. I imagine a centre-left green coalition government is most likely and we’ll see a much closer alignment to Scandinavian politics and values. But with PR it’ll be possible to take a much wider and more nuanced discussion of policy so who knows? |
In truth, aside from Glagow being a brilliant place for a curry, I know next to nothing about Scotland and it’s politics so your view has far more substance than mine. I hope for the people’s sake you are right. What I do know from certain things I was involved with a few years ago is that the SNP are a pretty unsavoury mob. But there again, that’s politicians all over. |  | | |
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| Brexit on 15:54 - Dec 16 with 1525 views | TJS |
| Brexit on 13:10 - Dec 16 by Moriarty |
“The EU rips up their rules when they need to”.
It was Boris and the U.K. who threatened to break international law during the negotiations. Rabb got sent home from the US with his tail between his legs? Biden is Irish? Any of that ring a bell? [Post edited 16 Dec 2020 13:10]
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The EU is about money - pure and simple.
The average person in Eastern Europe (and I speak from experience) has no great love of the EU. They are there for the money as they take out more than they put in.
I am aware Biden has irish ancestry (along with about 80% of the rest of the USA).
Incidentally I voted Remain if you are interested. |  | | |
| Brexit on 17:39 - Dec 16 with 1492 views | factual_blue |
| Brexit on 14:05 - Dec 16 by Moriarty |
Yes! My typo. Mea culpa.
In fairness the British Army also enjoyed some success against unarmed civilians here over the years. |
Let's not forget the Battle of Mboto Gorge in 1892. | |
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| Brexit on 00:16 - Dec 17 with 1414 views | Churchman |
| Brexit on 14:05 - Dec 16 by Moriarty |
Yes! My typo. Mea culpa.
In fairness the British Army also enjoyed some success against unarmed civilians here over the years. |
Do you ever give the British and in particular the English credit for anything? Just curious. | | | |
| Brexit on 00:28 - Dec 17 with 1411 views | jeera |
| Brexit on 00:16 - Dec 17 by Churchman |
Do you ever give the British and in particular the English credit for anything? Just curious. |
Unsurprisingly it's not easy for our Irish friends to fondly recite too much of anything English.
I do understand this and my only complaint to my own friends who are Irish is that I wish they would maybe differentiate a bit more between the English [us/me] and our government past and present.
I have had Indian people accuse me of colonising them which disappointed me because it's the sort of argument I would normally take their side over anyway, without anyone trying to blame me personally! [Post edited 17 Dec 2020 0:31]
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| Brexit on 05:47 - Dec 17 with 1378 views | noggin |
| Brexit on 00:16 - Dec 17 by Churchman |
Do you ever give the British and in particular the English credit for anything? Just curious. |
Britain's violent past should not be swept under the carpet. |  |
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| Brexit on 06:45 - Dec 17 with 1361 views | bluelagos |
| Brexit on 00:16 - Dec 17 by Churchman |
Do you ever give the British and in particular the English credit for anything? Just curious. |
Of course the Brits have done good things in the world, like Gordon Brown leading the write off of much third world debt.
But it is maybe worth asking yourself why many Irish (and anywhere else once colonised/occupied) are clearly resentful of our past.
In England our schools tells us how great the empire once was, that is a very anglo-centric view of it. Churchill a great British hero is not seen the same in Ireland given the attrocities his black and tans committed.
I once went to a native American reservation museum where I learned how the British settlers, after initially settling with little difficulties soon turned one tribe against another, effectively using them to do our dirty work.
My mate and I obsered "Is there anywhere we went where we didn't fck things up?'' Am yet to find anywhere tbh. |  |
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| Brexit on 07:38 - Dec 17 with 1344 views | Moriarty |
| Brexit on 00:16 - Dec 17 by Churchman |
Do you ever give the British and in particular the English credit for anything? Just curious. |
I certainly do. You’re free to rad my posts whenever you wish.
I invite you however to explain what credit you think the British deserve in an Irish context.
Many Irish, myself included, are warm towards all British despite also being acutely aware of our history including the horror of the famine, the attitude of the British government during the famine when 1m people died and there was mass immigration, the attempted destruction of a language and culture - believe me the list goes on. Most recently, the stated intention of BJ to break international law during the Brexit antics. | |
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| Brexit on 08:08 - Dec 17 with 1318 views | Herbivore |
| Brexit on 07:38 - Dec 17 by Moriarty |
I certainly do. You’re free to rad my posts whenever you wish.
I invite you however to explain what credit you think the British deserve in an Irish context.
