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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever 16:26 - Nov 11 with 7600 viewsElderGrizzly

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:33 - Nov 12 with 711 viewstractordownsouth

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:24 - Nov 12 by WeWereZombies

It's politics - if the economy isn't supported by some oil money then a lot of SNP supporters get grumpy, especially if they see it as some kind of appeasement to the Greens - which in turn weakens the Greens influence on the SNP. I think you need to let the penny drop that Scotland is a separate nation within a union - that has been the case for more than three hundred years now, you know...


I’m a big supporter of devolution and respect the right of Scotland to deviate in policy matters, but I’m surprised to see Sturgeon refusing to rule it out, especially after hosting COP the last few weeks. It seems a bit contradictory.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:36 - Nov 12 with 703 viewsWeWereZombies

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:33 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

I’m a big supporter of devolution and respect the right of Scotland to deviate in policy matters, but I’m surprised to see Sturgeon refusing to rule it out, especially after hosting COP the last few weeks. It seems a bit contradictory.


Wasn't it Alok Sharma doing the hosting? Nicola has been conspicuous in her, if not absence, quietness - always a sign that something is up and she is gathering strength for an attack or two.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:07 - Nov 12 with 675 viewstractordownsouth

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:36 - Nov 12 by WeWereZombies

Wasn't it Alok Sharma doing the hosting? Nicola has been conspicuous in her, if not absence, quietness - always a sign that something is up and she is gathering strength for an attack or two.


She’s been up there doing photo ops with Biden, AOC and Greta Thunberg. Maybe there’s a dispute on the way though!

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:11 - Nov 12 with 669 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 08:05 - Nov 12 by Herbivore

I mean, this is all just b0llocks though really. I get you're still massively butt hurt about how Corbyn was treated by some in his party but you've lost all sense of reality on this. Your constant attacks on Labour whilst barely batting an eyelid at what a corrupt sh!t show the Tory government is resembles the kind of enabling that you're very keen to accuse others of. Get a fooking grip.
[Post edited 12 Nov 2021 8:25]


The Tories are awful. But so are Labour. That’s the sh!ttiest part of the sh!tshow.

If people are still happy to nod along and wave this stuff through, blue or red, then we deserve the politics, society and economy we get as a result.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:11 - Nov 12 with 667 viewsWeWereZombies

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:07 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

She’s been up there doing photo ops with Biden, AOC and Greta Thunberg. Maybe there’s a dispute on the way though!


I think she has a full sense that Boris Johnson is ailing at the moment.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:16 - Nov 12 with 655 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:08 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

You could almost create a bingo card for DK’s posts

- Something about Labour MPs being the “left side of the establishment” (or buzzwords to that effect)
- Claiming that Labour moderates are worse than Tories because at least the Tories have principles
- Dismissal of the last Labour government
- A plug for Scottish Independence, with bonus points for dismissal of economic forecasts


I’m trying to introduce the wider perspective. That this is bigger and more important than your silly party fanboy stuff.

Oh and you forgot me banging on about the sort of standard social democracy that our European neighbours are benefiting from.

Maybe I should stick a rosette on it and it would make sense to you?

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:21 - Nov 12 with 634 viewsHerbivore

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:11 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

The Tories are awful. But so are Labour. That’s the sh!ttiest part of the sh!tshow.

If people are still happy to nod along and wave this stuff through, blue or red, then we deserve the politics, society and economy we get as a result.


Glad to see you've bought the Tory line that politicians are all the same. Classic enabler stuff right there.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:30 - Nov 12 with 616 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 08:50 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

Read the link above the twitter video.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-57762927.amp


CAMBO isn’t a devolved issue. It’s the UK government that’s responsible.

https://www.reuters.com/article/climate-change-scotland-sturgeon-idAFL1N2QE04L

It’s the same mistake Greenpeace made. In your case it’s party political but in your eagerness to make a point you’ve gone after the wrong target and certainly ignored the wider environmental discussion in Scotland.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:34 - Nov 12 with 598 viewsYou_Bloo_Right

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 00:00 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

I’ve heard the same for 30-odd years.

