| Rory Stewart spot on again 06:53 - Sep 1 with 6716 views | bluelagos |
And as an aside - this sums up perfectly for me an issue with so many people:- Twtdrs, social media, lining up a couple of months ago to be outraged and disgusted over a couple of bell ends taking an unwanted selfie with Chris Whitty...yet barely a wimper from the same posters / mob over an unfolding humanitarian crisis evolving right in front of us all.
I despair how so many people get themselves invested in irrelevant nonsense as opposed to things that actually matter... [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 6:54]
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 15:14 - Sep 1 with 2242 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:31 - Sep 1 by Kievthegreat |
Have you taken into account the fact Boris Johnson was elected by a minority of voters |
Under the corrupt First Past the Post system which disincentivises voting in a huge number of constituencies because the result is already obvious/the candidate an individual prefers can't win. |  | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:20 - Sep 1 with 2205 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:24 - Sep 1 by bluelagos |
I think the fact that the original intervention was military, doesn't mean the humanitarian aspect was always doomed. In Sierra Leone and Liberia to name but two, military intervention was successfully followed by development in those countries. The aid was largely channeled through NGOs and the peace keeping was always going to be by men with big guns.
Is why I am not a pacifist. Sometimes you need good men with guns to sort out bad men with guns. The alternative (civil war) happened in Liberia for years - 1/12 of the population killed and 3/4 displaced from their homes. Why would Afghanistan be any different? And do the maths on their population if something similar happens...
Sad truth is that wars leave everyone fcked up, especially those at the bottom of the foodchain. Is why those commenting (not you) that the ordinary Afghans should stand up to the Taliban are so utterly clueless in their comments, the idea that a mother with 3 kids is going to take on an armed insurgent...
Back on point - development comes in many shapes and sizes. NGOs clearly play a massive part, but so does a functioning state. A state needs to provide security, health, education etc and NGOs can only ever play a part in that. They can't function effectively in a failed state, is why supporting govt.s is seen as key part of development.
Where I suspect we have much common ground Darth, is thinking the idea that you can just replicate and impose a Western 'model' of a state on another country - that is always going to be problematic. That aspect in Afghanistan has patently failed (with respect to security and governance) - no argument from me there.
What I am seeing is a military intervention, followed by nearly 20 years of state building / humanitarian aid / NGO led development - and then bang - we just abandon the lot and fck off home and undo all the undoubted good work that was going on.
And the consequences could be horrific. I simply don't accept it was always going to be thus, the Afghans needed far better support, more time, better leadership - not being sold out and left to it, as is being done now. |
Yeah, I think we agree overall. If you intervene militarily for humanitarian reasons and to help establish peace then there’s no reason for the population to think you are there to take sides or to occupy. Patently, in Afghanistan, the latter was the perception and indeed the objective – and it’s there the chances to be a positive agent of change and a support to the civilian population begin to dwindle.
The irony is we’d just extricated ourselves from Northern Ireland, which was another “peacekeeping” mission that turned into a decades-long occupation and struggle because we took sides and tried to impose “our” values and promote “our” interests.
I just want the penny to drop domestically that our own interests can’t take precedence if we’re meant to be operating on humanitarian grounds. That’s much more selfless and about doing the right thing for the people there. |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:35 - Sep 1 with 2188 views | Eireannach_gorm |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 12:46 - Sep 1 by bluelagos |
"And it is true that a large number of the British population cared more about cats and dogs in Afghanistan than they ever have, or will, about Afghani children, women or men. "
We have had a twitter storm trying to help Pen Farthing get 200 cats and dogs out of Kabul. Great that he was successful in getting them out but what about his Afghan staff ffs? Real people now at huge risk to their personal safety and where is the noise? Something is properly messed up imho.
I also read today we have thus far only managed to get half of the female Afghan MPs out, leaving the rest to endure the dangers of a border run to escape a country where their lives are in huge danger. [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 13:41]
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At least Pen was given some assistance ( and the animals were in the hold where no passengers are carried ).
This guy is definitely on his own.
https://www.independent.ie/news/ex-soldier-leads-400-afghans-in-daring-escape-bi |  | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:45 - Sep 1 with 2181 views | noggin |
Remember when Corbyn got dogs abuse for talking with terrorists?
Guess what we're gonna have to do to help those still stuck in Afghanistan? |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:48 - Sep 1 with 2176 views | Timefliesbyintheblue |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 15:14 - Sep 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
Under the corrupt First Past the Post system which disincentivises voting in a huge number of constituencies because the result is already obvious/the candidate an individual prefers can't win. |
It is amazing that throughout my lifetime, whichever parties lose a general election they blame it on the voting system, rather than their own inept policies or voter disenchantment with their individual candidates or potential cabinet.
