| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever 16:26 - Nov 11 with 7592 views | ElderGrizzly |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:39 - Nov 12 with 1777 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:25 - Nov 12 by Herbivore |
What do you consider to be "the establishment's left flank"? You use this term a lot but I'm not sure what you mean by it. |
The nominal and approved “left” of public debate and power in political parties, the media and our institutions. Our system, in other words.
It’s certainly not left-wing or indeed centre-left in objective terms. It’s pretty much centre-right Blairite. |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:41 - Nov 12 with 1775 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 09:36 - Nov 12 by WeWereZombies |
Wasn't it Alok Sharma doing the hosting? Nicola has been conspicuous in her, if not absence, quietness - always a sign that something is up and she is gathering strength for an attack or two. |
She's been far too busy doing selfies with Greta and other celebs. |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:44 - Nov 12 with 1754 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:41 - Nov 12 by GlasgowBlue |
She's been far too busy doing selfies with Greta and other celebs. |
Yeah, that looked like a real round-the-clock job ... | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:46 - Nov 12 with 1743 views | Oldboy |
Because of the Conservatives rather than a strong Labour party unfortunately. |  | | |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:49 - Nov 12 with 1727 views | WeWereZombies |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:41 - Nov 12 by GlasgowBlue |
She's been far too busy doing selfies with Greta and other celebs. |
Which haven't really made it into the mainstream, unless all you read is The National and The Herald... |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:56 - Nov 12 with 1718 views | RadioOrwell |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 16:27 - Nov 11 by J2BLUE |
Wait until Rishi hits the public with some tax cuts and the papers focus on Starmer eating a slice of pizza with a knife and fork or something equally tedious. They will soon turn that around. |
A Labour leader can't wear the wrong kind of overcoat on remembrance Sunday. So that lead could easily change by Monday. |  | | |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:56 - Nov 12 with 1718 views | Herbivore |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:39 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
The nominal and approved “left” of public debate and power in political parties, the media and our institutions. Our system, in other words.
It’s certainly not left-wing or indeed centre-left in objective terms. It’s pretty much centre-right Blairite. |
So an idea you've made up essentially, no actual institutions or anything. |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 12:29 - Nov 12 with 1682 views | You_Bloo_Right |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:33 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
Good post. Agree with all that.
It’d have to be an electoral alliance to start with and then see what PR legislation can be pushed when in power. But there’s 2-3 years before the next election so there’s A) time to see that movement develop outside mainstream politics (like a UKIP for good not evil) and B) we’ll see just where Starmer and Labour are.
I really believe the Labour right care first and foremost about controlling the party rather than winning elections (they proved that in 2017 and 2019) but the pressure to put up an actual electoral challenge will come the more they look lost. With the boundary changes in 2023 they’ll be likely even further away. Let’s not forget they’re marginally ahead of the worst government ever at their worst time but that’s really all their lead is based on. |
The single most important point for me, as I said, is PR (well, maybe coupled with compulsory voting) - in theory all things derive from there. However, there are other pressing issues and the country needs a drastic change of priorities. The dilemma for me is that I need to see something in place that isn't this current mob, and as soon as possible, even if that means the slightest of changes.
Unfortunately, even with a concerted campaign, I don't see PR being "front and centre" for some time (not meaning to use your off-hand remark to beat you down but it is a useful analogy I think - UKIP were a nonsense and over-shadowed by the Referendum Party until the latter's demise in 1997 - even with members moving to UKIP thereafter and forcing the referendum issue higher up the UKIP agenda and even with Cameron running scared of losing members and even MPs to UKIP, it still took another 20 years for a referendum to be held).
Neither do I see an electoral alliance as being a timely or perhaps even effective way forward in the short term. Electoral alliances do seem unpopular with the electorate (at least that's what the press would have us believe) and the fact such an alliance has not been forthcoming even after the disaster (for Labour) of 2019 speaks volumes. Is it wrong to drive the idea? "No", would be my own view but I think an expectation that such an idea would, in 2-3 years, have enough of an impact, in the wider political framework or in the confines of the Labour party, to make a difference is perhaps too optimistic.
