| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? 19:31 - May 7 with 5124 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
Not been on here much (actually been working) so apologies if someone's said it already... but Labour have been destroyed in these local elections... even with all Boris's feck ups the public still trust the Tories over Kier's Labour.
He's done no better, or perhaps worse, than Corbyn would've done.
Maybe it's because Kier's perceived as a bit of a toff like the Tory lot. Or doesn't have any policies. He's been showing up Tory mismanagement for me, but it's obviously not cutting through to the public.
Labour should get Jess Philips in. Someone who would appeal to the north, and everyone, frankly. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:17 - May 7 with 1406 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:13 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I see the Tories increased their majority in your constituency Herbie. God does have a sense of humour. |
You slate Boris but then post this?
I have my suspicions that you're still a Tory. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:19 - May 7 with 1406 views | Herbivore |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:15 - May 7 by The_Flashing_Smile |
"it's one by election and some local council elections" is massively underselling this catastrophic, nationwide, defeat.
I agree with the rest. We are bereft. Lost. |
I mean, Corbyn hung around after losing a GE so I really don't think it's realistic to expect a leader to resign a year in after local council elections and a by election. Turnout in these things is very low so whilst they are an indicator that things are going badly, it's not a resignation issue.
We are totally screwed though. I can't see anything other than a Tory government for a very long time. |  |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:20 - May 7 with 1403 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:15 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
That’s probably right. Although Corbyn’s progressive policies were of course completely in line with the Greens so no need then.
Starmer going back on his pledges to continue that progressive platform changes everything. His anti-progressive Labour is part of the problem – politically, socially, economically and environmentally. |
No this was post Corbyn. Before Christmas when you were posting against Starmer.
I suggested that rather than try to change Labour into the party you want it to be, especially as it never has been other than the 4 years of Corbyn, why don't the left get behind the Greens.
They could certainly make it as strong as the Lib Dems were under Steel, Ashdown and Kennedy. |  |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:26 - May 7 with 1391 views | GlasgowBlue |
Corbyn's local election results were worse than Starmer's in 2017 (2017: Con 38 Lab 27 2021: Con 36 Lab 29) yet went on to deprive T May of her majority just two months later.
Starmer has to be given time once this pandemic is over and some sort of normalcy returns. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:28 - May 7 with 1373 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 20:02 - May 7 by DanTheMan |
Not just labour, just generally an issue with left wing people.
Seem to care more about being the right sort of left wing, and less about getting crap done. |
Is this what prevented the right wing PLP from backing a properly progressive agenda when given the chance? |  |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:29 - May 7 with 1371 views | Herbivore |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:13 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I see the Tories increased their majority in your constituency Herbie. God does have a sense of humour. |
I can't help but think me moving up here has made the locals appreciate the union even more. I should have factored that in. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:33 - May 7 with 1360 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:20 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
No this was post Corbyn. Before Christmas when you were posting against Starmer.
I suggested that rather than try to change Labour into the party you want it to be, especially as it never has been other than the 4 years of Corbyn, why don't the left get behind the Greens.
They could certainly make it as strong as the Lib Dems were under Steel, Ashdown and Kennedy. |
Could you throw in P.R too? | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:33 - May 7 with 1372 views | Guthrum |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:02 - May 7 by Herbivore |
Not sure it's a resigning matter, it's one by election and some local council elections. That said, it's a terrible set of results and he and Labour need to have a real think about how they can start turning this around.
I honestly think we're screwed though. The Tories have managed to totally screw the country for over a decade, they created the clusterf**k of Brexit that has damaged us irreparably in so many ways, their current leader can't move his lips without lying and will sacrifice literally anything for his own gain, and yet the Tories go from strength to strength.
How do you even begin to tackle winning over a public that is in the thrall of this corrupt bunch of charlatans? They've somehow created a sh!t storm and walked out of it with their white linen suit still looking pristine. They're untouchable. I think anyone wanting progressive politics needs to look to get out of the UK, or England at the very least. |
The Labour Party needs to find a USP. The original one - of looking out for downtrodden industrial and mining workers - simply does not apply to enough people in the UK any more.
The Conservatives appeal to rural people, the comfortably-off (which is a lot of people, nowadays), the well-off, those who don't like paying tax (which is also a large number of people) and the mildly libertarian. Evidently enough to form a critical mass.
Labour really only has urban intelligentsia (especially now it's ditched the Old Trots again and the Scots have a different anti-Tory banner to rally behind). Many of whom are distracted by things like Green issues. Talking about being "progressive" does not have the visceral appeal of money in your pocket, or "getting your country back". For The Many, Not The Few has little traction in a populace force-fed for decades on individualism over society.
So Labour have to find something simple, blunt and appealing to offer the country if they want to stand any chance of gaining the electoral upper hand. The tricky bit is - what? |  |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:34 - May 7 with 1360 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:19 - May 7 by Herbivore |
I mean, Corbyn hung around after losing a GE so I really don't think it's realistic to expect a leader to resign a year in after local council elections and a by election. Turnout in these things is very low so whilst they are an indicator that things are going badly, it's not a resignation issue.
