| Starmers in for a bumpy time 13:53 - Feb 8 with 4569 views | hype313 |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 20:38 - Feb 8 with 1328 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 20:27 - Feb 8 by C_HealyIsAPleasure |
It wasn’t just Brexit but that’s beside the point - the starting point was the starting point regardless of why they were there. And it’s completely dishonest to list reasons being 4 points behind is a failure without acknowledging that the starting point was a further 20 points back
If only your second paragraph was true so you could spare us this rubbish |
Whatever makes you feel better. Let’s say Starmer’s doing well and he’s what the UK needs. |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:22 - Feb 8 with 1288 views | gazzer1999 |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 14:07 - Feb 8 by itfcjoe |
There's not an election due, so whilst the polls are not moving much it's not that relevant at the moment.
There are huge swathes of the public who either support BJ entirely, or don't want to see the Govt attacked in what is a wartime like effort required - it's a difficult balancing act. It feels as though KS is going to need to wait until the whole thing blows over before going after them, when it is all done and the starkness of our death rate and our economy, plus the vaccine roll out are clear for all to see |
The big problem with this is when we add up the cost in £, who is really wanting to run the country with absolutely no money. In most of my lifetime the Labour Party usually inherit finances in pretty good shape, I remember Gordon Brown being surprised and overwhelmed at what a good job Ken Clark had done with the finances. Rishi Sunak despite being popular has had to borrow mind blowing amounts of money to keep the lights on. Who really wants the job of putting that back in order? I don't think there will be much stomach from either side in four years time. |  | | |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:29 - Feb 8 with 1278 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:22 - Feb 8 by gazzer1999 |
The big problem with this is when we add up the cost in £, who is really wanting to run the country with absolutely no money. In most of my lifetime the Labour Party usually inherit finances in pretty good shape, I remember Gordon Brown being surprised and overwhelmed at what a good job Ken Clark had done with the finances. Rishi Sunak despite being popular has had to borrow mind blowing amounts of money to keep the lights on. Who really wants the job of putting that back in order? I don't think there will be much stomach from either side in four years time. |
The Tories have spent proportionally more when they’ve been in government over the past 60-70 years. Let’s just establish that fact first.
We’ll be paying the price for this government funnelling funds to their friends and taking on the deadweight of Brexit for years. In one sense it’s good that they’ve got another three years to try and defend all this. [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 21:29]
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:52 - Feb 8 with 1253 views | gazzer1999 |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:29 - Feb 8 by Darth_Koont |
The Tories have spent proportionally more when they’ve been in government over the past 60-70 years. Let’s just establish that fact first.
We’ll be paying the price for this government funnelling funds to their friends and taking on the deadweight of Brexit for years. In one sense it’s good that they’ve got another three years to try and defend all this. [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 21:29]
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Wow brave comment, does that mean that they spend more on the health service as well? Or is that a grey area.? | | | |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 22:09 - Feb 8 with 1235 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:22 - Feb 8 by gazzer1999 |
The big problem with this is when we add up the cost in £, who is really wanting to run the country with absolutely no money. In most of my lifetime the Labour Party usually inherit finances in pretty good shape, I remember Gordon Brown being surprised and overwhelmed at what a good job Ken Clark had done with the finances. Rishi Sunak despite being popular has had to borrow mind blowing amounts of money to keep the lights on. Who really wants the job of putting that back in order? I don't think there will be much stomach from either side in four years time. |
Er, you do realise the Tories had been in no. 10 for a whole decade before Sunak became chancellor? Put down the *Mail/Express/Telegraph/shock jock radio station/Facebook/Twitter, they rot your brain.
I know Tories don’t like taking responsibility, but that really is taking the piss.
*delete as appropriate.
Edit - I may have misunderstood your point. I thought you were blaming Labour for Tory borrowing, as it’s a common accusation. Apologies if so and you’re just talking about the borrowing for Covid (and impact of Brexit losses). [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 22:39]
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 22:13 - Feb 8 with 1220 views | jeera |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:52 - Feb 8 by gazzer1999 |
Wow brave comment, does that mean that they spend more on the health service as well? Or is that a grey area.? |
Gazzer, have you been following the insane expenditure of the past year?