Labour has always had, and will always have, enormous difficulty in securing power (and that has to be the first target surely?). To put up an effective electoral challenge means securing the votes of people who would like to see a more radical approach but also many others (and there are more of them!) who view such ideas as "dangerously left-wing" (whatever that means). This has always been Labour's problem, as has being seen as many different things by many different people (the "broad church").
It is interesting that you view the Labour right's raison d'etre as being controlling the party - that is exactly the same allegation that has been (probably continues to be) made against the Labour left. |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 12:46 - Nov 12 with 1661 views | WeWereZombies |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:56 - Nov 12 by RadioOrwell |
A Labour leader can't wear the wrong kind of overcoat on remembrance Sunday. So that lead could easily change by Monday. |
If Starmer puts in the type of appearance that he did last year, being the only person there apart from serving officers and her majesty, who didn't look like a sack of potatoes then yes, you could be right, the lead that Labour have over the Conservatives may well double by the end of the weekend. But, hopefully, the populace are not so shallow as to make critical political decisions (not that a poll lead is one of those) on the back of what someone is wearing... | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 13:08 - Nov 12 with 1650 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:22 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
Here’s what I wrote before that you’re still free to challenge if you disagree on any points and we can go into the detail:
“[Starmer et al have been busy chasing out Jewish sccialists] as well as welcoming islamophobes, and tolerating anti-BAME racism, misogyny and transphobia among staff and cabinet allies.
Coupled with lukewarm policies that mirror Boris’s token levelling up and social/environmental justice (but really protect the establishment and donor interests), where’s the difference between them and the Tories?
Deeply uninspiring and ultimately disturbing stuff.”
Sorry to go all Bluefish but yours is the happy-clapping, well-said nonsense that the Labour right and centrist pundits tell themselves. They have little to no conviction on anything other than gaining control of the party and shoring up the establishment’s left flank and their own influence with it. Name me a single real-world idea that is about actually changing anything as opposed to tinkering at the edges. |
BINGO!
On a more serious note, I agree that there needs to be more leadership with regards to trans rights - not sure where the examples of anti-BAME racism, Islamophobia and misogyny are from the shadow cabinet though.
Plenty of policy differences in the link were set out in the most recent conference (although granted the communications to follow it up have been shoddy.) In particular, I think the decision to strengthen employment law with the removal of zero-hours contracts is a pretty big idea, and presumably you thought so too when it was in Corbyn's manifesto. The stuff about scrapping business rates is ambitious too - big online companies profiting at the expense of the high street is one of the biggest economic challenges, especially when it comes to regional inequality.
The Tories would never do those things.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-party-conference-2021-announcements-pol |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 13:53 - Nov 12 with 1607 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 13:08 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth |
BINGO!
On a more serious note, I agree that there needs to be more leadership with regards to trans rights - not sure where the examples of anti-BAME racism, Islamophobia and misogyny are from the shadow cabinet though.
Plenty of policy differences in the link were set out in the most recent conference (although granted the communications to follow it up have been shoddy.) In particular, I think the decision to strengthen employment law with the removal of zero-hours contracts is a pretty big idea, and presumably you thought so too when it was in Corbyn's manifesto. The stuff about scrapping business rates is ambitious too - big online companies profiting at the expense of the high street is one of the biggest economic challenges, especially when it comes to regional inequality.
The Tories would never do those things.
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/labour-party-conference-2021-announcements-pol |
Zero-hours contracts is good, I’ll give you. But the lowest-hanging fruit for even a centre-right government.
Raising corporate tax was something the Tories would never do ... now that looks like being Labour.
And the examples in the shadow cabinet are them putting up with discrimination within the organisation with no sign of the opportunistic bleatings around comparatively unevidenced antisemitism just a few years ago. Talking of which, their recent performance over the LSE protests and support for a racist ambassador of a racist Israeli government beggars belief. Disgusting behaviour from them.
You and others think they’re different from the Tories.I think they’re just a different flavour of the same self-serving, unprincipled and ultimately dangerous incompetents who shouldn’t be running the country either. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 13:58 - Nov 12 with 1591 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 13:53 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
Zero-hours contracts is good, I’ll give you. But the lowest-hanging fruit for even a centre-right government.
