| Herd immunity from covid 22:03 - Oct 28 with 10431 views | StokieBlue |
A number scientists had been floating the idea that herd immunity from covid might be impossible due to the fact that immunised people still carry a high enough viral load to infect other people.
It seems this has been tentatively confirmed by a new study:
Lancet Paper:
https://els-jbs-prod-cdn.jbs.elsevierhealth.com/pb-assets/Lancet/pdfs/s147330992
Guardian Article:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/oct/28/covid-vaccinated-likely-unjabbed-i
Essentially it would render the government strategy of herd immunity (which they have been attempting regardless of what they say) impossible because the unvaccinated cannot rely on the immunity of the vaccinated to prevent them getting infected as they can with other diseases.
The study also highlighted a few worrying things for the vaccinated:
“What we found, surprisingly, was that already by three months after receipt of the second vaccine dose, the risk of acquiring infection was higher compared to being more recently vaccinated,”
This was also interesting given a discussion on here over the last few days around mask wearing and other respiratory viruses:
"Kao suggested the findings also added weight to calls for the introduction of further measures in the UK to tackle the spread of Covid, adding the move could also mitigate the risks posed by other respiratory infections including flu."
Those eligible for boosters should get them straight away.
SB |  | | |  |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:45 - Oct 29 with 1315 views | StokieBlue |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:38 - Oct 29 by Digger77 |
Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert and Sir John Bell actually.
We don't need vaccines for common cold, do we? I'm not sure what your problem is. Cases are down again, promising news on treatments, the virus will get weaker by spring ... Things are looking up! |
My problem is you. You post things as fact which simply aren't facts. You've said "will" get weaker again.
I know the two scientists involved as I said in my original post and they both said "could". You've attributed that as a definite when it's not. They are also basically the only scientists saying it widely so you're cherry picking again to suit your opinion like you did with masks and natural immunity.
With regards to cases, you can't define a trend over a few days during the school holidays.
As I said, in my opinion, your posting on this issue is a disgrace.
SB | | | |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:49 - Oct 29 with 1296 views | J2BLUE |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:38 - Oct 29 by Digger77 |
Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert and Sir John Bell actually.
We don't need vaccines for common cold, do we? I'm not sure what your problem is. Cases are down again, promising news on treatments, the virus will get weaker by spring ... Things are looking up! |
People don't take issue with these comments because we're fans of the virus. People take issue with these comments because we've heard it all before. Then along came delta.
It would be amazing if this fizzled out into the common cold but counting on that happening is asking for trouble.
If cases are falling why don't we really give covid a kicking while its down and bring back masks and working from home? |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 01:03 - Oct 29 with 1253 views | XYZ |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:49 - Oct 29 by J2BLUE |
People don't take issue with these comments because we're fans of the virus. People take issue with these comments because we've heard it all before. Then along came delta.
It would be amazing if this fizzled out into the common cold but counting on that happening is asking for trouble.
If cases are falling why don't we really give covid a kicking while its down and bring back masks and working from home? |
Exactly.
Reduce the risks/ damage with minimal intrusion on personal freedoms. |  | | |
| Herd immunity from covid on 03:27 - Oct 29 with 1222 views | BlueBadger |
| Herd immunity from covid on 23:41 - Oct 28 by Digger77 |
Covid will end up resembling common cold by next spring as viruses get weaker as they spread around, so nobody will need a vaccine. |
Or, as seems more likely with the current evidence we have regarding need for boosters, like flu. With annual jabs for whichever particular variant is predominant. |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 03:28 - Oct 29 with 1218 views | BlueBadger |
| Herd immunity from covid on 23:07 - Oct 28 by XYZ |
Given the timescales it's not surprising the first wave of vaccines were not optimal. One would hope there's ongoing development using the mass of real-life evidence that will improve the length of protection.
Meanwhile policies to minimise transmission and the community viral load would appear to be a no-brainer.
I'll go 15th November for Johnson's u-turn on masks and social distancing. |
We've been struggling with rising cases for about 3-4 weeks now, so that would put us firmly in the 'six weeks too late' bracket that he loves. | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 03:33 - Oct 29 with 1216 views | BlueBadger |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:38 - Oct 29 by Digger77 |
Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert and Sir John Bell actually.
We don't need vaccines for common cold, do we? I'm not sure what your problem is. Cases are down again, promising news on treatments, the virus will get weaker by spring ... Things are looking up! |
We're currently seeing more deaths and admissions than the equivalent time than last year. | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 07:19 - Oct 29 with 1137 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:14 - Oct 29 by StokieBlue |
Would you care to expand why not given you started with the leading question?
SB |
I think I would likely take my chances on once a year, particularly as it now seems clearer that vaccinated or not we still transmit the virus.
Maybe it will turn out the more jabs we have the quicker its efficacy declines and we will need 6/year or maybe more. Imagine this being a requirement to work in certain settings or a requirement for a covid passport!