Many Irish, myself included, are warm towards all British despite also being acutely aware of our history including the horror of the famine, the attitude of the British government during the famine when 1m people died and there was mass immigration, the attempted destruction of a language and culture - believe me the list goes on. Most recently, the stated intention of BJ to break international law during the Brexit antics. |
Yeah, I really don't think we have a leg to stand on with thus one. Let's not forget Priti Patel suggesting, with a wonky smirking face, that we threaten Ireland with food shortages as a way to try to get our own way over Brexit. A hideous suggestion if taken in isolation, the kind of thing only a sociopathic kunt would come out with, but when you consider some of the historical context it makes it significantly worse. |  |
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| Brexit on 08:58 - Dec 17 with 1294 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Brexit on 07:38 - Dec 17 by Moriarty |
I certainly do. You’re free to rad my posts whenever you wish.
I invite you however to explain what credit you think the British deserve in an Irish context.
Many Irish, myself included, are warm towards all British despite also being acutely aware of our history including the horror of the famine, the attitude of the British government during the famine when 1m people died and there was mass immigration, the attempted destruction of a language and culture - believe me the list goes on. Most recently, the stated intention of BJ to break international law during the Brexit antics. |
As with today it was the political/landed classes that benefited (see also slave trade). Not your average citizen working 16 hours a day in a mill in slavish conditions themselves for a pittance. In fact my Grandad (recently deceased) left school at 14 to work in a mill.
My point is I don't buy the narrative some people push that everyone (English) benefited from Imperialism - largely just the Elite, and your average joe here had it pretty cr@p too to be honest! | | | |
| Brexit on 09:07 - Dec 17 with 1277 views | footers |
| Brexit on 08:58 - Dec 17 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
As with today it was the political/landed classes that benefited (see also slave trade). Not your average citizen working 16 hours a day in a mill in slavish conditions themselves for a pittance. In fact my Grandad (recently deceased) left school at 14 to work in a mill.
My point is I don't buy the narrative some people push that everyone (English) benefited from Imperialism - largely just the Elite, and your average joe here had it pretty cr@p too to be honest! |
You can't compare Ireland's 'pretty crap' in the 1850s to the 'pretty crap' of their English counterparts, I'm afraid. I suggest you do some actual research into the famine and see for yourself the horrific conditions that were part and parcel of life for years, especially in Connacht. |  |
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| Brexit on 09:09 - Dec 17 with 1272 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Brexit on 09:07 - Dec 17 by footers |
You can't compare Ireland's 'pretty crap' in the 1850s to the 'pretty crap' of their English counterparts, I'm afraid. I suggest you do some actual research into the famine and see for yourself the horrific conditions that were part and parcel of life for years, especially in Connacht. |
That wasn’t what I said was it? Read again.
I was making the point about the landowners and political class being the beneficiaries of it. | | | |
| Brexit on 09:16 - Dec 17 with 1261 views | Churchman |
| Brexit on 08:08 - Dec 17 by Herbivore |
Yeah, I really don't think we have a leg to stand on with thus one. Let's not forget Priti Patel suggesting, with a wonky smirking face, that we threaten Ireland with food shortages as a way to try to get our own way over Brexit. A hideous suggestion if taken in isolation, the kind of thing only a sociopathic kunt would come out with, but when you consider some of the historical context it makes it significantly worse. |
Oh I agree and I won’t go there. My knowledge of Anglo/Irish history is woefully inadequate. Yes, I know a few of the basics (Home Rule, Act of Union, the Famine etc) and to say that this country hardly covered itself in glory over its dealings with Ireland is the understatement of the year. And don’t start me on the dreadful Patel! But I think Jeera made a very good point about not blaming people of the present for sins of the past. If people go down that road, how far should we go? The Romans? The Anglo Saxon invasions of the 6th century? The 9th century Vikings? Spanish massacres in S America? Napoleon? Japanese massacres in Asia throughout history? The Conqueror who laid waste to the north? The list is endless. For me, aside from being fascinating in itself, history is something to learn from to avoid making the same mistakes again.
Context for me is also crucial my view in understanding why decisions were made along with being careful in judging people of the past by the standards of today.
When I visited Malaysia a few years ago, we had a good ole tour around Georgetown Penang and the guide described how how it worked and howthe British managed all the different religions/people. Basically they just let them get on with it (after pinching the best bit of land for the Colonial buildings, flagpole etc). Oh, that’s very liberal/altruistic thought I. No it wasn’t, the British were just short on manpower and if there was any trouble they’d just fire a cannon down the street to calm things down. | | | |
| Brexit on 09:24 - Dec 17 with 1248 views | noggin |
| Brexit on 09:16 - Dec 17 by Churchman |
Oh I agree and I won’t go there. My knowledge of Anglo/Irish history is woefully inadequate. Yes, I know a few of the basics (Home Rule, Act of Union, the Famine etc) and to say that this country hardly covered itself in glory over its dealings with Ireland is the understatement of the year. And don’t start me on the dreadful Patel! But I think Jeera made a very good point about not blaming people of the present for sins of the past. If people go down that road, how far should we go? The Romans? The Anglo Saxon invasions of the 6th century? The 9th century Vikings? Spanish massacres in S America? Napoleon? Japanese massacres in Asia throughout history? The Conqueror who laid waste to the north? The list is endless. For me, aside from being fascinating in itself, history is something to learn from to avoid making the same mistakes again.