You are aware that the accusations of cronyism aren't without foundation?
You also know the government is spending a great amount of public money to fight these accusations? |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 22:18 - Feb 8 with 1214 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:52 - Feb 8 by gazzer1999 |
Wow brave comment, does that mean that they spend more on the health service as well? Or is that a grey area.? |
Not in the last 10 years (relatively). The issue for at least the first half of the 2010s was one of the worst recovery rates after the 2008 recession, due to what many economist think was a failure to stimulate the economy. So more borrowing was needed to fund even relatively lower investment in public services. Actual amounts of public spending rose of course. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 22:26 - Feb 8 with 1206 views | gazzer1999 |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:29 - Feb 8 by Darth_Koont |
The Tories have spent proportionally more when they’ve been in government over the past 60-70 years. Let’s just establish that fact first.
We’ll be paying the price for this government funnelling funds to their friends and taking on the deadweight of Brexit for years. In one sense it’s good that they’ve got another three years to try and defend all this. [Post edited 8 Feb 2021 21:29]
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Thats probably because the Tories borrowed more as well is that a fact ? http://www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2016/03/13/the-conservatives-have-been-the-bi
Not sure if this data is reliable. | | | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 22:32 - Feb 8 with 1199 views | monytowbray |
Cronyism all around you, that’s the evidence really. We’re at a new level of corrupt government spending so any previous data is out. |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 23:42 - Feb 8 with 1168 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:52 - Feb 8 by gazzer1999 |
Wow brave comment, does that mean that they spend more on the health service as well? Or is that a grey area.? |
No, just adding to the debt.
They’re siphoners because that’s what they think economics and the free market is. Taking what you can get – it’s good for them and they don’t understand why everyone doesn’t do it.
But it’s a pyramid scheme of ignorant, unearned privilege. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 00:06 - Feb 9 with 1153 views | J2BLUE |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 21:22 - Feb 8 by gazzer1999 |
The big problem with this is when we add up the cost in £, who is really wanting to run the country with absolutely no money. In most of my lifetime the Labour Party usually inherit finances in pretty good shape, I remember Gordon Brown being surprised and overwhelmed at what a good job Ken Clark had done with the finances. Rishi Sunak despite being popular has had to borrow mind blowing amounts of money to keep the lights on. Who really wants the job of putting that back in order? I don't think there will be much stomach from either side in four years time. |
Ken Clarke was a decent politician. Don't be fooled by Sunak. He's another snake with no morals. |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 00:21 - Feb 9 with 1146 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 13:54 - Feb 8 by itfcjoe |
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I assume he's talking about how the right of the party acted from 2015 to 2019?
Joking aside, it's a shocking lack of self awareness on this point. |  | | |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 07:47 - Feb 9 with 1095 views | Herbivore |
I think anyone who has supported or would support Labour needs to take a step back, chill the feck out, and ask yourselves why you all seem much more intent on in fighting than on attacking and trying to get rid of the worst Tory government in history. What we're seeing now from the left of the party is a mirror image of what the left of the party spent 5 years criticising the centrists in the party of doing to Corbyn. It is, frankly, pathetic. I know a couple of people will bleat on that it was all smears when it came to Corbyn and this is a matter of principle, but that's just a load of balls really. Have a word with yourselves and try remembering who the real enemy - of pretty much everyone - actually is. |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 08:29 - Feb 9 with 1067 views | itfcjoe |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 07:47 - Feb 9 by Herbivore |
I think anyone who has supported or would support Labour needs to take a step back, chill the feck out, and ask yourselves why you all seem much more intent on in fighting than on attacking and trying to get rid of the worst Tory government in history. What we're seeing now from the left of the party is a mirror image of what the left of the party spent 5 years criticising the centrists in the party of doing to Corbyn. It is, frankly, pathetic. I know a couple of people will bleat on that it was all smears when it came to Corbyn and this is a matter of principle, but that's just a load of balls really. Have a word with yourselves and try remembering who the real enemy - of pretty much everyone - actually is. |
I was never a big Corbyn fan, and didn't feel he was the man that would lead Labour to victory - think it was more sue to the fact that when out and talking to people you just couldn't get through any message as he was just like kryptonite to any discussion.
