| Bye bye Boris… on 16:50 - Jan 2 with 1014 views | Herbivore |
| Bye bye Boris… on 16:46 - Jan 2 by noggin |
Brainwashed electorate voting against their own interests. |
There's some truth in that but it's also a very lazy explanation for what happened. Corbyn should have stood down after losing the GE in 2017, the 2 years that followed under him did so much damage and he takes a lot of the blame for that. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 17:02 - Jan 2 with 980 views | noggin |
| Bye bye Boris… on 16:50 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
There's some truth in that but it's also a very lazy explanation for what happened. Corbyn should have stood down after losing the GE in 2017, the 2 years that followed under him did so much damage and he takes a lot of the blame for that. |
Wouldn't have made much difference unless the new leader was promising to get brexit done and stop foreigners coming in. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 17:09 - Jan 2 with 963 views | istanblue |
| Bye bye Boris… on 10:05 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
To be fair, we had 5 years of centrists and soft-left not just nodding along and waving through right-wing attack lines but amplifying them and adding their own.
If you see me talking about Starmer as Captain Hindsight, covering up Savile and other paedophile rings or whatever other poorly evidenced nonsense then I’d expect full-on criticism.
The problem I have with many centrists and the “soft left” on here and in the public sphere is that they’re also against most progressive policies apart from social justice. They’re not at all interested in European social democracy that involves raising taxes and increasing public spending – that’s where the whole third way stuff came from. But for me that’s fatally ignoring reality and the needs of the UK when we already have the Tories to do that job.
Ignoring those needs has directly led to the increasing likelihood of the breakup of the UK, massive structural and regional imbalance in our economy, disturbingly low productivity, Brexit, an eye-watering young/old divide, soon to be 5 million children in poverty and more. These aren’t Tory issues per se even though they naturally made all this much worse. And remembering the glory days of New Labour when we had it so good (in an upswing in the global economy FFS) is ignoring the continued worsening of the underlying structural situation on their watch.
Starmer’s Labour just isn’t a solution for me. It’s more of the same but at a time when the UK is starting to get on the @rse-end of any changes in the global economy. Nothing to do with party politics and certainly nothing to do with silly factionalism (I’ve never been a Labour member and only sporadically a Labour voter). I just want us to be talking about the real issues and real solutions or things are just going to keep getting worse for too many people, minorities and regions.
(On a completely separate note, loved your 80s mix! Made kitchen-cleaning duties more than bearable when I was tempted to bring out the flame-thrower and torch everything 😀) |
They're social fascists |  | | |
| Bye bye Boris… on 17:12 - Jan 2 with 961 views | Herbivore |
| Bye bye Boris… on 17:02 - Jan 2 by noggin |
Wouldn't have made much difference unless the new leader was promising to get brexit done and stop foreigners coming in. |
Again, I'd say that's a simplistic and lazy take. If nothing else it ignores that a more astute opposition leader probably wouldn't have agreed to fight a GE based almost entirely on Brexit. They also probably wouldn't have been so toxic as to make meaningful cross-party solutions to the issue of Brexit more or less impossible. There's still a refusal to accept Corbyn's flaws and the damage they've caused us all from his most ardent supporters. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 17:12 - Jan 2 with 960 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Bye bye Boris… on 21:49 - Jan 1 by footers |
As I've said from day one, forget the man, focus on the policies.
No one could disagree that Corbyn himself was an electoral failure but his policies were actually progressive. We need more of that now and less of the reversion to Blairism which will only exacerbate the continuing issues the country faces. I don't think Starmer's the answer.
Anything but the Tories is good, but we should aim higher than that. |
I voted for Labour at the two General Elections under Corbyn.
But I did so with a heavy heart, for two main reasons:
1) I'm a passionate internationalist and Corbyn's half-hearted performance in both the Brexit Referendum and afterwards left me feeling very let down. He didn't reflect the views of the Party membership, the PLP, or the majority of Labour voters, and could have made the difference both before and after the Referendum, had he chosen to do so.