Context for me is also crucial my view in understanding why decisions were made along with being careful in judging people of the past by the standards of today.
When I visited Malaysia a few years ago, we had a good ole tour around Georgetown Penang and the guide described how how it worked and howthe British managed all the different religions/people. Basically they just let them get on with it (after pinching the best bit of land for the Colonial buildings, flagpole etc). Oh, that’s very liberal/altruistic thought I. No it wasn’t, the British were just short on manpower and if there was any trouble they’d just fire a cannon down the street to calm things down. |
I think the problem people have is that, generally, British people are either ignorant of the past, or worse celebrate it. The Rule Britannia attitude really is an insult to many people from around the world and is forced down their throats at every opportunity.
In comparison, German people are mostly respectful of their past and clearly feel the shame associated with it. | |
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| Brexit on 09:36 - Dec 17 with 1239 views | Churchman |
| Brexit on 09:24 - Dec 17 by noggin |
I think the problem people have is that, generally, British people are either ignorant of the past, or worse celebrate it. The Rule Britannia attitude really is an insult to many people from around the world and is forced down their throats at every opportunity.
In comparison, German people are mostly respectful of their past and clearly feel the shame associated with it. |
Is ‘rule Britannia’ really forced down people’s throat's? Football supporters and drunks in Magaluf, I’d agree with you but aside from that, I’ve not really seen a lot of it.
As for Germans, I think they are quite proud of their past, with the exception of 1939/45, but maybe they have it in better context. I’ve no idea how history is taught in Germany tbh but. I’ve got to know a few over the years, stayed there etc, and conversations about the past are always interesting. What is clear to me is their view on the British is not how we see ourselves. | | | |
| Brexit on 09:39 - Dec 17 with 1234 views | noggin |
| Brexit on 09:36 - Dec 17 by Churchman |
Is ‘rule Britannia’ really forced down people’s throat's? Football supporters and drunks in Magaluf, I’d agree with you but aside from that, I’ve not really seen a lot of it.
As for Germans, I think they are quite proud of their past, with the exception of 1939/45, but maybe they have it in better context. I’ve no idea how history is taught in Germany tbh but. I’ve got to know a few over the years, stayed there etc, and conversations about the past are always interesting. What is clear to me is their view on the British is not how we see ourselves. |
Look at the uproar when it was suggested Rule Britannia be withdrawn from LNOTP.
To be fair, football fans and drunken tourists are a large part of Britain's representation abroad. No other nationality acts the way our tourists do. [Post edited 17 Dec 2020 9:42]
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| Brexit on 09:56 - Dec 17 with 1212 views | Moriarty |
| Brexit on 08:08 - Dec 17 by Herbivore |
Yeah, I really don't think we have a leg to stand on with thus one. Let's not forget Priti Patel suggesting, with a wonky smirking face, that we threaten Ireland with food shortages as a way to try to get our own way over Brexit. A hideous suggestion if taken in isolation, the kind of thing only a sociopathic kunt would come out with, but when you consider some of the historical context it makes it significantly worse. |
Indeed. It was quite odious of her and you’ve got the context spot on. How much at odds her behaviour was with that of treasury solicitor Jonathan Jones who resigned over BJ’s antics and disregard for international law.
When Boris came to Dublin late last year, our then Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar probably summed up the views of most Irish people when he said that Ireland wanted to be Britain’s friend during and after Brexit, that Ireland wanted to be Britain’s Athena. | |
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| Brexit on 10:02 - Dec 17 with 1199 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Brexit on 09:56 - Dec 17 by Moriarty |
Indeed. It was quite odious of her and you’ve got the context spot on. How much at odds her behaviour was with that of treasury solicitor Jonathan Jones who resigned over BJ’s antics and disregard for international law.
When Boris came to Dublin late last year, our then Taoiseach, Leo Varadkar probably summed up the views of most Irish people when he said that Ireland wanted to be Britain’s friend during and after Brexit, that Ireland wanted to be Britain’s Athena. |
Think Varadkar was referring to the birth of Ireland as a nation, can’t really regard Ireland as being warlike. | |
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