We are totally screwed though. I can't see anything other than a Tory government for a very long time. |
You'd hope to see a slight upturn at the very least. Labour have been trounced. A Labour stronghold for 50-odd years turns to a 7,000 Conservative majority?!? Political commentators are saying it might've been better if Corbyn had stayed in charge.
It's like Hurst - Lambert. Maybe it's not the world, maybe each of us on here is cursed. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:37 - May 7 with 1347 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:33 - May 7 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Could you throw in P.R too? |
Absolutely. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:38 - May 7 with 1345 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:29 - May 7 by Herbivore |
I can't help but think me moving up here has made the locals appreciate the union even more. I should have factored that in. |
Come home Agent Herbivore. The mission is complete. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:40 - May 7 with 1346 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:26 - May 7 by GlasgowBlue |
Corbyn's local election results were worse than Starmer's in 2017 (2017: Con 38 Lab 27 2021: Con 36 Lab 29) yet went on to deprive T May of her majority just two months later.
Starmer has to be given time once this pandemic is over and some sort of normalcy returns. |
But Starmer* is untrustworthy and doesn’t stand for anything.
And he’s been comprehensively rejected after being given a free ride for the past year or more. I’m sure he’ll continue (for now) but the heat is being turned up – through all fault of his own.
He’s shown nothing in strength so let’s see what happens in adversity. With the feckless, vacuous loons around him, it looks like a car crash that will quickly turn into a pile-up.
*I refer to Starmer as he and him but I’m aware that there’s a team of advisors and cheerleaders too. He might even be a decent person but I’m talking about the political entity. |  |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:41 - May 7 with 1345 views | Herbivore |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:34 - May 7 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You'd hope to see a slight upturn at the very least. Labour have been trounced. A Labour stronghold for 50-odd years turns to a 7,000 Conservative majority?!? Political commentators are saying it might've been better if Corbyn had stayed in charge.
It's like Hurst - Lambert. Maybe it's not the world, maybe each of us on here is cursed. |
It's a bad set of results. The Tories hoovered up the Brexit Party votes and they would have won the seat in 2019 if the Brexit Party hadn't stood, so a defeat was always likely, but the extent of it is a very bad look.
Hopefully the results act as a wake up call, although as Guthers says it's hard to see what USP Labour can offer that will keep their existing urban, liberal base happy whilst winning back the disaffected voters in the red wall. The Tories have a very solid core base that will seemingly always vote for them regardless, Labour no longer has that. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:42 - May 7 with 1344 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:34 - May 7 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You'd hope to see a slight upturn at the very least. Labour have been trounced. A Labour stronghold for 50-odd years turns to a 7,000 Conservative majority?!? Political commentators are saying it might've been better if Corbyn had stayed in charge.
It's like Hurst - Lambert. Maybe it's not the world, maybe each of us on here is cursed. |
I always said that Starmer will be a Kinnock type figure. He won't win an election but he'll de toxify the Labour brand after Corbyn, Just as Kinnock id when he expelled Millitant, and lay the groundwork for a more charismatic leader to come in when the electorate get fed up with the Tories. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:51 - May 7 with 1334 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:34 - May 7 by The_Flashing_Smile |
You'd hope to see a slight upturn at the very least. Labour have been trounced. A Labour stronghold for 50-odd years turns to a 7,000 Conservative majority?!? Political commentators are saying it might've been better if Corbyn had stayed in charge.
It's like Hurst - Lambert. Maybe it's not the world, maybe each of us on here is cursed. |
By any sober analysis, Corbyn was Mick in giving Labour a flicker of life after two decades of steady decline.
Be careful what you wish for – it’s as if we’ve now got Hurst for a year or two with everyone saying how needed he is, while we slip into League Two and beyond.
It’s politics as a fever dream. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:54 - May 7 with 1330 views | Herbivore |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:51 - May 7 by Darth_Koont |
By any sober analysis, Corbyn was Mick in giving Labour a flicker of life after two decades of steady decline.
Be careful what you wish for – it’s as if we’ve now got Hurst for a year or two with everyone saying how needed he is, while we slip into League Two and beyond.
It’s politics as a fever dream. |
I love how you've managed to airbrush the 2019 GE from any sober analysis of Corbyn. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 00:08 - May 8 with 1270 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 21:54 - May 7 by Herbivore |
I love how you've managed to airbrush the 2019 GE from any sober analysis of Corbyn. |
No airbrush needed.
Brexit was the big problem – something Starmer is having to own now.
I'll be fascinated to see how this is spun next week. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 00:52 - May 8 with 1253 views | DinDjarin |
Said it when Kier came in that he was not the answer but got shot down.
But he is a lawyer they said and speaks well. Shows how out of kilter this board is with the wider world. |  | | |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 00:58 - May 8 with 1248 views | SpruceMoose |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 20:33 - May 7 by J2BLUE |
This point never goes down very well on here but for everyone like you who wants a more progressive society I believe there's someone who doesn't. That might sound odd and i'm not suggesting they are bigots. I just think this 'progress' goes faster and faster by the year and some people want to push back. |
I think you're pretty much right. Except it is probably closer to two against for every one for progressive policies.