2) He was a very poor Parliamentary performer. He failed to win PMQs against May, and often appeared to struggle if required to cope with more than one topic of questions. He did not have the speed of thought to change tack, and, in my opinion, would simply not have coped with PMQs as Prime Minister. It would have been carnage.
I was happy with the policies, generally, as I was under Milliband, but not with the presentation, the weird personality cult nor the ability to perform when it mattered.
And then there were questions to be answered over anti-Semitism within Labour under Corbyn and of course plenty of mud being flung about the various comrades he had shared a platform with over the years. The latter with less substance than the former, in my opinion, but so much mud was being flung that at the least he looked naiive, at worst he was made to look like he condoned terrorist attacks on civilians (again, unfairly in my view, but the Press is mostly owned by Tory supporters and their picture editors do what they are told).
So he had to go after two General Election defeats. He should have gone after one, in my opinion, and then he might have been able to bring through a credible Left wing successor. By the time of the leadership election which Starmer won, Corbyn was damaged goods and received wisdom was that a change was needed.
But right now the whole of the progressive electorate needs to move heaven and earth to unseat the Government which has undermined the checks and balances on Executive power which have been at the heart of our "unwritten Constitution" (sic, because the past few years have demonstrated that we don't even have that) for centuries. And we need to bring in Proportional Representation to undercut the bias towards the Tories inherent in First Past the Post, accentuated by recent Tory gerrymandering and deliberate interference in the work of the Electoral Commission.
So we all need to bury the hatchet (or maybe that should be "Put down the ice pick"?) and Left, Soft Left, Left of Centre, Social Democrats, Greens and Liberals (heck, even decent Conservatives like Rory Stewart) need to work to reestablish a fair and functional political system that is trustworthy and dependable and doesn't allow ANY individual to put themselves above the law by, for example:
Breaking Electoral Commission guidelines on funding
Refusing to publish or acknowledge Electoral Commission report findings of fact
Refusing to publish House of Commons Committee reports
Illegally proroguing Parliament
Making "annoying" protest liable to 10 years in prison
Introducing huge amounts of legislation through Ministerial fiat, without reference to Parliament
Removing the important check on Ministerial power of Judicial Review
Giving the Home Secretary increased powers, without reference to Parliament or the Legal system, to remove an individual's citizenship
Announcing regulations through Press Conferences, rather than in Parliament
How anyone with any respect for law and order, or even basic fair play and decency, can vote Tory given the above (which is purely about the destruction of Parliamentary Sovereignty, and gaming of the Electoral System, and doesn't begin to cover Tory ineptitude or corruption in other areas) is quite beyond me.
We need to focus all fire on Johnson and co, and stop the infighting. Anything else is signing the death warrant for Parliamentary Democracy in this country.
The policy emphasis that is needed is the reformation of politics, rooting out of corruption and establishment of a fair electoral system which enfranchises everyone, enshrined in a Constitution. And that can only be achieved by a coalition approach. |  | | |
| Bye bye Boris… on 17:51 - Jan 2 with 907 views | Darth_Koont |
| Bye bye Boris… on 16:50 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
There's some truth in that but it's also a very lazy explanation for what happened. Corbyn should have stood down after losing the GE in 2017, the 2 years that followed under him did so much damage and he takes a lot of the blame for that. |
Eh? He brought millions of voters back to Labour in 2017.
What followed was a ramping up of the smear campaigns including a very poorly evidenced antisemitism attack plus the shenanigans of Change UK and the People’s Vote lobby over Labour’s Brexit position.
Labour were then hamstrung going into a Brexit election in 2019. With little to no focus on the actual policies unless it was disparaging and treated as the debunked magic money tree nonsense or called communism.
I don’t blame the electorate for their perceptions but I do blame the politicians and pundits who were instrumental in creating them. For the benefit of themselves and ultimately Boris Johnson ...
It takes a massive denial of that reality to put the blame on Corbyn for 2019 and simultaneously reject what he had achieved in 2017 from a poor starting point in 2015. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 17:57 - Jan 2 with 886 views | Darth_Koont |
| Bye bye Boris… on 16:43 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
Handing the Tories an 80+ seat majority doesn't suggest to me that Corbyn was successful in creating a broad church. He couldn't even appeal to traditional Labour heartlands, let alone win over the floating voters in the political middle ground. |
See above.