Ps....it was a question, no leading! |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 08:32 - Oct 29 with 1066 views | gtsb1966 |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:39 - Oct 29 by StokieBlue |
Indeed, a poor choice of words, late at night when angry at an awful poster.
You are of course correct and thanks for the clarification. The strains which kill their host before they can spread will die out.
SB |
"Angry at an awful poster". Why, because they have a different opinion to you. You seem to think you are the forum oracle . If you don't agree with someone then fine but that doesn't make them an awful poster as you put it. |  | | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 08:48 - Oct 29 with 1039 views | StokieBlue |
| Herd immunity from covid on 08:32 - Oct 29 by gtsb1966 |
"Angry at an awful poster". Why, because they have a different opinion to you. You seem to think you are the forum oracle . If you don't agree with someone then fine but that doesn't make them an awful poster as you put it. |
To be honest I'm pretty sick of you as well, you're always pushing the "but both sides" argument and are quick to excuse dangerous or obnoxious behaviour. Posters like yourself and digger seem to have become emboldened and it's definitely time to push back and I'm going to whether it's in the style of my former posting or not.
An opinion isn't valid when it goes against all the evidence. I've demonstrably proven he is wrong with regards to masks and natural immunity yet he keeps posting things to downplay covid due to his own warped agenda. He's wrong here to be so certain in his assertion and to tell people to relax essentially.
That behaviour could be dangerous if individuals actually think he knows what he's on about and follow his musings.
If you don't like what I'm posting I suggest you counter it with evidence, studies and coherent discussion rather than citing the opinions are equivalent rubbish.
I think it's fairly shameful that you seek to defend him and assume it's only because you don't want your own opinions challenged. As I said in s previous thread, look at your own posting quality and content before taking aim at others.
SB | | | |
| Herd immunity from covid on 08:51 - Oct 29 with 1024 views | noggin |
| Herd immunity from covid on 08:32 - Oct 29 by gtsb1966 |
"Angry at an awful poster". Why, because they have a different opinion to you. You seem to think you are the forum oracle . If you don't agree with someone then fine but that doesn't make them an awful poster as you put it. |
Opinions are one thing, ignoring the science and spreading falsehoods is quite another. |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 08:55 - Oct 29 with 1016 views | Guthrum |
| Herd immunity from covid on 23:41 - Oct 28 by Digger77 |
Covid will end up resembling common cold by next spring as viruses get weaker as they spread around, so nobody will need a vaccine. |
Smallpox
Influenza
Polio
Three examples of widespread viruses which did not become weaker as they spread. Be wary of applying generalised tendencies to specific situations.
Also, bear in mind that it's primarily vaccination which is keeping down the hospitalisation and death rates (relatively speaking) in this present UK outbreak. |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:04 - Oct 29 with 996 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 08:51 - Oct 29 by noggin |
Opinions are one thing, ignoring the science and spreading falsehoods is quite another. |
Hasn't science even in the short term claimed truths about Covid that have then proved to be falsehoods?
In history 'science' and 'scientists' have brought us things like this...
I https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anthropometry
....none of this is to dismiss science (not even close to it) but to simply caution at worshipping at its temple and presenting yourself as the pervayor of truth at any particular moment. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 9:12]
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:11 - Oct 29 with 970 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Herd immunity from covid on 23:07 - Oct 28 by XYZ |
Given the timescales it's not surprising the first wave of vaccines were not optimal. One would hope there's ongoing development using the mass of real-life evidence that will improve the length of protection.
Meanwhile policies to minimise transmission and the community viral load would appear to be a no-brainer.
I'll go 15th November for Johnson's u-turn on masks and social distancing. |
15th is about right.
We've been told in central govt to expect to be WFH again from mid-November. |  | | |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:13 - Oct 29 with 964 views | DanTheMan |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:04 - Oct 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Hasn't science even in the short term claimed truths about Covid that have then proved to be falsehoods?
In history 'science' and 'scientists' have brought us things like this...
I https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anthropometry
....none of this is to dismiss science (not even close to it) but to simply caution at worshipping at its temple and presenting yourself as the pervayor of truth at any particular moment. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 9:12]
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"none of this is to dismiss science (not even close to it)"
But that's exactly what you are doing.
And I doubt they claimed truths, they probably found evidencing suggesting something which later turns out to be incorrect, which happens all the time, especially with something that is as new as Covid. |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:15 - Oct 29 with 964 views | ElderGrizzly |
| Herd immunity from covid on 00:38 - Oct 29 by Digger77 |
Professor Dame Sarah Gilbert and Sir John Bell actually.
We don't need vaccines for common cold, do we? I'm not sure what your problem is. Cases are down again, promising news on treatments, the virus will get weaker by spring ... Things are looking up! |
Do you know why cases are down in the last week?
We have tested 120,000 fewer people every day for the last 7 days. 730,000 a day, down from 850,000 a day.
Combined with the biggest spreader of Covid (Schools) being on half-term, it's no surprise we've seen a reduction.
