| Looks like Kabul is about to fall 12:18 - Aug 15 with 3031 views | pointofblue |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-asia-58219963
What an utter and complete mess the West has made of this - and it feels like the deaths of the soldiers in the "War in Terror" have all be in vain.
Those poor people left in Afghanistan.  |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:26 - Aug 15 with 2279 views | ZXBlue |
Impossible situation.
But yes, it seems appalling that after all these years and deaths we step out and leave it all just how it was beforehand. | | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:26 - Aug 15 with 2275 views | gtsb1966 |
and not a word from Dominic Raab. Can't think why. |  | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:29 - Aug 15 with 2256 views | pointofblue |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:26 - Aug 15 by ZXBlue |
Impossible situation.
But yes, it seems appalling that after all these years and deaths we step out and leave it all just how it was beforehand. |
As Afghanistan's armed forces were clealy not in a state to fight back surely the solution was to retain a presence in the country? The last 20 years have basically been for nothing. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:30 - Aug 15 with 2251 views | gtsb1966 |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:26 - Aug 15 by ZXBlue |
Impossible situation.
But yes, it seems appalling that after all these years and deaths we step out and leave it all just how it was beforehand. |
I knew someone who was in the SAS and killed in Afghanistan. I can't imagine what his family must be feeling right now. | | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:32 - Aug 15 with 2240 views | Bent_double |
Can't blames the West completely - they've had 20 years of financial and military assistance, yet failed to put a decent military in place to continue the fight against the Taliban. |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:34 - Aug 15 with 2227 views | BloomBlue |
It's a no win situation but Biden has really cocked up this one. The world will be an even more dangerous place now, plus those poor Afghans especially women they will be treated terribly. |  | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:36 - Aug 15 with 2220 views | pointofblue |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:32 - Aug 15 by Bent_double |
Can't blames the West completely - they've had 20 years of financial and military assistance, yet failed to put a decent military in place to continue the fight against the Taliban. |
It's similar to Iraq though - it's not just financial and military assistance they need but also education. When a country has been run in a manner for such a long time, in this case the dominance of tribal leaders with the Taliban pulling the strings, then trying to impose another kind of politics takes a long time. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 13:22 - Aug 15 with 2099 views | Manchesterblue |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:26 - Aug 15 by gtsb1966 |
and not a word from Dominic Raab. Can't think why. |
All wasted thanks to Blair. |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 13:34 - Aug 15 with 2059 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:29 - Aug 15 by pointofblue |
As Afghanistan's armed forces were clealy not in a state to fight back surely the solution was to retain a presence in the country? The last 20 years have basically been for nothing. |
That certainly seems to be the view of those people who know the country well. Our continuing relatively low key presence was vital for stability and for giving the people better opportunities. Sure it was far from perfect but now things will regress back to the dark ages for many.
And to rub things in we’re absolving ourselves of any responsibility by looking to block any asylum claims and pulling prestigious scholarships for Afghan students. I’m not sure what’s worse - our incompetence or spite. |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 13:38 - Aug 15 with 2030 views | BloomBlue |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 12:36 - Aug 15 by pointofblue |
It's similar to Iraq though - it's not just financial and military assistance they need but also education. When a country has been run in a manner for such a long time, in this case the dominance of tribal leaders with the Taliban pulling the strings, then trying to impose another kind of politics takes a long time. |
I had a good friend who died a few years ago who spent 3 years in Afghanistan in the early 50s and he always said when the US first went in, to change them as people you would have to stay there 50+ years and if you didnt they would go back as it's been their way of life for 1000s of years | | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 13:52 - Aug 15 with 1975 views | The_Major |
So presumably, if any of those poor sods we're leaving in the mire in Afghanistan decide to leave and make their way to us for a better life, no doubt they'll be welcomed with open arms?
There's much more chance of a Drissa Diallo retrospective DVD being on sale in Planet Blue. |  | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 13:53 - Aug 15 with 1971 views | Guthrum |
Not "about to", effectively already has. The Kabul government has collapsed and is negotiating surrender. The armed forces have mostly stopped fighting. The city is surrounded with some reports of Taliban forces having arrived in the centre.
As I said before, this has as much to do with endemic local corruption as Western mismanagement. Much of the money poured in for reconstruction went straight into the pockets of the self-appointed Afghan leaders. The military were neglected, underfunded, poorly trained and led, then left in the lurch when it came to the crunch. Unsurprising they have been unable to stand up to highly motivated and battle-hardened tribal militias |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:03 - Aug 15 with 1940 views | ElephantintheRoom |
You dont think it's a sign that westerners interfering in the country were not particularly welcome? I doubt the men with beards and rocket launchers could have taken over the entire country within a f ew weeks unless there was considerable local support - unless John Rambos is still there lending his assistance. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:17 - Aug 15 with 1898 views | ZXBlue |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:03 - Aug 15 by ElephantintheRoom |
You dont think it's a sign that westerners interfering in the country were not particularly welcome? I doubt the men with beards and rocket launchers could have taken over the entire country within a f ew weeks unless there was considerable local support - unless John Rambos is still there lending his assistance. |
That seems like a very simplistic understanding of the issues.