It might not be a system that is perfect (or even one that I would prefer), but to call it corrupt is in my opinion a step too far.
Mr Stewart I thought was a decent politician, who should have stayed and fought from within, but having now been a member of both Labour and Conservative parties and not finding either to his liking he has rather 'cooked his own goose' I guess. | | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 17:05 - Sep 1 with 2147 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:48 - Sep 1 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
It is amazing that throughout my lifetime, whichever parties lose a general election they blame it on the voting system, rather than their own inept policies or voter disenchantment with their individual candidates or potential cabinet.
It might not be a system that is perfect (or even one that I would prefer), but to call it corrupt is in my opinion a step too far.
Mr Stewart I thought was a decent politician, who should have stayed and fought from within, but having now been a member of both Labour and Conservative parties and not finding either to his liking he has rather 'cooked his own goose' I guess. |
It’s an awful system. And it’s unfitting to have a supposedly modern and representative democracy that effectively ignores a majority of votes cast.
That inherent flaw that can then be gamed by parties and the media strikes me as corrupt as it is used to keep a minority establishment in power. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 17:16 - Sep 1 with 2122 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:20 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
Yeah, I think we agree overall. If you intervene militarily for humanitarian reasons and to help establish peace then there’s no reason for the population to think you are there to take sides or to occupy. Patently, in Afghanistan, the latter was the perception and indeed the objective – and it’s there the chances to be a positive agent of change and a support to the civilian population begin to dwindle.
The irony is we’d just extricated ourselves from Northern Ireland, which was another “peacekeeping” mission that turned into a decades-long occupation and struggle because we took sides and tried to impose “our” values and promote “our” interests.
I just want the penny to drop domestically that our own interests can’t take precedence if we’re meant to be operating on humanitarian grounds. That’s much more selfless and about doing the right thing for the people there. |
On a related note, this is worth a watch. Good to hear from someone who has been on the ground as a soldier yet taken the time to go back and understand the civilian perspective. All in all, that makes him scathing about why we and our allies went to Afghanistan and what we did when we were there. It also throws our hypocritical, strategic support for “humanitarian” Israel and Saudi Arabia into perspective.
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 17:20 - Sep 1 with 2113 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:45 - Sep 1 by noggin |
Remember when Corbyn got dogs abuse for talking with terrorists?
Guess what we're gonna have to do to help those still stuck in Afghanistan? |
Hypocritical disingenuous snakes gonna snake.
Soon enough, the Taliban will be back to being the moderate freedom fighters bravely struggling against an evil ideology who Maggie loved so much. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 17:31 - Sep 1 with 2088 views | noggin |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 17:16 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
On a related note, this is worth a watch. Good to hear from someone who has been on the ground as a soldier yet taken the time to go back and understand the civilian perspective. All in all, that makes him scathing about why we and our allies went to Afghanistan and what we did when we were there. It also throws our hypocritical, strategic support for “humanitarian” Israel and Saudi Arabia into perspective.
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Excellent speech, thanks for posting. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:03 - Sep 1 with 2017 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:48 - Sep 1 by Timefliesbyintheblue |
It is amazing that throughout my lifetime, whichever parties lose a general election they blame it on the voting system, rather than their own inept policies or voter disenchantment with their individual candidates or potential cabinet.
It might not be a system that is perfect (or even one that I would prefer), but to call it corrupt is in my opinion a step too far.
Mr Stewart I thought was a decent politician, who should have stayed and fought from within, but having now been a member of both Labour and Conservative parties and not finding either to his liking he has rather 'cooked his own goose' I guess. |
It is corrupt because it encourages voter apathy in a huge number of constituencies, allows party leaders to carry out witch hunts (Boris on Stewart, Corbyn refusing to give Shadow Cabinet posts to gifted and experienced politicians because they were wrong Labour) and leads to huge majorities for parties with about 43% of the vote (Blair and Johnson).
The system for the Scottish Parliament is significantly better. | | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:17 - Sep 1 with 1987 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:45 - Sep 1 by noggin |
Remember when Corbyn got dogs abuse for talking with terrorists?
Guess what we're gonna have to do to help those still stuck in Afghanistan? |
If an obscure back bench Tory MP attends a pro Taliban rally and stands for a two minutes slice in honour of members of the Taliban who blew up British soldiers, and then went on to give his unconditional support for the Taliban, then you may have a point.
