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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 18:25 - Jan 26 by lowhouseblue
the one thing that is definitely clear is that no one who uses the phrase uses it with a racist intent. almost all would do so without any inkling of this dispute. no one intends it as a reference to slavery in any way and there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it having been used in the past to carry racist implications. so using it today isn't a throw back to any dark history in the actual usage of the word. it's a fuss about nothing.
Language isn’t and can’t be defined by the writer/speaker’s intention. The reader/listener and their inference of meaning is just as important – and I’d argue more important.
I’d have thought that was pretty obvious to anyone.
Pronouns: He/Him
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 18:39 - Jan 26 with 1945 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 18:29 - Jan 26 by monytowbray
Once upon a time the argument you're making was made in that regard though.
If you live by what you think the future will look like, you can save a lot of mental bother.
good comparing 2 completely unrelated things in order to reach a sweeping conclusion. if there was evidence of the claimed derivation of nitty gritty you might have a point, but there doesn't seem to be.
but any way, the bbc says it's ok so that's fine with me.
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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I never knew this about that word/phrase (n/t) on 18:40 - Jan 26 with 1941 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 18:39 - Jan 26 by lowhouseblue
good comparing 2 completely unrelated things in order to reach a sweeping conclusion. if there was evidence of the claimed derivation of nitty gritty you might have a point, but there doesn't seem to be.
but any way, the bbc says it's ok so that's fine with me.
This post has been edited by an administrator
Pronouns: He/Him
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 18:44 - Jan 26 with 1927 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 17:13 - Jan 26 by monytowbray
Expert opinion on historic matters and context.
But alas, I'm not the one who needs to be deflecting a question to begin with.
Life is so much easier if you don't double down about trivial matters that have no impact on your life beyond making living beings more tolerable to each other.
Which expert opinions are you basing this on? As others have pointed out a Google search gives conflicting answers so it's not unreasonable that others have reached a different conclusion.
I'm thinking it's a fuss over nothing but I'll remain open minded if there's something concrete to change my mind.
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 19:00 - Jan 26 by Mr_J
Which expert opinions are you basing this on? As others have pointed out a Google search gives conflicting answers so it's not unreasonable that others have reached a different conclusion.
I'm thinking it's a fuss over nothing but I'll remain open minded if there's something concrete to change my mind.
To be fair I’m not overly bothered because it’s just a phrase. Been told to grow up twice ironically during this thread by anti-antifa though!
Not being able to say a word isn’t going to oppress anyone to the same levels of institutional racism (and the example there should be applied in wider context, like people moaning about colonial statues being pulled down).
Why do I have to cite evidence by the way? No one else has for the crying culture wars club.
I did some more in-depth research on 'Nitty Gritty' ( hint: Google Scholar is your friend ) and the origin is not well documented.
Clearly from this article 'white people' were not in on its original meaning.
The Real Nitty Gritty W. R. Higginbotham and J.A. American Speech Vol. 49, No. 1/2 (Spring - Summer, 1974), pp. 90-101 (12 pages) Published By: Duke University Press
Another citation in Word Origins And How We Know Them: Etymology for Everyone Anatoly Liberman Oxford University Press, 13 Apr 2009 Brings us willy-nilly a much older word ( Oxford English Dictionary of 1608 ) ( mentions it being obscene not racist )
Human Factors and Ergonomics in Practice: Improving System Performance and Human Well-Being in the Real World by Steven Shorrock and Claire Williams 18 Nov 2016
This book uses nitty-gritty in the way I always believed was its meaning. The footnote explains the context of nitty-gritty and does not know its origins
Thus endeth the lesson
[Post edited 26 Jan 2021 20:30]
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I don't think you can say...... on 20:22 - Jan 26 with 1802 views
I don't think you can say...... on 18:00 - Jan 26 by m14_blue
It is pretty much the preserve of total bellends to be fair.
Dolly being an honourable exception obviously.
No. "Woke" actually means being aware of modern trends in order to be decent and respectful of others. Anyone saying it's bellends is usually a fat, racist, Jim Davidson reminiscing c-unit. m14 being an honourable exception obviously.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:25 - Jan 26 with 1796 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:21 - Jan 26 by Eireannach_gorm
I did some more in-depth research on 'Nitty Gritty' ( hint: Google Scholar is your friend ) and the origin is not well documented.
Clearly from this article 'white people' were not in on its original meaning.
The Real Nitty Gritty W. R. Higginbotham and J.A. American Speech Vol. 49, No. 1/2 (Spring - Summer, 1974), pp. 90-101 (12 pages) Published By: Duke University Press
Another citation in Word Origins And How We Know Them: Etymology for Everyone Anatoly Liberman Oxford University Press, 13 Apr 2009 Brings us willy-nilly a much older word ( Oxford English Dictionary of 1608 ) ( mentions it being obscene not racist )
Human Factors and Ergonomics in Practice: Improving System Performance and Human Well-Being in the Real World by Steven Shorrock and Claire Williams 18 Nov 2016
This book uses nitty-gritty in the way I always believed was its meaning. The footnote explains the context of nitty-gritty and does not know its origins
Thus endeth the lesson
[Post edited 26 Jan 2021 20:30]
It doesn’t suggest the argument that it’s not problematic is 100% either.