It hasn’t worked and will never work.


Well that's disappointing.

So going back to the implied question in my post, quo vadis?

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:36 - Nov 12 with 593 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:21 - Nov 12 by Herbivore

Glad to see you've bought the Tory line that politicians are all the same. Classic enabler stuff right there.


It’s a shame you think my disdainful view of the Labour leadership and most of the PLP is based on a Tory narrative rather than the past half-dozen years of witnessing them acting in their own selfish interests and being shyte actors in a supposedly representative democracy.

I think it’s you that’s swallowing the line that they are somehow different. Based on what exactly? Make your case.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:42 - Nov 12 with 569 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:34 - Nov 12 by You_Bloo_Right

Well that's disappointing.

So going back to the implied question in my post, quo vadis?


Getting serious about the challenges and issues facing the UK that are still being kicked down the road. So a focus on actual policies and change.

Neither of the major parties are capable of that it seems. So supporting a progressive alliance around a Green new deal and PR is a step in the right direction both socio-economically and electorally. That’s grown-up politics, while waving a red flag and supporting Starmer’s weak posturing isn’t.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:43 - Nov 12 with 563 viewsStokieBlue

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:36 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

It’s a shame you think my disdainful view of the Labour leadership and most of the PLP is based on a Tory narrative rather than the past half-dozen years of witnessing them acting in their own selfish interests and being shyte actors in a supposedly representative democracy.

I think it’s you that’s swallowing the line that they are somehow different. Based on what exactly? Make your case.


Can you clarify something:

If you think they are essentially the same, does that mean you don't care if the Tories beat Labour in the next election?

SB

SB - (not Simon Batford)

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:47 - Nov 12 with 550 viewsSwansea_Blue

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 19:52 - Nov 11 by Darth_Koont

I don’t expect people to share my view. But I think people should see how we’re heading in a bad direction as a country and one which the current opposition will do little to change.

They’re not offering a positive alternative for many millions of people in the UK. And certainly not addressing the challenges of now and the future.

In any case, a platform that is “A Bit Better than the Tories” won’t win an election either.

But no, that’s not spun. It’s all true.
[Post edited 11 Nov 2021 19:54]


Cheers DK. We'll probably agree to disagree that an improvement isn't positive. I think there would be a significant improvement with the 'Red Tories' compared to the real ones. It would literally save lives and improve livelihoods. We might even reverse the the large increase in scurvy happening on the Tory watch!

Lesser of two evils for me. Although broadly speaking I think you're right that New Labour lacks inspiration for what we could really achieve as a country. We do need to go further. Even for safeguarding the planet for future generations if nothing else. And that's before reducing the extortionate of wealth gap and unravelling the corruption and exploitation associated with big business and chasing big bucks at all costs. it'd be nice to not value money above all else and break the link between money, privilege and power. Not that I really know what I'm talking about!

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:50 - Nov 12 with 542 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:43 - Nov 12 by StokieBlue

Can you clarify something:

If you think they are essentially the same, does that mean you don't care if the Tories beat Labour in the next election?

SB


It’s a tricky one. I’d have more hope that a Labour government would do more in the short term but the current status quo-fetishising leadership cementing the downward trajectory would probably cause more long-term damage.

On a number of issues in society, the economy and the environment real change is needed not managed decline and wasting even more time.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:54 - Nov 12 with 530 viewstractordownsouth

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:30 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

CAMBO isn’t a devolved issue. It’s the UK government that’s responsible.

https://www.reuters.com/article/climate-change-scotland-sturgeon-idAFL1N2QE04L

It’s the same mistake Greenpeace made. In your case it’s party political but in your eagerness to make a point you’ve gone after the wrong target and certainly ignored the wider environmental discussion in Scotland.