What will actually happen is that just like John Major and Tony Blair, the British government will open back door channels and negotiate some sort of peace deal. |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:35 - Sep 1 with 1980 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:17 - Sep 1 by GlasgowBlue |
If an obscure back bench Tory MP attends a pro Taliban rally and stands for a two minutes slice in honour of members of the Taliban who blew up British soldiers, and then went on to give his unconditional support for the Taliban, then you may have a point.
What will actually happen is that just like John Major and Tony Blair, the British government will open back door channels and negotiate some sort of peace deal. |
Specious chuff. If the underlying cause has merit you can support that cause.
Who said anything about supporting every method? Do you support bombing children because you’ve supported some of the UK’s campaigns? | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:52 - Sep 1 with 1956 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:17 - Sep 1 by GlasgowBlue |
If an obscure back bench Tory MP attends a pro Taliban rally and stands for a two minutes slice in honour of members of the Taliban who blew up British soldiers, and then went on to give his unconditional support for the Taliban, then you may have a point.
What will actually happen is that just like John Major and Tony Blair, the British government will open back door channels and negotiate some sort of peace deal. |
And how do you know for certain that Jeremy Corbyn wasn't one of the back door channels between Westminster and Sinn Fein? [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 20:54]
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 21:00 - Sep 1 with 1943 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 09:36 - Sep 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I haven't posted much about Afghanistan because I find it unbearably sad, and I don't know what the answers are anyway.
The first mistake was Blair's in going in with gung-ho Dubya in the first place. After Kosovo, sadly, Blair seems to have seen himself as some sort of Messiah who could solve the world's problems with a few Tornado air strikes followed up by peace keeping boots on the ground.
Trump's vanity in thinking that he was the only person who could do a deal with the Taliban, and Biden's failure to work up a sensible plan for such a withdrawal, have created another humanitarian crisis which shames them, and us as their junior partners for the whole sorry episode.
Rory Stewart is right about many things. I hope that sensible Tory voters can reflect on the fact that he was sacked by text as an MP, and realise that the current mob of bluffers and bull-shtters are a very long way from the principles of integrity in public office which were upheld by Thatcher and Major.
And it is true that a large number of the British population cared more about cats and dogs in Afghanistan than they ever have, or will, about Afghani children, women or men.
It's all unbearably sad. |
When I say it is all unbearably sad, I mean families going through things like this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58410574 | | | |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 21:45 - Sep 1 with 1895 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 20:52 - Sep 1 by ArnoldMoorhen |
And how do you know for certain that Jeremy Corbyn wasn't one of the back door channels between Westminster and Sinn Fein? [Post edited 1 Sep 2021 20:54]
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During the peace process Mo Mowlam publicly admonished Corbyn for his behaviour during the talks, Seamus Mallon, an Irish republican and one of the architects of the peace process said “I never heard anyone mention Corbyn at all. He very clearly took the side of the IRA and that was incompatible, in my opinion, with working for peace.”, Sean O’Callaghan, an ex-IRA terrorist, said Corbyn “played no part ever, at any time, in promoting peace in Northern Ireland”, and any suggestion otherwise is “a cowardly, self-serving lie”., Lord Maginnis said 'Corbyn had no participation in it that I was aware of' and the Guardian at the time denounced his “romantic support for Irish Republicans” and went in to say unequivocally: “Mr Corbyn's actions do not advance the cause of peace in Northern Ireland and are not seriously intended to do so”.
I’ll take the words of those involved in the peace process. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 21:55 - Sep 1 with 1897 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 16:45 - Sep 1 by noggin |
Remember when Corbyn got dogs abuse for talking with terrorists?
Guess what we're gonna have to do to help those still stuck in Afghanistan? |
I think you will find your nemesis Maggie was talking with The IRA back in the 70's but back then there was an order of code and it was not felt in the public interest to know about the ins and outs of everything.
I might add, if I might be so bold. There is a massive difference between negotiating with your enemy and having hugs and cuddles with them.
I mean, come on Noggs, don't be a silly bollox. |  |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:00 - Sep 1 with 1887 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 21:55 - Sep 1 by Lord_Lucan |
I think you will find your nemesis Maggie was talking with The IRA back in the 70's but back then there was an order of code and it was not felt in the public interest to know about the ins and outs of everything.
I might add, if I might be so bold. There is a massive difference between negotiating with your enemy and having hugs and cuddles with them.
I mean, come on Noggs, don't be a silly bollox. |
That’s convenient. Double standards everywhere.