We both know you’re talking about perceptions and fears that were stoked rather than reality. Can you give me a bad or indeed dangerous policy on its own terms? | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:03 - Jan 2 with 853 views | Herbivore |
| Bye bye Boris… on 17:51 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
Eh? He brought millions of voters back to Labour in 2017.
What followed was a ramping up of the smear campaigns including a very poorly evidenced antisemitism attack plus the shenanigans of Change UK and the People’s Vote lobby over Labour’s Brexit position.
Labour were then hamstrung going into a Brexit election in 2019. With little to no focus on the actual policies unless it was disparaging and treated as the debunked magic money tree nonsense or called communism.
I don’t blame the electorate for their perceptions but I do blame the politicians and pundits who were instrumental in creating them. For the benefit of themselves and ultimately Boris Johnson ...
It takes a massive denial of that reality to put the blame on Corbyn for 2019 and simultaneously reject what he had achieved in 2017 from a poor starting point in 2015. |
Definitely not a cult. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:05 - Jan 2 with 842 views | noggin |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:03 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
Definitely not a cult. |
Only in Britain and America would voters seeking socialist policies be labeled a cult. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:06 - Jan 2 with 838 views | Darth_Koont |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:03 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
Definitely not a cult. |
Disappointing, Herbs.
Never go full lowhouse. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:10 - Jan 2 with 806 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Bye bye Boris… on 16:50 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
There's some truth in that but it's also a very lazy explanation for what happened. Corbyn should have stood down after losing the GE in 2017, the 2 years that followed under him did so much damage and he takes a lot of the blame for that. |
If only all that New Labour/Remain energy had gone into promoting a more 'sensible' version of leaving along the Norway model rather than trying to overturn a democratic vote! Good to be reminded of where their real priorities were though. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:11 - Jan 2 with 798 views | footers |
| Bye bye Boris… on 17:12 - Jan 2 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I voted for Labour at the two General Elections under Corbyn.
But I did so with a heavy heart, for two main reasons:
1) I'm a passionate internationalist and Corbyn's half-hearted performance in both the Brexit Referendum and afterwards left me feeling very let down. He didn't reflect the views of the Party membership, the PLP, or the majority of Labour voters, and could have made the difference both before and after the Referendum, had he chosen to do so.
2) He was a very poor Parliamentary performer. He failed to win PMQs against May, and often appeared to struggle if required to cope with more than one topic of questions. He did not have the speed of thought to change tack, and, in my opinion, would simply not have coped with PMQs as Prime Minister. It would have been carnage.
I was happy with the policies, generally, as I was under Milliband, but not with the presentation, the weird personality cult nor the ability to perform when it mattered.
And then there were questions to be answered over anti-Semitism within Labour under Corbyn and of course plenty of mud being flung about the various comrades he had shared a platform with over the years. The latter with less substance than the former, in my opinion, but so much mud was being flung that at the least he looked naiive, at worst he was made to look like he condoned terrorist attacks on civilians (again, unfairly in my view, but the Press is mostly owned by Tory supporters and their picture editors do what they are told).
So he had to go after two General Election defeats. He should have gone after one, in my opinion, and then he might have been able to bring through a credible Left wing successor. By the time of the leadership election which Starmer won, Corbyn was damaged goods and received wisdom was that a change was needed.
But right now the whole of the progressive electorate needs to move heaven and earth to unseat the Government which has undermined the checks and balances on Executive power which have been at the heart of our "unwritten Constitution" (sic, because the past few years have demonstrated that we don't even have that) for centuries. And we need to bring in Proportional Representation to undercut the bias towards the Tories inherent in First Past the Post, accentuated by recent Tory gerrymandering and deliberate interference in the work of the Electoral Commission.