People who I'd speak to in business think he is going to bankrupt the country, which with the build up to the 2019 manifesto and the daily huge spending commitments, plus things like the WASPI statement of just finding another £20bn here for that made it impossible
For those who would be the more traditional working class Labour voters it was the disdain shown at times for the country, the Salisbury poisoning, the sitting on the fence re Brexit.
It was difficult to find a group that could even consider placing their tick in the box for him come 2019, outside of social media for me.
Whatever the reasoning, the left needed to put forward a candidate with a lot less baggage - because Corbyn's foreign policy was a total turn off for so many voters, but who still was able to campaign the way Corbyn did for 2017. Corbyn was in many ways the right man at the right time in 2017, and the campaign from the right wing media didn't really get through - but by the time 2019 came round he hadn't got a hold of anti-semitism, and it was very much Britain Second in many peoples eyes.
I look forward to going into an election where I'll be able to speak to people and not come up against a brick wall |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 09:28 - Feb 9 with 1026 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 08:29 - Feb 9 by itfcjoe |
I was never a big Corbyn fan, and didn't feel he was the man that would lead Labour to victory - think it was more sue to the fact that when out and talking to people you just couldn't get through any message as he was just like kryptonite to any discussion.
People who I'd speak to in business think he is going to bankrupt the country, which with the build up to the 2019 manifesto and the daily huge spending commitments, plus things like the WASPI statement of just finding another £20bn here for that made it impossible
For those who would be the more traditional working class Labour voters it was the disdain shown at times for the country, the Salisbury poisoning, the sitting on the fence re Brexit.
It was difficult to find a group that could even consider placing their tick in the box for him come 2019, outside of social media for me.
Whatever the reasoning, the left needed to put forward a candidate with a lot less baggage - because Corbyn's foreign policy was a total turn off for so many voters, but who still was able to campaign the way Corbyn did for 2017. Corbyn was in many ways the right man at the right time in 2017, and the campaign from the right wing media didn't really get through - but by the time 2019 came round he hadn't got a hold of anti-semitism, and it was very much Britain Second in many peoples eyes.
I look forward to going into an election where I'll be able to speak to people and not come up against a brick wall |
It is easy to understand sitting on the fence over Brexit. Scottish Labour Party has never really recovered from supporting the Tories in the independence referendum. Been known as Red Tories ever since. |  |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 09:39 - Feb 9 with 1009 views | itfcjoe |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 09:28 - Feb 9 by Pinewoodblue |
It is easy to understand sitting on the fence over Brexit. Scottish Labour Party has never really recovered from supporting the Tories in the independence referendum. Been known as Red Tories ever since. |
For me the problem was it took so long to come to sitting on the fence - managed to successfully avoid it in 2017 but weren't gping to be able to in 2019 | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 09:56 - Feb 9 with 990 views | tractordownsouth |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 09:39 - Feb 9 by itfcjoe |
For me the problem was it took so long to come to sitting on the fence - managed to successfully avoid it in 2017 but weren't gping to be able to in 2019 |
As much as I think Corbyn's personal failings were the biggest factor in the defeat, he was a bit damned either way with regards to Brexit. Backing leave would've caused massive vote splits with the Lib Dems, whereas revoking A50 would've been anti-democratic and likely resulted in more red wall seats falling. In the end, I quite liked the policy as it recognised the fact that millions voted to leave whilst also acknowledging the fact that Vote Leave overspent and lied their way to victory. A realistic leave option vs remain would've been fair in my view but I understand why others felt differently. The fact that the policy wasn't changed till Autumn 2019 was an issue too, as you say. Many people didn't really know what the Labour position was.