Almost like you’re making it up as you go along. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:06 - Sep 1 with 1871 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 21:45 - Sep 1 by GlasgowBlue |
During the peace process Mo Mowlam publicly admonished Corbyn for his behaviour during the talks, Seamus Mallon, an Irish republican and one of the architects of the peace process said “I never heard anyone mention Corbyn at all. He very clearly took the side of the IRA and that was incompatible, in my opinion, with working for peace.”, Sean O’Callaghan, an ex-IRA terrorist, said Corbyn “played no part ever, at any time, in promoting peace in Northern Ireland”, and any suggestion otherwise is “a cowardly, self-serving lie”., Lord Maginnis said 'Corbyn had no participation in it that I was aware of' and the Guardian at the time denounced his “romantic support for Irish Republicans” and went in to say unequivocally: “Mr Corbyn's actions do not advance the cause of peace in Northern Ireland and are not seriously intended to do so”.
I’ll take the words of those involved in the peace process. |
Corbin saw the route to peace as talks rather than military victory. I know why you hate him, Glassers. Because he’s invariably on the right side of history and you aren’t. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:17 - Sep 1 with 1846 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:00 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
That’s convenient. Double standards everywhere.
Almost like you’re making it up as you go along. |
Not sure what you are on about Koonty, It's the first post I have done on this subject and thread.
It is well known that Thatcher had dialogue with IRA, so did Major. I mean, FFS, do you not think that enemies don't have a chain of communication and command? They all do for crying out loud! -
To be honest Darth, I think you have come across as overly judgemental and aggressive here. Also, you are mentioning double standards and making things up, I really don't know what you are referring to. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:29 - Sep 1 with 1829 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:17 - Sep 1 by Lord_Lucan |
Not sure what you are on about Koonty, It's the first post I have done on this subject and thread.
It is well known that Thatcher had dialogue with IRA, so did Major. I mean, FFS, do you not think that enemies don't have a chain of communication and command? They all do for crying out loud! -
To be honest Darth, I think you have come across as overly judgemental and aggressive here. Also, you are mentioning double standards and making things up, I really don't know what you are referring to. |
Slight over-analysis of “along” there, silly bollox.
Anyway, your post demonstrates double standards in order to disagree with Noggin. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:39 - Sep 1 with 1811 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:29 - Sep 1 by Darth_Koont |
Slight over-analysis of “along” there, silly bollox.
Anyway, your post demonstrates double standards in order to disagree with Noggin. |
Genuinely still don't really know what you are on about to be honest but hey ho, I just finished working about half an hour ago and I'm dead beat so I'm off.
Hope you can clear things up a bit for when I revisit because I'm confused and slightly taken aback to be honest. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 00:08 - Sep 2 with 1760 views | Darth_Koont |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 22:39 - Sep 1 by Lord_Lucan |
Genuinely still don't really know what you are on about to be honest but hey ho, I just finished working about half an hour ago and I'm dead beat so I'm off.
Hope you can clear things up a bit for when I revisit because I'm confused and slightly taken aback to be honest. |
Nothing to clear up on my part. Looks like you’re saying it’s OK for Thatcher to talk to terrorists but completely different if someone else does.
If you think that’s logically and/or morally correct then I’d like to see your workings. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 06:20 - Sep 2 with 1710 views | noggin |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 21:55 - Sep 1 by Lord_Lucan |
I think you will find your nemesis Maggie was talking with The IRA back in the 70's but back then there was an order of code and it was not felt in the public interest to know about the ins and outs of everything.
I might add, if I might be so bold. There is a massive difference between negotiating with your enemy and having hugs and cuddles with them.
I mean, come on Noggs, don't be a silly bollox. |
Is it acceptable to have 'hugs and cuddles' with the Parachute Regt.? Asking for a friend in Derry. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 07:44 - Sep 2 with 1672 views | Lord_Lucan |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 00:08 - Sep 2 by Darth_Koont |
Nothing to clear up on my part. Looks like you’re saying it’s OK for Thatcher to talk to terrorists but completely different if someone else does.
If you think that’s logically and/or morally correct then I’d like to see your workings. |
No.
Of course you must have dialogue with your enemies.
But - for whatever reason, you have completely ignored what I said.
“ I might add, if I might be so bold. There is a massive difference between negotiating with your enemy and having hugs and cuddles with them”. | |
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| Rory Stewart spot on again on 08:10 - Sep 2 with 1636 views | TractorWood |
| Rory Stewart spot on again on 14:31 - Sep 1 by Kievthegreat |
Have you taken into account the fact Boris Johnson was elected by a minority of voters |
He wasn't though. People elect MPs who mostly belong to parties. Parties mostly have leaders. The leader of the party who gets a clear majority gets asked to form a government by the queen.
We don't elect a PM. We never have done. It's an untrue and an over simplified myth to make Politics more digestible. |  |
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