| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:38 - Feb 7 with 1229 views | J2BLUE |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:36 - Feb 7 by ElderGrizzly |
I’d hope no-one is put off too, because some protection is better than none.
I’d still rather have AZ than Pfizer based on the current dosing strategy in the UK, as we still need the evidence that Pfizer works on a 12 week gap as well as it should.
My wife who is clinically vulnerable (due to chemo) has had the AZ one and i’m thrilled she has.
The worry is any drop in protection just elongates things such as national lockdowns etc and as some on here will tell you, they believe that is maybe more damaging than Covid itself |
If it does protect against hospitalisation and death we won't need lockdowns? |  |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:40 - Feb 7 with 1227 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:38 - Feb 7 by J2BLUE |
If it does protect against hospitalisation and death we won't need lockdowns? |
We will need less draconian measures, but if transmission remains high we will see restrictions |  | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:40 - Feb 7 with 1223 views | StokieBlue |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:31 - Feb 7 by WD19 |
And went on add......The company said it believed its vaccine could protect against severe disease, given that the neutralising antibody activity was equivalent to that of other Covid-19 vaccines that have demonstrated protection against severe disease. |
Indeed they did say that, however as per my post it's a "belief". Hopefully the data will prove it to be correct once it's gathered and released but they don't have any data on anyone over 31 years old at the moment so I was just being precise on the situation.
Worth noting that Pfizer and Moderna haven't produced studies outside lab testing (that I've seen anyway) on their efficacy against the SA variant yet but they do know it's reduced, perhaps significantly. Citing those as a comparison isn't really evidence. On the plus side all are still working well against the B1.1.7 mutations (Kent variant). This is why the heavy testing in areas where the E484K (SA variant) has been found.
SB |  |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:40 - Feb 7 with 1231 views | blueblueburleymcgrew |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:18 - Feb 7 by Clapham_Junction |
Separate to this - does anyone know what's going on with the vaccination drive? Two members of my family are volunteering at vaccination centres, and both were very quiet today - one closed a couple of hours early due to the lack of people coming to get vaccinated (they are not in areas with terrible weather either). I'd have thought we'd be getting people through them as quickly as possible. [Post edited 7 Feb 2021 21:19]
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Where are they working? As you probably know there is a big problem of take up in some communities bizarrely even amongst some NHS staff. My wife is training the vaccinators in London and it’s a real concern for everyone involved. |  | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:46 - Feb 7 with 1211 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:40 - Feb 7 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Where are they working? As you probably know there is a big problem of take up in some communities bizarrely even amongst some NHS staff. My wife is training the vaccinators in London and it’s a real concern for everyone involved. |
Addenbrookes had to suspend vaccinations for staffbecause of less than expected take up this week | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 22:46 - Feb 7 with 1163 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 21:40 - Feb 7 by blueblueburleymcgrew |
Where are they working? As you probably know there is a big problem of take up in some communities bizarrely even amongst some NHS staff. My wife is training the vaccinators in London and it’s a real concern for everyone involved. |
Stevenage/Cambridge |  | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:35 - Feb 8 with 1061 views | TractorWood |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 20:53 - Feb 7 by Funge |
To counter your usual and repeated gloom with all things COVID, it is worth mentioning that further down the article it is mentioned that:-
'All the vaccines, however, have been found to protect against the most severe disease, hospitalisation and death' |
The Guardian although excellent does revel in alarmism. |  |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:37 - Feb 8 with 1057 views | Funge |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:35 - Feb 8 by TractorWood |
The Guardian although excellent does revel in alarmism. |
Yep, agree with that - been a large failing on their part since the start of the pandemic.
The paper was unreadable when the pandemic broke. |  | | |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:45 - Feb 8 with 1049 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:35 - Feb 8 by TractorWood |
The Guardian although excellent does revel in alarmism. |
Although with this it is simply reporting what AZ are saying.
And it appears the vaccine is 10% effective against the SA variant, not 33% leaked yesterday
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/08/oxford-covid-vaccine-10-effective-
There is some hope (see below) that 10% is the worst end of the scale, but it makes the need for the booster currently being developed even more important
"He said its effectiveness against serious infection could possibly be inferred based on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which uses “similar technology”. “Extrapolating from that, there’s still some hope that the AstraZeneca vaccine might well perform as well as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in a different age demographic that are at highest risk of severe disease" [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 10:47]
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:49 - Feb 8 with 1041 views | Funge |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:45 - Feb 8 by ElderGrizzly |
Although with this it is simply reporting what AZ are saying.
And it appears the vaccine is 10% effective against the SA variant, not 33% leaked yesterday
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/08/oxford-covid-vaccine-10-effective-
There is some hope (see below) that 10% is the worst end of the scale, but it makes the need for the booster currently being developed even more important
"He said its effectiveness against serious infection could possibly be inferred based on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which uses “similar technology”. “Extrapolating from that, there’s still some hope that the AstraZeneca vaccine might well perform as well as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in a different age demographic that are at highest risk of severe disease" [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 10:47]
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Once again, further down the article -
Scientists who conducted a small-scale trial of the vaccine’s efficacy said it showed very little protection against mild to moderate infection, though they expressed hope that — in theory — *it would still offer significant protection against more serious infection*
If it's protecting against serious infection, then this is A Very Good Thing, right, or am I missing something? | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:52 - Feb 8 with 1036 views | TractorWood |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:45 - Feb 8 by ElderGrizzly |
Although with this it is simply reporting what AZ are saying.