Raising corporate tax was something the Tories would never do ... now that looks like being Labour.
And the examples in the shadow cabinet are them putting up with discrimination within the organisation with no sign of the opportunistic bleatings around comparatively unevidenced antisemitism just a few years ago. Talking of which, their recent performance over the LSE protests and support for a racist ambassador of a racist Israeli government beggars belief. Disgusting behaviour from them.
You and others think they’re different from the Tories.I think they’re just a different flavour of the same self-serving, unprincipled and ultimately dangerous incompetents who shouldn’t be running the country either. |
The stuff with the Israeli ambassador is more of a nuanced situation. Her disregard for a 2 state solution and opposition to mixed marriage are horrendous and racist, and protesting those things is democratic and justified in my view. However, it got very ugly with incitement to violence coming from a group of students, which crosses the line IMO. Regardless of views, that shouldn't be happening.
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:04 - Nov 12 with 1578 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:56 - Nov 12 by Herbivore |
So an idea you've made up essentially, no actual institutions or anything. |
Eh?
Do you think I’ve made up the concept of the establishment or the system, and that there are left, right or centre components to that concept? | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:09 - Nov 12 with 1570 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 13:58 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth |
The stuff with the Israeli ambassador is more of a nuanced situation. Her disregard for a 2 state solution and opposition to mixed marriage are horrendous and racist, and protesting those things is democratic and justified in my view. However, it got very ugly with incitement to violence coming from a group of students, which crosses the line IMO. Regardless of views, that shouldn't be happening.
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You really shouldn’t be peddling an exaggerated narrative nor fake social media.
And the accusation of antisemitism is a disgusting one. “Calling it what it is ...” get tae fück. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:10 - Nov 12 with 1565 views | footers |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 11:56 - Nov 12 by RadioOrwell |
A Labour leader can't wear the wrong kind of overcoat on remembrance Sunday. So that lead could easily change by Monday. |
The Queen Mother liked it. |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:11 - Nov 12 with 1558 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:09 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
You really shouldn’t be peddling an exaggerated narrative nor fake social media.
And the accusation of antisemitism is a disgusting one. “Calling it what it is ...” get tae fück. |
I didn't link that original tweet - it came up automatically because the one I shared (the screenshot of the instagram account) was in response to the original | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:19 - Nov 12 with 1546 views | footers |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:04 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
Eh?
Do you think I’ve made up the concept of the establishment or the system, and that there are left, right or centre components to that concept? |
I often find these arguments between you and Herb slightly confusing.
You're a democratic socialist and Herbs is a Marxist so not sure why we're not singing from a similar (if not the same) hymn sheet more often.
You're the two posters I agree with most on matters political (Spruce RIP) so a bit weird to see. Maybe the leftist trope of us all arguing over small trifles instead of uniting around a common cause? | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:27 - Nov 12 with 1538 views | Herbivore |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:04 - Nov 12 by Darth_Koont |
Eh?
Do you think I’ve made up the concept of the establishment or the system, and that there are left, right or centre components to that concept? |
Give some examples of what you mean by the left side of the establishment. It shouldn't be so hard. The establishment is a rather nebulous idea at the best of times but you can usually point to things - the print media, the monarchy, influential business leaders, public schools, Oxbridge - that can serve as examples of what it is. What constitutes the left side of the establishment that Starmer and Labour are attempting to shore up and how exactly are they doing so? I'm not really a fan of buzzwords, I prefer trying to be clear on such matters. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:31 - Nov 12 with 1532 views | Herbivore |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:19 - Nov 12 by footers |
I often find these arguments between you and Herb slightly confusing.
You're a democratic socialist and Herbs is a Marxist so not sure why we're not singing from a similar (if not the same) hymn sheet more often.