But well done on being the first person to look things up. It does drag on here.
PS Google Scholar is dated, it exists for university bibliography and little else considering expert opinion can come in the format of tweets ;)
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 19:59 - Jan 26 by monytowbray
To be fair I’m not overly bothered because it’s just a phrase. Been told to grow up twice ironically during this thread by anti-antifa though!
Not being able to say a word isn’t going to oppress anyone to the same levels of institutional racism (and the example there should be applied in wider context, like people moaning about colonial statues being pulled down).
Why do I have to cite evidence by the way? No one else has for the crying culture wars club.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2021 20:02]
I was asking for some evidence because I'm curious but nevermind then.
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:32 - Jan 26 with 1777 views
No. "Woke" actually means being aware of modern trends in order to be decent and respectful of others. Anyone saying it's bellends is usually a fat, racist, Jim Davidson reminiscing c-unit. m14 being an honourable exception obviously.
Woke is a world with African American origin that has been largely adopted by white culture without much credit, and ironically used as an anti-racist slur.
But that’s about it to my knowledge.
Dolly, has someone given you a free sampler trial of Andrew Neil’s new GB news lately? You’ve been very odd!
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:25 - Jan 26 by monytowbray
It doesn’t suggest the argument that it’s not problematic is 100% either.
But well done on being the first person to look things up. It does drag on here.
PS Google Scholar is dated, it exists for university bibliography and little else considering expert opinion can come in the format of tweets ;)
And your source is 11 years old.
[Post edited 26 Jan 2021 20:29]
I can't go to the library so I had to make do with peer reviewed books and articles on the web. not sure the significance of the age of the items or are you suggesting the word has become racist in recent years? Must admit I have never heard of the word being racist and did not know it originated in the American Black Community.
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:40 - Jan 26 with 1761 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 17:33 - Jan 26 by azuremerlangus
So now it appears, without any definitive evidence, that what everyone thought was just a saying to mean the important nub of an issue is now a potentially racist comment? Further more, we now have the situation where people are going to get offended who were not before, and by people who didn't mean to offend in the first place.
I can almost hear the South Park script writers scribbling notes for the next series (sorry,' season')
Sorry, rant over (bad day at the office - which is currently my kitchen)
[Post edited 26 Jan 2021 17:45]
I have to say this isn’t new to me. I was told bizarrely on a health and safety course years ago. It relates to cleaning on slave ships. When the captain of the ship wanted to do a thorough clean, he’d say something like let’s clean down to the nitty gritty. The nitty gritty being the decks where the slaves were held.
Obviously I don’t know where he H&s instructor got this info from but it seems plausible and I have never challenged it before.
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:41 - Jan 26 with 1762 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 18:07 - Jan 26 by SpruceMoose
Which idiot told you that?!
My creative partner, who is Bulgarian. And then confirmed by my girlfriend, who is Irish. Both are at least a decade younger than me. Not really on to call them idiots. Maybe they're just more on the ball about what's acceptable than us. Maybe we're the ignorant ones.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:42 - Jan 26 with 1755 views
I never knew this about that word/phrase on 20:36 - Jan 26 by Eireannach_gorm
I can't go to the library so I had to make do with peer reviewed books and articles on the web. not sure the significance of the age of the items or are you suggesting the word has become racist in recent years? Must admit I have never heard of the word being racist and did not know it originated in the American Black Community.
The word “g@y” wasn’t a slur once upon a time. It had a whole other meaning. As did “que3r”, which I still hear people say all the time as if it’s fine.
Language evolves, which oddly works for both sides of the argument.
If people want to say stuff like that after becoming aware of it being a bit EDGELORD, that’s up to them, they can own whatever positives/negatives come from it personally.
My biggest gripe is many of those bothered in said thread hadn’t really listened to the argument, but felt the need to immediately whinge about the left and cancel culture. Many of which claim to be left wing but don’t seem to be bothered about any forms of racism, let alone a debatably passing phrase.
I don't think you can say...... on 20:36 - Jan 26 by monytowbray
Woke is a world with African American origin that has been largely adopted by white culture without much credit, and ironically used as an anti-racist slur.
But that’s about it to my knowledge.
Dolly, has someone given you a free sampler trial of Andrew Neil’s new GB news lately? You’ve been very odd!
I'm not the one being odd in this thread, love.
Trust the process. Trust Phil.
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I don't think you can say...... on 21:06 - Jan 26 with 1724 views
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