In hindsight, the biggest damage (something which Corbyn and Starmer both share blame for) was caused by not backing May's deal. It was crap but better than Johnson's and the Labour Party could've credibly said they'd delivered the referendum result and preserved workers rights whilst causing an internal Tory struggle. Then the next election could've been fought on economic issues rather than cultural grounds, thus reducing the Tory surge in the North and Midlands. [Post edited 9 Feb 2021 9:58]
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 10:46 - Feb 9 with 950 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 07:47 - Feb 9 by Herbivore |
I think anyone who has supported or would support Labour needs to take a step back, chill the feck out, and ask yourselves why you all seem much more intent on in fighting than on attacking and trying to get rid of the worst Tory government in history. What we're seeing now from the left of the party is a mirror image of what the left of the party spent 5 years criticising the centrists in the party of doing to Corbyn. It is, frankly, pathetic. I know a couple of people will bleat on that it was all smears when it came to Corbyn and this is a matter of principle, but that's just a load of balls really. Have a word with yourselves and try remembering who the real enemy - of pretty much everyone - actually is. |
You’ll be glad to know I wrote a much longer reply that I lost 😀
But the gist is that this is not some People’s Front of Judea vs. Judean People’s Front silliness. And I know the Labour right and any number of people on here utterly rejected that assessment during the Corbyn years.
There are deeper political and ideological differences here. Corbyn was attacked for unashamedly representing an alternative to neoliberalism and imperialism i.e. democratic socialism and even just genuine social democracy.
Now, Starmer is being attacked for not being that alternative, despite pledging he was going to maintain the progressive platform and also pledging he was committed to unity. So no real alternative and seemingly untrustworthy and highly factional too.
On top of this, I see way too much triangulation and leaning into right-wing values and dogwhistles around family and nation. So not just structurally and economically reinforcing the status quo and direction of travel but also socially and culturally. That’s hugely disappointing and ultimately damaging to the UK – and it’s the stuff that has been breaking up the Union over the past couple of decades.
I’ve never been a Labour member or much of a voter of New Labour so hardly a big shift for me to turn my back on the party and look at the SNP and the Greens to represent my values and hopes. But I absolutely sympathise with the many grassroots members and party volunteers who feel utterly betrayed by all this. And there’s really no equivalence with how the Labour right were treated before – that was a proper broad church in relation and with a majority of PLP and HQ still in charge. These lot have been hounding the left and combating progressive policies for each of the last 6 years, and even during Miliband’s time. Quite literally, they’re not my idea of representative democratic politics. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 11:37 - Feb 9 with 926 views | Herbivore |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 10:46 - Feb 9 by Darth_Koont |
You’ll be glad to know I wrote a much longer reply that I lost 😀
But the gist is that this is not some People’s Front of Judea vs. Judean People’s Front silliness. And I know the Labour right and any number of people on here utterly rejected that assessment during the Corbyn years.
There are deeper political and ideological differences here. Corbyn was attacked for unashamedly representing an alternative to neoliberalism and imperialism i.e. democratic socialism and even just genuine social democracy.
Now, Starmer is being attacked for not being that alternative, despite pledging he was going to maintain the progressive platform and also pledging he was committed to unity. So no real alternative and seemingly untrustworthy and highly factional too.
On top of this, I see way too much triangulation and leaning into right-wing values and dogwhistles around family and nation. So not just structurally and economically reinforcing the status quo and direction of travel but also socially and culturally. That’s hugely disappointing and ultimately damaging to the UK – and it’s the stuff that has been breaking up the Union over the past couple of decades.
I’ve never been a Labour member or much of a voter of New Labour so hardly a big shift for me to turn my back on the party and look at the SNP and the Greens to represent my values and hopes. But I absolutely sympathise with the many grassroots members and party volunteers who feel utterly betrayed by all this. And there’s really no equivalence with how the Labour right were treated before – that was a proper broad church in relation and with a majority of PLP and HQ still in charge. These lot have been hounding the left and combating progressive policies for each of the last 6 years, and even during Miliband’s time. Quite literally, they’re not my idea of representative democratic politics. |
I'm not a Labour member or regular Labour voter either. I've voted Green far more often than I've voted Labour. I consider myself to be left of Corbyn's Labour to be honest, so I'm not coming at this as someone invested in party politics or as a 'right' Labour supporter.