You're the two posters I agree with most on matters political (Spruce RIP) so a bit weird to see. Maybe the leftist trope of us all arguing over small trifles instead of uniting around a common cause? |
It's easy to try and take the political high ground whilst being a well paid shill working in advertising. I, however, try to be aware that just because I can afford my ideological purity, it doesn't mean the less fortunate in society can. First and foremost the people of this country need the Tories gone at the earliest opportunity, we can do 6th form politics later. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:38 - Nov 12 with 1526 views | footers |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:31 - Nov 12 by Herbivore |
It's easy to try and take the political high ground whilst being a well paid shill working in advertising. I, however, try to be aware that just because I can afford my ideological purity, it doesn't mean the less fortunate in society can. First and foremost the people of this country need the Tories gone at the earliest opportunity, we can do 6th form politics later. |
I agree with both of you really. We need a Labour government but we need one that actually addresses the immediate problems we face as a country and a world.
How do you make that message cut through is my question. We basically need a non-evil Mandelson. The Tories should be like fish in a barrel atm but Starmer isn't proving particularly effective. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:48 - Nov 12 with 1510 views | Herbivore |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:38 - Nov 12 by footers |
I agree with both of you really. We need a Labour government but we need one that actually addresses the immediate problems we face as a country and a world.
How do you make that message cut through is my question. We basically need a non-evil Mandelson. The Tories should be like fish in a barrel atm but Starmer isn't proving particularly effective. |
Labour started off an absolute mile back though plus you've still got the warm, fuzzy glow of getting Brexit done and the fact that incumbents tend to fare well during crises, even whilst handling them abysmally.
It's not really been a 'normal' 18 months in politics and let's be honest, policy wise we know very little about what either party stands for as it's all been highly reactive rather than proactive. And we're way off another GE still so it's too early to offer anything close to a manifesto.
Corbyn was so divisive that whoever followed was doomed. Too many bitter recriminations from the likes of Koonters at any perceived attack on the former Corbynites and too many of said Corbynites unwilling to face up to the reality that he was rejected by the electorate in spectacular fashion and shown up as being rather hopeless in the process. Anything other than a continuation of Corbynism wouldn't appease them, sadly. Feels like Starmer will be the face to steady the ship and get some credibility back with the majority of the electorate (rather than just the rich kids at Glasto) before someone else comes in to really take the party forward and hopefully by then some of the resentments will have simmered down enough for a Labour to emerge that we can all get behind. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 15:00 - Nov 12 with 1496 views | giant_stow |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 00:32 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth |
Here’s one of the MSPs disregarding an opinion of a well-respected international NGO on a cross-border issue because of its office being based in England. Defending the SNP failing to rule out the Cambo oil field policy on this basis is not only a sell out of environmentalist principles but a bit of a dog whistle don’t you think?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-
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What did I just watch?! Blimey, how he kept a straight face there, I'll never know. How depressing that a green politician can be so easily swayed by power. |  |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 15:01 - Nov 12 with 1491 views | Cotty |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 17:27 - Nov 11 by Darth_Koont |
Is Starmer doing well?
Serious question. As I think he’s been awful (dishonest, unprincipled and incompetent) and offers a terrible choice for the country.
This is the Tories doing even worse than before. |
It's a shame the left have to rip each other to shreds all of the time. Shouldn't we be doing that to the Tories? I'd rather have ANY labour leader in charge than this dangerous, corrupt and incompetent bunch of lying dishonest psychopaths. Wouldn't you?
Time to get over Jeremy and back the horse most likely to beat the horse we must stop at all costs. |  | | |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 15:45 - Nov 12 with 1471 views | tractordownsouth |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 15:00 - Nov 12 by giant_stow |
What did I just watch?! Blimey, how he kept a straight face there, I'll never know. How depressing that a green politician can be so easily swayed by power. |
Personally, I think he's doing a very good job at shoring up the left side of the establishment. | |
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| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 21:12 - Nov 12 with 1387 views | Darth_Koont |
| Labour leading a voting opinion poll for the first time in like forever on 14:11 - Nov 12 by tractordownsouth |
I didn't link that original tweet - it came up automatically because the one I shared (the screenshot of the instagram account) was in response to the original |
So you could delete it but you’re happy with a smear so long as it serves its purpose.
Classy. | |
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