And it appears the vaccine is 10% effective against the SA variant, not 33% leaked yesterday
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/08/oxford-covid-vaccine-10-effective-
There is some hope (see below) that 10% is the worst end of the scale, but it makes the need for the booster currently being developed even more important
"He said its effectiveness against serious infection could possibly be inferred based on the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, which uses “similar technology”. “Extrapolating from that, there’s still some hope that the AstraZeneca vaccine might well perform as well as the Johnson & Johnson vaccine in a different age demographic that are at highest risk of severe disease" [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 10:47]
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Thanks for the hyperlink to an alarmist Guardian article. That really disproves the Guardian's alarmism. | |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:56 - Feb 8 with 1030 views | StokieBlue |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:49 - Feb 8 by Funge |
Once again, further down the article -
Scientists who conducted a small-scale trial of the vaccine’s efficacy said it showed very little protection against mild to moderate infection, though they expressed hope that — in theory — *it would still offer significant protection against more serious infection*
If it's protecting against serious infection, then this is A Very Good Thing, right, or am I missing something? |
You are correct. It would mean less hospitalisations and deaths but it would mean a lot of mild to moderate infection throughout the population. This is far better than where we are now but not ideal as it gives the virus far more opportunity to mutate into something that improves on the E484K mutation. It would also likely mean a lot of unknown vulnerable people would still be in danger.
However at the moment it's all informed guesswork as they don't have data on whether it protects against severe infection as the sample size was too small and the people all too young. SA have suspended use of the AZ vaccine as of today as obviously the variant with the E484K mutation is dominant there.
SB | |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:04 - Feb 8 with 1015 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:52 - Feb 8 by TractorWood |
Thanks for the hyperlink to an alarmist Guardian article. That really disproves the Guardian's alarmism. |
Yet every other media outlet is reporting it in exactly the same way, as it is a press release from AZ... | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:07 - Feb 8 with 1009 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:49 - Feb 8 by Funge |
Once again, further down the article -
Scientists who conducted a small-scale trial of the vaccine’s efficacy said it showed very little protection against mild to moderate infection, though they expressed hope that — in theory — *it would still offer significant protection against more serious infection*
If it's protecting against serious infection, then this is A Very Good Thing, right, or am I missing something? |
Yes, I included the positive "hope" too in my post.
And right now it is an extrapolation that it might provide protection against serious infection. If that is enough for you then great.
We are always going to need boosters against mutations/variants, the concern here and what is being discussed in Govt is this could prevent restrictions being lifted until we either eradicate the SA variant from the UK or have the booster. | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:11 - Feb 8 with 1001 views | Funge |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:07 - Feb 8 by ElderGrizzly |
Yes, I included the positive "hope" too in my post.
And right now it is an extrapolation that it might provide protection against serious infection. If that is enough for you then great.
We are always going to need boosters against mutations/variants, the concern here and what is being discussed in Govt is this could prevent restrictions being lifted until we either eradicate the SA variant from the UK or have the booster. |
'If that is enough for you then great.'
Sorry, what on earth does this mean? | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:15 - Feb 8 with 993 views | Funge |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 10:56 - Feb 8 by StokieBlue |
You are correct. It would mean less hospitalisations and deaths but it would mean a lot of mild to moderate infection throughout the population. This is far better than where we are now but not ideal as it gives the virus far more opportunity to mutate into something that improves on the E484K mutation. It would also likely mean a lot of unknown vulnerable people would still be in danger.
However at the moment it's all informed guesswork as they don't have data on whether it protects against severe infection as the sample size was too small and the people all too young. SA have suspended use of the AZ vaccine as of today as obviously the variant with the E484K mutation is dominant there.
SB |
Thanks, that's useful.
So it seems that the strategy is to adapt the existing vaccines to allow for future mutations; I've seen the phrase 'cat and mouse' bandied around a lot recently.
Presumably annual jabs for the elderly and vulnerable going forwards, akin to the current flu jabs?
Again, this seems wholly manageable. | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:22 - Feb 8 with 974 views | StokieBlue |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:15 - Feb 8 by Funge |
Thanks, that's useful.
So it seems that the strategy is to adapt the existing vaccines to allow for future mutations; I've seen the phrase 'cat and mouse' bandied around a lot recently.
Presumably annual jabs for the elderly and vulnerable going forwards, akin to the current flu jabs?
Again, this seems wholly manageable. |
It's hard to adapt the vaccines to allow for future mutations, it's more likely that the vaccines will be adapted after the mutations take root because they are very hard to predict. I guess this is where the term cat and mouse is being used. The mRNA vaccines are excellent for being quickly modified, they are saying they can update the mRNA code in about 6 weeks.