I think it's incredibly naive to suggest that Corbyn was attacked solely because he represented social democratic ideals. The guy had some fairly hefty baggage and whilst he appealed to a particular demographic, he put a lot of people off as well. You can blame the media for that, sure, but I think that's a bit too simplistic. Corbyn was a pretty flawed leader, he didn't show much leadership on key issues at times and was too often led by his own hubris rather than by what might pragmatically make a difference.
That said, he had some good policies and you've said that you are all about the policy. What he didn't have was the credibility to get those policies over to people and convince them he could deliver. Whether that was about perception or reality, who knows. However, you have been going hard on Starmer for months based on perception and not policy. Throwing around buzzwords like triangulation doesn't really change that fact. And it's widespread amongst those who supported Corbyn to the death, despite him being a total electoral failure in 2019 and handing the most awful of Tory governments an 80 seat majority.
I know you won't agree with this, but as someone with no real skin in the game other than wanting the Tories out, I'm just calling it how I see it. I think the hardcore Corbynites can't let go of feeling betrayed by the Labour 'right' and their response has been to behave in the exact same way towards Starmer in full toys out of the pram fashion. It's ridiculous. And all the while, the Corbynites continue to ignore the elephant in the room that saw them destroyed in 2019: engaging with traditional working class voters in the red wall. They felt ignored by and detached from Corbyn then and the Corbynites fail to see the need to reconnect with them now. I think Starmer does see that, which is why you and others find some of the optics off putting, but given what a shambles Starmer inherited he's got quite the task on his hands just to restore some basic credibility for the party. He won't achieve that by beating on the same drum as Corbyn. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 12:48 - Feb 9 with 895 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 11:37 - Feb 9 by Herbivore |
I'm not a Labour member or regular Labour voter either. I've voted Green far more often than I've voted Labour. I consider myself to be left of Corbyn's Labour to be honest, so I'm not coming at this as someone invested in party politics or as a 'right' Labour supporter.
I think it's incredibly naive to suggest that Corbyn was attacked solely because he represented social democratic ideals. The guy had some fairly hefty baggage and whilst he appealed to a particular demographic, he put a lot of people off as well. You can blame the media for that, sure, but I think that's a bit too simplistic. Corbyn was a pretty flawed leader, he didn't show much leadership on key issues at times and was too often led by his own hubris rather than by what might pragmatically make a difference.
That said, he had some good policies and you've said that you are all about the policy. What he didn't have was the credibility to get those policies over to people and convince them he could deliver. Whether that was about perception or reality, who knows. However, you have been going hard on Starmer for months based on perception and not policy. Throwing around buzzwords like triangulation doesn't really change that fact. And it's widespread amongst those who supported Corbyn to the death, despite him being a total electoral failure in 2019 and handing the most awful of Tory governments an 80 seat majority.
I know you won't agree with this, but as someone with no real skin in the game other than wanting the Tories out, I'm just calling it how I see it. I think the hardcore Corbynites can't let go of feeling betrayed by the Labour 'right' and their response has been to behave in the exact same way towards Starmer in full toys out of the pram fashion. It's ridiculous. And all the while, the Corbynites continue to ignore the elephant in the room that saw them destroyed in 2019: engaging with traditional working class voters in the red wall. They felt ignored by and detached from Corbyn then and the Corbynites fail to see the need to reconnect with them now. I think Starmer does see that, which is why you and others find some of the optics off putting, but given what a shambles Starmer inherited he's got quite the task on his hands just to restore some basic credibility for the party. He won't achieve that by beating on the same drum as Corbyn. |
I’m just calling it as I see it too.