So we all need to bury the hatchet (or maybe that should be "Put down the ice pick"?) and Left, Soft Left, Left of Centre, Social Democrats, Greens and Liberals (heck, even decent Conservatives like Rory Stewart) need to work to reestablish a fair and functional political system that is trustworthy and dependable and doesn't allow ANY individual to put themselves above the law by, for example:
Breaking Electoral Commission guidelines on funding
Refusing to publish or acknowledge Electoral Commission report findings of fact
Refusing to publish House of Commons Committee reports
Illegally proroguing Parliament
Making "annoying" protest liable to 10 years in prison
Introducing huge amounts of legislation through Ministerial fiat, without reference to Parliament
Removing the important check on Ministerial power of Judicial Review
Giving the Home Secretary increased powers, without reference to Parliament or the Legal system, to remove an individual's citizenship
Announcing regulations through Press Conferences, rather than in Parliament
How anyone with any respect for law and order, or even basic fair play and decency, can vote Tory given the above (which is purely about the destruction of Parliamentary Sovereignty, and gaming of the Electoral System, and doesn't begin to cover Tory ineptitude or corruption in other areas) is quite beyond me.
We need to focus all fire on Johnson and co, and stop the infighting. Anything else is signing the death warrant for Parliamentary Democracy in this country.
The policy emphasis that is needed is the reformation of politics, rooting out of corruption and establishment of a fair electoral system which enfranchises everyone, enshrined in a Constitution. And that can only be achieved by a coalition approach. |
I don't disagree with most of that but just a couple of points:
With regards to the position on Brexit, Labour at the time also stood accused of abandoning Leave voters in the North if they came out entirely for Remain. I agree he was poor from a Remain perpsective but what was he meant to do? I actually think the more nuanced position Labour eventually took on it was the right one if not at all sexy or popular. See the deal, then vote on it seems entirely sensible to me.
As for parliamentary performance, I think that's a pretty weak argument. He's always been better as a backbencher but do many people care about PMQs etc outside of the bubble? I do agree with his presentation more generally though - it was always an issue in today's day and age.
For me, the real problem was his leadership being too inclusive. That manifesto was unfocused and tried to appease too many unions or sections of the party. Most were very good ideas but it ended up looking like an incoherent mess by the end.
I will vote Labour regardless but the attack on the left of the party right now is unwarranted, imo. At some point they have to realise our votes can't be taken for granted any more. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:13 - Jan 2 with 787 views | Herbivore |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:05 - Jan 2 by noggin |
Only in Britain and America would voters seeking socialist policies be labeled a cult. |
It's more the slavish devotion to Corbyn and the refusal to see his flaws that makes me point out the cultish nature of some posters on here. I'd have liked Labour to be even more socialist than they were under Corbyn so you're miles off if you think this is about my politics. [Post edited 2 Jan 2022 18:16]
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:16 - Jan 2 with 777 views | noggin |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:13 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
It's more the slavish devotion to Corbyn and the refusal to see his flaws that makes me point out the cultish nature of some posters on here. I'd have liked Labour to be even more socialist than they were under Corbyn so you're miles off if you think this is about my politics. [Post edited 2 Jan 2022 18:16]
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I'm pretty sure everyone who admitted to voting for Corbyn, has , over the years, highlighted his faults on here. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:17 - Jan 2 with 767 views | Darth_Koont |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:10 - Jan 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
If only all that New Labour/Remain energy had gone into promoting a more 'sensible' version of leaving along the Norway model rather than trying to overturn a democratic vote! Good to be reminded of where their real priorities were though. |
50 out of 52 seats Labour lost were Leave voting.
Massive own goal for people who said they wanted to get rid of the Tories and stay in Europe. Almost as if they were most interested in getting rid of social democratic policies ... | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:17 - Jan 2 with 763 views | footers |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:13 - Jan 2 by Herbivore |
It's more the slavish devotion to Corbyn and the refusal to see his flaws that makes me point out the cultish nature of some posters on here. I'd have liked Labour to be even more socialist than they were under Corbyn so you're miles off if you think this is about my politics. [Post edited 2 Jan 2022 18:16]
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I think we have to leave the Corbyn thing at the door, tbh. Doubt anyone, myself included, has ever had a slavish devotion to the allotment botherer. It was more the prospect of an actually progressive Labour Party than the man himself that was the issue.
