| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? 20:16 - Jan 6 with 6628 views | Zapers |
Given that two jurors have been exposed for lying about their past.
Personally I feel she should be retried since it’s inconceivable that their own experience did not impact on their judgement, and possibly the judgement of other jurors.
I’m not in anyway sympathetic if she is definitely guilty, I’m just not so sure now given these revelations.
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:21 - Jan 6 with 3317 views | footers |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:16 - Jan 6 by Bluedicea |
True. It's more about trying to limit miscarriages of justice rather than exclude people. A victim of the same crime could potentially harbour grudges against the defendant and so not be honest in the assessment of facts, they also are potentially likely to suffer flashbacks or other feelings of anxiety or fear due to the nature of the evidence being quite graphic, so this protects them from harm and also acts as way that the juror cannot later claim the trial damaged them mentally as they agreed they had no strong views either way about the crime involved.
A side note. I was always puzzled by that, society rightly condemns certain crimes and most people have strong views on such. Yet a jury member has to have no strong opinion of the crime involved either way, to prove impartiality.
It's one way I have been told you can get out of jury service, whatever the crime is you're being asked about, write all criminals should be hanged, they will decline you for jury service because of the extreme views. |
Well, your views are balls because I was called to jury service a couple of years ago and was never asked anything. Where are you supposed to give an opinion exactly? They give you a letter and you turn up. That's it. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:21 - Jan 6 with 3316 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:14 - Jan 6 by eireblue |
That also creates a bias.
An all white jury, for instance, does not have the life experience to understand what is racist.
Happens quite a lot, people decide what isn’t racist or homophobic, when they aren’t the target of such abuse.
How can a member of the public, that has no knowledge of abuse, understand what it is like to be abused, and so assess the veracity of a witness.
If the entire jury was filled with people that had all suffered the same crime, and all of whom had not seen justice served, sure, that would more likely to be a bias jury.
A minority of jury members with relevant life experience, that seems perfectly reasonable. |
The jury has to decide the verdict only on the evidence presented during the trial. They are not supposed to consider anything else, including their own experiences of what they perceive to be similar situations.
Same reason they are forbidden to look at media reports or research relevant stuff on the internet during the trial. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:23 - Jan 6 with 3306 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:21 - Jan 6 by footers |
Well, your views are balls because I was called to jury service a couple of years ago and was never asked anything. Where are you supposed to give an opinion exactly? They give you a letter and you turn up. That's it. |
Depends on the nature and profile of the case. Also jury selection is more of a thing in the US than the UK. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:25 - Jan 6 with 3309 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:13 - Jan 6 by lowhouseblue |
the u.s. system of jury selection is bonkers. this is another example of it. |
When added to the party politicisation of prosecutors and judges, the whole thing becomes quite alarming. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:48 - Jan 6 with 3273 views | Bluedicea |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:21 - Jan 6 by footers |
Well, your views are balls because I was called to jury service a couple of years ago and was never asked anything. Where are you supposed to give an opinion exactly? They give you a letter and you turn up. That's it. |
When I did my jury service around 15 years ago, along with the letter inviting me to jury service was a form with several tick boxes and a large section to write additional notes. It had to be sent back with my confirmation.
I'm guessing in these more modern times you would have to fill in an online form, which you would have been directed to in the letter.
Although I don't advocate it, because being a juror is part of the social contract of civilisation, there are many ways out of jury service as it's not compulsory. |  |
| What is the use of knowing about everything else, when you do not yet know who you are. |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:59 - Jan 6 with 3259 views | eireblue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:21 - Jan 6 by Guthrum |
The jury has to decide the verdict only on the evidence presented during the trial. They are not supposed to consider anything else, including their own experiences of what they perceive to be similar situations.
Same reason they are forbidden to look at media reports or research relevant stuff on the internet during the trial. |
The evidence presented is very much the testimony of victims and witnesses?
The whole point of a jury is not an assessment by experts, but by amateurs that are reasonable.