I also see/saw Brexit and the worsening campaign against Corbyn by far too many of his own party and those supposedly of the left and centre-left in the media as being the core reasons that 2017 wasn’t built on in 2019.
Despite that bump upwards in 2017 we’re also looking at a Labour Party that has lost ground for over two decades, has already lost Scotland, was losing the Red Wall anyway and now looks to be distancing itself from the minorities and more vulnerable people. Patently obvious to me that those at the helm over this time don’t know what they’re doing or who and what they’re meant to represent. While always saying they’re the only way forward.
If you see the Labour project as protecting the soft Establishment, protecting against progressive change and, most crucially, protecting the career interests of those who are establishing a niche for themselves in the area where politics, lobbying, media and corporate world intersect then it all makes a lot more sense why they’re so committed to this path.
But I just don’t buy that this posturing path is the way forward for our democracy and doing the best for the citizens of this country. Objectively, opposition needs to show an alternative way forward and one based on the major issues facing the country and real solutions. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 12:51 - Feb 9 with 884 views | Herbivore |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 12:48 - Feb 9 by Darth_Koont |
I’m just calling it as I see it too.
I also see/saw Brexit and the worsening campaign against Corbyn by far too many of his own party and those supposedly of the left and centre-left in the media as being the core reasons that 2017 wasn’t built on in 2019.
Despite that bump upwards in 2017 we’re also looking at a Labour Party that has lost ground for over two decades, has already lost Scotland, was losing the Red Wall anyway and now looks to be distancing itself from the minorities and more vulnerable people. Patently obvious to me that those at the helm over this time don’t know what they’re doing or who and what they’re meant to represent. While always saying they’re the only way forward.
If you see the Labour project as protecting the soft Establishment, protecting against progressive change and, most crucially, protecting the career interests of those who are establishing a niche for themselves in the area where politics, lobbying, media and corporate world intersect then it all makes a lot more sense why they’re so committed to this path.
But I just don’t buy that this posturing path is the way forward for our democracy and doing the best for the citizens of this country. Objectively, opposition needs to show an alternative way forward and one based on the major issues facing the country and real solutions. |
So would it not make sense to see what a Labour manifesto for the UK looks like before going all in on decrying them as part of the problem? [Post edited 9 Feb 2021 13:16]
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 13:04 - Feb 9 with 870 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 12:51 - Feb 9 by Herbivore |
So would it not make sense to see what a Labour manifesto for the UK looks like before going all in on decrying them as part of the problem? [Post edited 9 Feb 2021 13:16]
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Would it make sense to wait another couple of years for a manifesto? Absolutely not.
I’m not asking for a detailed manifesto either. I’m asking for a sense of where Starmer is heading beyond heading right. Family, nation, opportunity? Seriously. That’s a supremely pessimistic vision of our future and what is important, given it’s been the prevailing mantra of the right and centre-right that has brought us here.
I want a sense that he retains any sort of commitment towards much-needed change. Business as usual really isn’t good enough, in the real world or also electorally as I don’t think Labour could be more outflanked if they tried currently. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 13:17 - Feb 9 with 851 views | Herbivore |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 13:04 - Feb 9 by Darth_Koont |
Would it make sense to wait another couple of years for a manifesto? Absolutely not.
I’m not asking for a detailed manifesto either. I’m asking for a sense of where Starmer is heading beyond heading right. Family, nation, opportunity? Seriously. That’s a supremely pessimistic vision of our future and what is important, given it’s been the prevailing mantra of the right and centre-right that has brought us here.
I want a sense that he retains any sort of commitment towards much-needed change. Business as usual really isn’t good enough, in the real world or also electorally as I don’t think Labour could be more outflanked if they tried currently. |
Agree to disagree then I guess. | |
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| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 14:15 - Feb 9 with 825 views | Darth_Koont |
| Starmers in for a bumpy time on 13:17 - Feb 9 by Herbivore |
Agree to disagree then I guess. |
Always! 😀
And I think ultimately we have similar values and want a similar end-result. So no hard feelings here. | |
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