The Taliban are not a majority in the country, so far as i am aware. They are, however, aggresively fundamentalist in their views and practices, and have no issue with imposing them on everyone else through violence. | | | |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:23 - Aug 15 with 1885 views | Guthrum |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:03 - Aug 15 by ElephantintheRoom |
You dont think it's a sign that westerners interfering in the country were not particularly welcome? I doubt the men with beards and rocket launchers could have taken over the entire country within a f ew weeks unless there was considerable local support - unless John Rambos is still there lending his assistance. |
On the other hand, 20 years of Islamist militant organisations having a safe haven and base from which to mount attacks on the West was not a viable situation, either.
More the case that there was nothing really to stop the Taliban once the West had withdrawn. The central government inspired no loyalty in much of the populace - hardly a new or infrequent occurrence in Afghan history.
Wouldn't surprise me if the old Northern Alliance warlords restart their insurgency over the next few months. They being of different regional and, in some cases, ethnic factions to the Taliban support base. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:46 - Aug 15 with 1814 views | Guthrum |
Aaand now the Afghan President has fled the country. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:04 - Aug 15 with 1759 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:46 - Aug 15 by Guthrum |
Aaand now the Afghan President has fled the country. |
Great. As in it all makes you want to weep.
Biden had been doing so well till this. Seems like his 'Blair' decision. |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:09 - Aug 15 with 1739 views | Chrisd |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 14:46 - Aug 15 by Guthrum |
Aaand now the Afghan President has fled the country. |
Surely, a better infrastructure would’ve helped? If this has been 20 years in the making and then rolled over in the matter of days, doesn’t really suggest Afghanistan was fully behind this regime. Naturally, there will be fingers pointed at the west, but the Afghan army and governance has shown literally no resolve and simply disappeared. Were they expecting the west to protect them indefinitely? It just makes the last 20 years and the lives lost completely unnecessary. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:12 - Aug 15 with 1722 views | Darth_Koont |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:04 - Aug 15 by Ryorry |
Great. As in it all makes you want to weep.
Biden had been doing so well till this. Seems like his 'Blair' decision. |
The similarity with Iraq was there was no exit strategy. And no objective beyond making a statement and/or making money.
That was Blair’s own choice. Whereas Biden is dealing with the results of those decisions and is damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t given the overall aimlessness of the presence there.
Could the withdrawal have been handled differently and better? Probably. But they’d be doing nothing to fill the power vacuum without a bigger presence and a longer-term approach. |  |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:13 - Aug 15 with 1719 views | Guthrum |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:04 - Aug 15 by Ryorry |
Great. As in it all makes you want to weep.
Biden had been doing so well till this. Seems like his 'Blair' decision. |
Trump had been planning to pull out even faster and sooner.
Problem is, the alternative is to just be writing an unending series of blank cheques, plus all the time losing lives. Post Covid, that's not quite as affordable as it used to be, also occupying forces potentially needed to contain China (including the defence of Taiwan).
I think they hoped the Afghan government might make at least a slightly better attempt to defend themselves. The sheer speed of collapse seems to have caught everybody out (even the Taliban are surprised). Once you've made the decision to leave, it becomes harder to make a u-turn. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:18 - Aug 15 with 1680 views | Guthrum |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:09 - Aug 15 by Chrisd |
Surely, a better infrastructure would’ve helped? If this has been 20 years in the making and then rolled over in the matter of days, doesn’t really suggest Afghanistan was fully behind this regime. Naturally, there will be fingers pointed at the west, but the Afghan army and governance has shown literally no resolve and simply disappeared. Were they expecting the west to protect them indefinitely? It just makes the last 20 years and the lives lost completely unnecessary. |
The West has been trying to build infrastructure. However, much of the money has disappeared into the pockets of corrupt officials and the regime has basically relied on being propped up by the West forever.
All the civil governance and human rights stuff would only last as long as we were there to protect and fund it.
That's not to say the Afghans themselves didn't want change - at least in the more cosmopolitan urban areas (the tribal regions are very conservative), but they weren't blessed with good government. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:20 - Aug 15 with 1672 views | Guthrum |
Kabul has fallen. Government collapsed or fled, police and army gone home, Taliban forces entering the city 'to preserve law and order'. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:30 - Aug 15 with 1644 views | Ryorry |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:20 - Aug 15 by Guthrum |
Kabul has fallen. Government collapsed or fled, police and army gone home, Taliban forces entering the city 'to preserve law and order'. |
God help that poor general population. Dreadful irony of that phrase.
Thanks for your previous points and informative context - DK's too. | |
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| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:39 - Aug 15 with 1621 views | Guthrum |
| Looks like Kabul is about to fall on 15:30 - Aug 15 by Ryorry |
God help that poor general population. Dreadful irony of that phrase.
Thanks for your previous points and informative context - DK's too. |
Yes, that is the real tragedy, of the ordinary people caught up in this.
I can see the civil war of the late 1990s starting back up again. | |
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