It is but surely they’d still be vocally against it as an environmentalist party? Surely they should at least make the case?

Edit: Welfare isn’t devolved in Wales but Mark Drakeford was vocal in opposing and trying to persuade the UK govt not to cut the £20 a week.
[Post edited 12 Nov 2021 10:56]

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:55 - Nov 12 with 528 viewsStokieBlue

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:50 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

It’s a tricky one. I’d have more hope that a Labour government would do more in the short term but the current status quo-fetishising leadership cementing the downward trajectory would probably cause more long-term damage.

On a number of issues in society, the economy and the environment real change is needed not managed decline and wasting even more time.


Thanks DK.

So to me this looks a bit like the "Nirvana" fallacy in that just because something isn't absolutely perfect there is no point doing it.

For me, whilst Labour might not be everything people want they are still better than the self-serving and incompetent Tories.

The leadership might not be who you want but leaders aren't forever, even when in power (as Boris will find out early next year).

SB

SB - (not Simon Batford)

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:57 - Nov 12 with 522 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:47 - Nov 12 by Swansea_Blue

Cheers DK. We'll probably agree to disagree that an improvement isn't positive. I think there would be a significant improvement with the 'Red Tories' compared to the real ones. It would literally save lives and improve livelihoods. We might even reverse the the large increase in scurvy happening on the Tory watch!

Lesser of two evils for me. Although broadly speaking I think you're right that New Labour lacks inspiration for what we could really achieve as a country. We do need to go further. Even for safeguarding the planet for future generations if nothing else. And that's before reducing the extortionate of wealth gap and unravelling the corruption and exploitation associated with big business and chasing big bucks at all costs. it'd be nice to not value money above all else and break the link between money, privilege and power. Not that I really know what I'm talking about!


Cheers. And I agree with what you are saying. For me, it’s the long-term picture that’s most worrying and one where the short-term benefits of getting the Tories out are a poor trade-off. I think a Labour government along its current lines will just cement inactivity on the major issues.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:03 - Nov 12 with 507 viewsWeWereZombies

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:54 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

It is but surely they’d still be vocally against it as an environmentalist party? Surely they should at least make the case?

Edit: Welfare isn’t devolved in Wales but Mark Drakeford was vocal in opposing and trying to persuade the UK govt not to cut the £20 a week.
[Post edited 12 Nov 2021 10:56]


To be fair to Nicola, she is making the case for ending the use of fossil fuels but there is pushback. And a lot of votes attach to people's jobs, heating their homes and being able to get around in their cars:

https://www.thenational.scot/news/19670992.oil-gas-chiefs-react-sturgeon-vow-end

Content advisory: The National is very pro-independence so take what is written, as you should with any newspaper, with a pinch of salt.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:04 - Nov 12 with 506 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:55 - Nov 12 by StokieBlue

Thanks DK.

So to me this looks a bit like the "Nirvana" fallacy in that just because something isn't absolutely perfect there is no point doing it.

For me, whilst Labour might not be everything people want they are still better than the self-serving and incompetent Tories.

The leadership might not be who you want but leaders aren't forever, even when in power (as Boris will find out early next year).

SB


No, that’s not what I’m saying. I think the long-term dangers increase if the supposed acceptable and right solution is this sort of political leadership.

But I even think it’s electorally a dud too. There’s a reason that Labour voters were dropping by the millions from 1997 onwards. Returning to that style and not the policies and leadership that brought voters back to the party in 2017 seems madness. Not least because there were actual solutions to real-life challenges in that “populist” approach.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:04 - Nov 12 with 506 viewstractordownsouth

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:16 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

I’m trying to introduce the wider perspective. That this is bigger and more important than your silly party fanboy stuff.

Oh and you forgot me banging on about the sort of standard social democracy that our European neighbours are benefiting from.