He represented that break away from Blairism, and I was completely on board with that change of direction. Corbyn aside, I still think it's the brand of politics needed most now. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… (n/t) on 18:17 - Jan 2 with 764 views | giant_stow |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:16 - Jan 2 by noggin |
I'm pretty sure everyone who admitted to voting for Corbyn, has , over the years, highlighted his faults on here. |
Even dirty extreme centrists like me voted for Corbyn's labour. It would be nice if the left wing could hang in there and return the favour, despite their misgivings. [Post edited 2 Jan 2022 18:19]
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:17 - Jan 2 with 765 views | Herbivore |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:16 - Jan 2 by noggin |
I'm pretty sure everyone who admitted to voting for Corbyn, has , over the years, highlighted his faults on here. |
I can't agree with that. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:35 - Jan 2 with 714 views | Darth_Koont |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:17 - Jan 2 by footers |
I think we have to leave the Corbyn thing at the door, tbh. Doubt anyone, myself included, has ever had a slavish devotion to the allotment botherer. It was more the prospect of an actually progressive Labour Party than the man himself that was the issue.
He represented that break away from Blairism, and I was completely on board with that change of direction. Corbyn aside, I still think it's the brand of politics needed most now. |
Indeed. I was pretty clear from the start that I was interested in his policies and that he himself wasn’t the sort of leader to really carry that.
But he surprised me in 2017. He was actually much better with ordinary people than I gave him credit for and his passion for the issues facing the country was undeniable.
What followed as a character assassination was pretty sickening and amazingly disingenuous. On here and in the political bubble. But too much about him could be turned into a target for mudslinging. People made an almighty effort though and I worry for the UK with those forces still around.
So when Starmer put his hat in the ring pledging to use the previous policy platform as a foundation and to build unity, I thought this would be perfect and a way to bring the policies and necessary discussions back to the fore. So gutted and very angry that almost the exact opposite has happened.
I refuse to buy the notion that this deception, Starmer’s subsequent authoritarian and narrow management of the party and his centre-right pitch to the wider electorate were necessary or now desirable and pragmatic – for whom exactly? | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:44 - Jan 2 with 685 views | jeera |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:10 - Jan 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
If only all that New Labour/Remain energy had gone into promoting a more 'sensible' version of leaving along the Norway model rather than trying to overturn a democratic vote! Good to be reminded of where their real priorities were though. |
A democratic vote built on lies, if we could just bear that in mind. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 18:48 - Jan 2 with 675 views | Darth_Koont |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:44 - Jan 2 by jeera |
A democratic vote built on lies, if we could just bear that in mind. |
Indeed.
We are where we are because of lies, misrepresentations and half-truths from an unprecedentedly self-interested political and media class. | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 19:10 - Jan 2 with 613 views | tractordownsouth |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:10 - Jan 2 by BanksterDebtSlave |
If only all that New Labour/Remain energy had gone into promoting a more 'sensible' version of leaving along the Norway model rather than trying to overturn a democratic vote! Good to be reminded of where their real priorities were though. |
Biggest mistake was Labour not backing May’s deal once they got the concessions. |  |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 19:11 - Jan 2 with 607 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:44 - Jan 2 by jeera |
A democratic vote built on lies, if we could just bear that in mind. |
Aren't they all? | |
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| Bye bye Boris… on 19:15 - Jan 2 with 582 views | WD19 |
| Bye bye Boris… on 18:48 - Jan 2 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
We are where we are because of lies, misrepresentations and half-truths from an unprecedentedly self-interested political and media class. |
….and Corbyns schizophrenia on the topic. Don’t forget that. |  | | |
| Bye bye Boris… on 19:16 - Jan 2 with 581 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Bye bye Boris… on 19:10 - Jan 2 by tractordownsouth |
Biggest mistake was Labour not backing May’s deal once they got the concessions. |
I can't actually remember what her deal was but you may well be right. Would have killed off a Brexit motivated general election and pissed off her core vote! | |
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