Any reduction is good of course, but lets not celebrate quite yet. | | | |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:16 - Oct 29 with 950 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:13 - Oct 29 by DanTheMan |
"none of this is to dismiss science (not even close to it)"
But that's exactly what you are doing.
And I doubt they claimed truths, they probably found evidencing suggesting something which later turns out to be incorrect, which happens all the time, especially with something that is as new as Covid. |
Some of the disciples certainly present them as truths.
Where have I dismissed science? (Edit....in absolute terms) [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 9:18]
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:18 - Oct 29 with 941 views | noggin |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:04 - Oct 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Hasn't science even in the short term claimed truths about Covid that have then proved to be falsehoods?
In history 'science' and 'scientists' have brought us things like this...
I https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_anthropometry
....none of this is to dismiss science (not even close to it) but to simply caution at worshipping at its temple and presenting yourself as the pervayor of truth at any particular moment. [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 9:12]
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But he has ignored the science on masks, which is pretty much universally accepted and then he has stated as fact that the "virus will weaken" making vaccine unnecessary. | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:18 - Oct 29 with 939 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:15 - Oct 29 by ElderGrizzly |
Do you know why cases are down in the last week?
We have tested 120,000 fewer people every day for the last 7 days. 730,000 a day, down from 850,000 a day.
Combined with the biggest spreader of Covid (Schools) being on half-term, it's no surprise we've seen a reduction.
Any reduction is good of course, but lets not celebrate quite yet. |
Thanks for that.....I had wondered. | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:21 - Oct 29 with 927 views | StokieBlue |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:16 - Oct 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Some of the disciples certainly present them as truths.
Where have I dismissed science? (Edit....in absolute terms) [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 9:18]
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You've ignored the science in this thread though, you've said you won't get inconvienent vaccinations if it was required.
That is ignoring the science because you're putting yourself at far higher risk which I am sure is something none of us what to see.
There is a difference here as well. He is saying things that are demonstrably wrong and have peer reviewed papers showing that. What he is stating is true would cause more cases, more deaths and more long covid if people followed what he said.
The natural immunity one was particularly dangerous as it opened up people to both a serious covid infection and the possibility of long covid based on an assumption that is actually not true.
SB | | | |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:26 - Oct 29 with 913 views | DanTheMan |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:16 - Oct 29 by BanksterDebtSlave |
Some of the disciples certainly present them as truths.
Where have I dismissed science? (Edit....in absolute terms) [Post edited 29 Oct 2021 9:18]
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When? Can you give me any examples?
You haven't "in absolute terms" dismissed it but by posting links to "hey look here was a time over a century ago scientists when they were wrong" has absolutely no relevance to what we're talking about. | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:27 - Oct 29 with 911 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Herd immunity from covid on 08:55 - Oct 29 by Guthrum |
Smallpox
Influenza
Polio
Three examples of widespread viruses which did not become weaker as they spread. Be wary of applying generalised tendencies to specific situations.
Also, bear in mind that it's primarily vaccination which is keeping down the hospitalisation and death rates (relatively speaking) in this present UK outbreak. |
Consider these two statements.
If everyone kept to speed limits no one would need to wear a seatbelt. This is demonstrably false, seatbelts save lives.
If everyone was vaccinated no one would need to wear a mask. This is also demonstrably false as masks reduce the spread of the virus.
You don’t have to wait until the government make it mandatory, you don’t have to stop wearing a mask because your mates don’t wear them.
Take some responsibility to protect others. None of us, if we are honest, likes wearing a mask but that isn’t a good enough reason not to. |  |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:42 - Oct 29 with 867 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:18 - Oct 29 by noggin |
But he has ignored the science on masks, which is pretty much universally accepted and then he has stated as fact that the "virus will weaken" making vaccine unnecessary. |
I wasn't defending him in this instance just making a wider point.
Remember when..'get vaccinated, if not for yourself then for others'... was the mantra? Presented by many in absolute terms as a 'truth.' | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:44 - Oct 29 with 862 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:21 - Oct 29 by StokieBlue |
You've ignored the science in this thread though, you've said you won't get inconvienent vaccinations if it was required.
That is ignoring the science because you're putting yourself at far higher risk which I am sure is something none of us what to see.
There is a difference here as well. He is saying things that are demonstrably wrong and have peer reviewed papers showing that. What he is stating is true would cause more cases, more deaths and more long covid if people followed what he said.
The natural immunity one was particularly dangerous as it opened up people to both a serious covid infection and the possibility of long covid based on an assumption that is actually not true.
SB |
Firstly, nobody mentioned 'inconvenience.'
Secondly, as stated to Noggin, none of this is intended to support your protagonists in this instance. | |
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| Herd immunity from covid on 09:47 - Oct 29 with 857 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Herd immunity from covid on 09:26 - Oct 29 by DanTheMan |
When? Can you give me any examples?
You haven't "in absolute terms" dismissed it but by posting links to "hey look here was a time over a century ago scientists when they were wrong" has absolutely no relevance to what we're talking about. |
See my reply to Noggin. | |
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