With regards to dosage rates that is simply an unknown. It could be once a year, it might be twice a year or it might be less frequently - there just hasn't been time to study this yet. We will know more by August when it's been 6 months in peoples systems. It's also likely it will be jabs for everyone, not just the elderly and vulnerable given it's more contagious and has a higher mortality than flu - at least to begin with.
As you say it's all manageable but there are a lot of unknowns at the moment. Two hugely beneficial mutations to the virus have made it more resistant to vaccines and far more contagious. We just have to see what happens and try and minimise the amount of C19 that has time to mutate.
Certainly no need to panic, just also need to be realistic about the situation.
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:31 - Feb 8 with 965 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:11 - Feb 8 by Funge |
'If that is enough for you then great.'
Sorry, what on earth does this mean? |
If you are happy they think it might protect against serious infection. They don't know, which is why every Government around the world is concerned about that particular variant.
And it will be another 2 to 3 months before we do know, hence the worry about restrictions not lifting for some time until they do. | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:32 - Feb 8 with 960 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:15 - Feb 8 by Funge |
Thanks, that's useful.
So it seems that the strategy is to adapt the existing vaccines to allow for future mutations; I've seen the phrase 'cat and mouse' bandied around a lot recently.
Presumably annual jabs for the elderly and vulnerable going forwards, akin to the current flu jabs?
Again, this seems wholly manageable. |
Yes, that is where we are going even before the SA variant news.
Annual (or 6 montly) vaccine regimes which would be perfectly ok.
The point is we need to get to a position where 'normal vaccinations' is possible and a SA variant becoming dominant in the UK is only going to delay it. | | | |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:39 - Feb 8 with 954 views | Swansea_Blue |
I don't think this can be dismissed purely because it it's only mild to moderate cases that are the issue. They can still be exceedingly debilitating.
They have other vaccines in development though that are aimed at tackling future variants. Kate Bingham talks about this in a recent interview (that's well worth a read in terms of understanding how the UK go the jump on the vaccines). - https://www.repubblica.it/cronaca/2021/02/07/news/kate_bingham_interview_vaccine
That's the good news. The possible not so good news is that the current vaccines are not yet having a noticeable positive effect on case rates in the older age groups. Which is a bit of a surprise and, although not worrying yet, is something we'd hope to see change soon.
Edit - I see I'm late to the party as usual. The Billingham interview is worth a read though as it talks in more detail some of the things that have been discussed in this thread. [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 11:41]
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:43 - Feb 8 with 948 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 11:15 - Feb 8 by Funge |
Thanks, that's useful.
So it seems that the strategy is to adapt the existing vaccines to allow for future mutations; I've seen the phrase 'cat and mouse' bandied around a lot recently.
Presumably annual jabs for the elderly and vulnerable going forwards, akin to the current flu jabs?
Again, this seems wholly manageable. |
The ultimate aim is to roll the Covid jab in with the flu jab, as at the moment there needs to be a 3 week gap between the two which is obviously logistically costly.
It sounds like annual Covid jabs may become the new norm for a few years. Probably with a much wider pool than those who currently receive the flu jab. | |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 12:34 - Feb 8 with 916 views | StokieBlue |
AZ have released the results of the study and it's showing 10% efficacy against the SA E484K variant with regards to protecting against mild to moderate infection.
Not ideal but there is still no data on whether it protects against more severe infection. inference from the J&J vaccine is promising but they will need to run their own study. This is going to be key, it's not ideal that it doesn't protect against mild to moderate infection as it allows the virus a chance to mutate but if it protects against severe infection that would still be excellent.
It's worth bearing in mind the study was a very small sample size and within a young age cohort.
SB | |
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| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 12:38 - Feb 8 with 902 views | J2BLUE |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 12:34 - Feb 8 by StokieBlue |
AZ have released the results of the study and it's showing 10% efficacy against the SA E484K variant with regards to protecting against mild to moderate infection.
Not ideal but there is still no data on whether it protects against more severe infection. inference from the J&J vaccine is promising but they will need to run their own study. This is going to be key, it's not ideal that it doesn't protect against mild to moderate infection as it allows the virus a chance to mutate but if it protects against severe infection that would still be excellent.
It's worth bearing in mind the study was a very small sample size and within a young age cohort.
SB |
The government really need to stop pissing about now and have proper border controls. | |
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| I assume that they haven't..... on 12:42 - Feb 8 with 894 views | Bloots |
| Change in vaccination strategy coming? on 12:34 - Feb 8 by StokieBlue |
AZ have released the results of the study and it's showing 10% efficacy against the SA E484K variant with regards to protecting against mild to moderate infection.
Not ideal but there is still no data on whether it protects against more severe infection. inference from the J&J vaccine is promising but they will need to run their own study. This is going to be key, it's not ideal that it doesn't protect against mild to moderate infection as it allows the virus a chance to mutate but if it protects against severe infection that would still be excellent.
It's worth bearing in mind the study was a very small sample size and within a young age cohort.
SB |
....performed this study within the 21 days after receiving the vaccine and have followed the basic guidance of allowing immunity to build up?
We had this issue with the study that came out if Israel a few weeks back.
Either way 2,000 31 year olds does seem a bit selective. |  |
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