How is progress going faster year after year when the progressive left has never had a sniff of power though?
What is progressing faster every year is in fact populism. [Post edited 8 May 2021 0:59]
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"Imagine being a heterosexual white male in Britain at this moment. How bad is that. Everything you say is racist, everything you say is homophobic. The Woke community have really f****d this country." | | Poll: | Selectamod |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:19 - May 8 with 1197 views | Guthrum |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 00:52 - May 8 by DinDjarin |
Said it when Kier came in that he was not the answer but got shot down.
But he is a lawyer they said and speaks well. Shows how out of kilter this board is with the wider world. |
However, I think it's far too simplistic to suggest that Starmer and his manner are the only problem. That another candidate (and whom was available?) would have done better with the same material.
As I said below, why would you vote Labour in England? "They're not the Tories" isn't a good enough answer. In local elections, the other alternatives (LibDem, Green, independents) are much stronger than in General Elections, so that vote is as likely to go to them. People who consider themselves "progressive" are considerably a minority and their allegiances may lie elsewhere, in any case. Those who perceive themselves (an important distinction) as poor or deprived are more likely to be disillusioned with the whole system which has brought them little benefit, whoever is in charge.
It needs more a wholesale change of approach. Mild socialism under Corbyn wasn't the answer, not enough appeal. I'm not sure a direct return to Blairism would be, either (that worked when the Conservatives were weak and a shambles). Perhaps turn themselves into a more cohesive version of the Green Party, going after climate change and the young vote? A federalist party, looking for a looser Union and regional devolution?
But mainly they can't hope things will magically go back to being able to win majorities based on a sold wedge of northern and Scottish seats. That particular spell is broken and the ingredients are no longer available. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:39 - May 8 with 1181 views | itfcjoe |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:19 - May 8 by Guthrum |
However, I think it's far too simplistic to suggest that Starmer and his manner are the only problem. That another candidate (and whom was available?) would have done better with the same material.
As I said below, why would you vote Labour in England? "They're not the Tories" isn't a good enough answer. In local elections, the other alternatives (LibDem, Green, independents) are much stronger than in General Elections, so that vote is as likely to go to them. People who consider themselves "progressive" are considerably a minority and their allegiances may lie elsewhere, in any case. Those who perceive themselves (an important distinction) as poor or deprived are more likely to be disillusioned with the whole system which has brought them little benefit, whoever is in charge.
It needs more a wholesale change of approach. Mild socialism under Corbyn wasn't the answer, not enough appeal. I'm not sure a direct return to Blairism would be, either (that worked when the Conservatives were weak and a shambles). Perhaps turn themselves into a more cohesive version of the Green Party, going after climate change and the young vote? A federalist party, looking for a looser Union and regional devolution?
But mainly they can't hope things will magically go back to being able to win majorities based on a sold wedge of northern and Scottish seats. That particular spell is broken and the ingredients are no longer available. |
There is a big problem with how constituencies are drawn and the fact Labour appeal to two main categories - ie those with higher education qualifications and younger people.
Those people leave towns and move to cities where there is more graduate jobs, and that means that there is big concentration of those in certain areas but it means more constituencies in FPTP are having majorities of those who currently vote Conservative.
It’s an incredibly tough circle to square, but think Labour needs to look at what Biden did in the US |  |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:50 - May 8 with 1171 views | Guthrum |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:39 - May 8 by itfcjoe |
There is a big problem with how constituencies are drawn and the fact Labour appeal to two main categories - ie those with higher education qualifications and younger people.
Those people leave towns and move to cities where there is more graduate jobs, and that means that there is big concentration of those in certain areas but it means more constituencies in FPTP are having majorities of those who currently vote Conservative.
It’s an incredibly tough circle to square, but think Labour needs to look at what Biden did in the US |
Constituencies are theoretically supposed to be of equal population size. However, Labour have been as guilty as the Conservatives of resisting Commission-recommended reforms, where they thought it might disadvantage themselves.
Not to mention electoral reform, which might have helped them now. | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:54 - May 8 with 1171 views | Darth_Koont |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 08:39 - May 8 by itfcjoe |
There is a big problem with how constituencies are drawn and the fact Labour appeal to two main categories - ie those with higher education qualifications and younger people.
Those people leave towns and move to cities where there is more graduate jobs, and that means that there is big concentration of those in certain areas but it means more constituencies in FPTP are having majorities of those who currently vote Conservative.
It’s an incredibly tough circle to square, but think Labour needs to look at what Biden did in the US |
“Labour needs to look at what Biden did in the US”
Biden created a broader coalition and embraced the left. And wasn’t afraid to talk about progressive, transformative policies.
So basically if Starmer had stuck to his leadership pledges and hadn’t almost immediately gone back on them ... | |
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| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 09:14 - May 8 with 1148 views | Herbivore |
| Well I guess Kier Starmer should resign? on 00:08 - May 8 by Darth_Koont |
No airbrush needed.
Brexit was the big problem – something Starmer is having to own now.
I'll be fascinated to see how this is spun next week. |
Definitely not a cult. | |
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