Maybe I should stick a rosette on it and it would make sense to you?


I struggle to see where the fanboy label comes from. I’m happy to point out the mistakes the leadership has made - not following up on comms after policy announcements has been an issue so has Starmer reneging on a few of his leadership commitments (the pandemic does give him a little wriggle room on the latter but not as much as he’s taking)

So far Starmer hasn’t enthused the people who already vote Labour, which is a problem, but equally he doesn’t repel people who would normally consider it but couldn’t under Corbyn. And it hasn’t actually been to the detriment of policy in a lot of areas - the minimum wage increase and removal of zero hour contracts have been lifted straight from the 2017/19 manifestos.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:06 - Nov 12 with 498 viewsYou_Bloo_Right

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:42 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

Getting serious about the challenges and issues facing the UK that are still being kicked down the road. So a focus on actual policies and change.

Neither of the major parties are capable of that it seems. So supporting a progressive alliance around a Green new deal and PR is a step in the right direction both socio-economically and electorally. That’s grown-up politics, while waving a red flag and supporting Starmer’s weak posturing isn’t.


OK thank you.

I get the Green "new deal" approach and there are many aspects of Green party policy that show a deal more social democracy than current Labour positions.

The crunch here, though, is PR. As I assume like you, I think this is essential if as a country we are to move forward politically. Now how do we achieve a change to the voting system in as short a time frame as possible? The previous vote on this was a shambles for, it seems to me, a variety of reasons (too many options, no clear direction on preferred option, if not exactly a concerted attack on the idea by the media then certainly a lukewarm response).

As things stand, and just on the PR issue, one seems faced with a choice between voting for one of the two parties likely to form a government and push for the change to the voting system OR vote for a party that has this change in its manifesto and hope that sufficient numbers of people do likewise in order that said party either forms the government or, like the Lib Dems previously, holds the balance of power and pushes the issue.

None of those options seem likely to deliver the required change in a time frame that would have any meaning to an old codger like me. That doesn't mean to say that I think the premise is wrong or that I have "given up". What it does mean is that I will work within the confines of the current system to attempt to achieve that end - if not for me then for those that follow on.

Does that mean I will vote "Green"? In an established PR system where such a vote carries the best possibility of being useful, absolutely. In a first past the post system where that vote is likely to be (and seen to be) little more than a protest, no.

The problem with grown up politics, of course, is that significant numbers of the electorate don't view politics that way.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:14 - Nov 12 with 495 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 10:54 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

It is but surely they’d still be vocally against it as an environmentalist party? Surely they should at least make the case?

Edit: Welfare isn’t devolved in Wales but Mark Drakeford was vocal in opposing and trying to persuade the UK govt not to cut the £20 a week.
[Post edited 12 Nov 2021 10:56]


I’ll refer you back to Zombers post. Which explained it very well.

It’s not that simple and there’s the context of what’s actually going on in Scotland and how it weans itself off the offshore economy. The Scottish Greens know this, Greenpeace doesn’t and Scottish Labour are hypocrites desperately searching for a point.

But the fact remains, this is not a devolved issue. And turning CAMBO itself into the battleground won’t help. Even so, Sturgeon is asking the UK government to reassess the decision so I guess we’ll see where that leaves us.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:22 - Nov 12 with 482 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:04 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth

I struggle to see where the fanboy label comes from. I’m happy to point out the mistakes the leadership has made - not following up on comms after policy announcements has been an issue so has Starmer reneging on a few of his leadership commitments (the pandemic does give him a little wriggle room on the latter but not as much as he’s taking)

So far Starmer hasn’t enthused the people who already vote Labour, which is a problem, but equally he doesn’t repel people who would normally consider it but couldn’t under Corbyn. And it hasn’t actually been to the detriment of policy in a lot of areas - the minimum wage increase and removal of zero hour contracts have been lifted straight from the 2017/19 manifestos.


Here’s what I wrote before that you’re still free to challenge if you disagree on any points and we can go into the detail:

“[Starmer et al have been busy chasing out Jewish sccialists] as well as welcoming islamophobes, and tolerating anti-BAME racism, misogyny and transphobia among staff and cabinet allies.

Coupled with lukewarm policies that mirror Boris’s token levelling up and social/environmental justice (but really protect the establishment and donor interests), where’s the difference between them and the Tories?

Deeply uninspiring and ultimately disturbing stuff.”

Sorry to go all Bluefish but yours is the happy-clapping, well-said nonsense that the Labour right and centrist pundits tell themselves. They have little to no conviction on anything other than gaining control of the party and shoring up the establishment’s left flank and their own influence with it. Name me a single real-world idea that is about actually changing anything as opposed to tinkering at the edges.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:25 - Nov 12 with 472 viewsHerbivore

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:22 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont

Here’s what I wrote before that you’re still free to challenge if you disagree on any points and we can go into the detail:

“[Starmer et al have been busy chasing out Jewish sccialists] as well as welcoming islamophobes, and tolerating anti-BAME racism, misogyny and transphobia among staff and cabinet allies.

Coupled with lukewarm policies that mirror Boris’s token levelling up and social/environmental justice (but really protect the establishment and donor interests), where’s the difference between them and the Tories?

Deeply uninspiring and ultimately disturbing stuff.”

Sorry to go all Bluefish but yours is the happy-clapping, well-said nonsense that the Labour right and centrist pundits tell themselves. They have little to no conviction on anything other than gaining control of the party and shoring up the establishment’s left flank and their own influence with it. Name me a single real-world idea that is about actually changing anything as opposed to tinkering at the edges.


What do you consider to be "the establishment's left flank"? You use this term a lot but I'm not sure what you mean by it.

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Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:33 - Nov 12 with 464 viewsDarth_Koont

Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:06 - Nov 12 by You_Bloo_Right

OK thank you.

I get the Green "new deal" approach and there are many aspects of Green party policy that show a deal more social democracy than current Labour positions.

The crunch here, though, is PR. As I assume like you, I think this is essential if as a country we are to move forward politically. Now how do we achieve a change to the voting system in as short a time frame as possible? The previous vote on this was a shambles for, it seems to me, a variety of reasons (too many options, no clear direction on preferred option, if not exactly a concerted attack on the idea by the media then certainly a lukewarm response).

As things stand, and just on the PR issue, one seems faced with a choice between voting for one of the two parties likely to form a government and push for the change to the voting system OR vote for a party that has this change in its manifesto and hope that sufficient numbers of people do likewise in order that said party either forms the government or, like the Lib Dems previously, holds the balance of power and pushes the issue.

None of those options seem likely to deliver the required change in a time frame that would have any meaning to an old codger like me. That doesn't mean to say that I think the premise is wrong or that I have "given up". What it does mean is that I will work within the confines of the current system to attempt to achieve that end - if not for me then for those that follow on.

Does that mean I will vote "Green"? In an established PR system where such a vote carries the best possibility of being useful, absolutely. In a first past the post system where that vote is likely to be (and seen to be) little more than a protest, no.

The problem with grown up politics, of course, is that significant numbers of the electorate don't view politics that way.


Good post. Agree with all that.

It’d have to be an electoral alliance to start with and then see what PR legislation can be pushed when in power. But there’s 2-3 years before the next election so there’s A) time to see that movement develop outside mainstream politics (like a UKIP for good not evil) and B) we’ll see just where Starmer and Labour are.

I really believe the Labour right care first and foremost about controlling the party rather than winning elections (they proved that in 2017 and 2019) but the pressure to put up an actual electoral challenge will come the more they look lost. With the boundary changes in 2023 they’ll be likely even further away. Let’s not forget they’re marginally ahead of the worst government ever at their worst time but that’s really all their lead is based on.

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