Of course a jury is going to asses the veracity of people giving evidence.
How does a human assess another human, without it being based on the accumulation of their life experience? Different humans with different experiences will have a different opinion on other humans, and asses whether there is reasonable doubt.
It would create an inherent bias, if amateurs without any suitable life experience, were the only humans allowed in a jury, surely? |  | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:10 - Jan 6 with 3251 views | gtsb1966 |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:48 - Jan 6 by Bluedicea |
When I did my jury service around 15 years ago, along with the letter inviting me to jury service was a form with several tick boxes and a large section to write additional notes. It had to be sent back with my confirmation.
I'm guessing in these more modern times you would have to fill in an online form, which you would have been directed to in the letter.
Although I don't advocate it, because being a juror is part of the social contract of civilisation, there are many ways out of jury service as it's not compulsory. |
I got off jury service and I was sent the same form as you. I'm really not interested in it at all. In one of the boxes ,can't remember what the question was, I just said I had no interest at all and would go along with the majority just so the case ended quicker. That was in 1994. I've never been asked since thankfully. Obviously if I had been called I would have been fair but thankfully that excuse got me off it. |  | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? (n/t) on 22:11 - Jan 6 with 3247 views | galacticoblue |
[Post edited 6 Jan 2022 22:23]
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:15 - Jan 6 with 3234 views | footers |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:48 - Jan 6 by Bluedicea |
When I did my jury service around 15 years ago, along with the letter inviting me to jury service was a form with several tick boxes and a large section to write additional notes. It had to be sent back with my confirmation.
I'm guessing in these more modern times you would have to fill in an online form, which you would have been directed to in the letter.
Although I don't advocate it, because being a juror is part of the social contract of civilisation, there are many ways out of jury service as it's not compulsory. |
Nope. Not asked a thing. Told when and where to appear and that was that. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:23 - Jan 6 with 3220 views | WicklowBlue |
Short answer from my side:
A) Yes a retrial should be granted based off the US legal system in general. (Maybe going forward Jurors should have a media ban in place, and ensure they read the questions asked and held cupable if there are inaccuracies)
B) The result should be the same. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 22:24]
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:27 - Jan 6 with 3205 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 20:35 - Jan 6 by Ryorry |
On the basis that 2 jurors in the first trial were themselves survivors of sexual abuse? I thought it was just one, so another has presumably made the revelation.
Why shouldn't the jury have two such people involved? Jurors are comprised of people with life experience, & sadly, sexual abuse is not that uncommon. |
Indeed.
I read one of them talking about it and it was obvious that they understood the victims more than the average joe would. Having one or two jurors with that perspective is an absolute must for the sake of the jury discussion and deliberation.
In such a trial, you can get lawyered-up sociopaths who are very smooth against traumatised victims of abuse. Some empathy and understanding of the power imbalance that’s at the heart of abuse, and the difficulties of testifying about your own trauma, are vital.
I can also imagine there were jurors who didn’t initially understand how victims can be abused unless it was by physical force. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:30 - Jan 6 with 3191 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:14 - Jan 6 by eireblue |
That also creates a bias.
An all white jury, for instance, does not have the life experience to understand what is racist.
Happens quite a lot, people decide what isn’t racist or homophobic, when they aren’t the target of such abuse.
How can a member of the public, that has no knowledge of abuse, understand what it is like to be abused, and so assess the veracity of a witness.
If the entire jury was filled with people that had all suffered the same crime, and all of whom had not seen justice served, sure, that would more likely to be a bias jury.
A minority of jury members with relevant life experience, that seems perfectly reasonable. |
You already answered it. Agree 100%. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:50 - Jan 6 with 3165 views | Illinoisblue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:25 - Jan 6 by Guthrum |
When added to the party politicisation of prosecutors and judges, the whole thing becomes quite alarming. |
It is quite bizarre. I recall not long after moving here, around election time seeing signs in a small town saying “Vote Smith for Coroner”. You’d assume a coroner would be appointed on merit, suitability and experience, not voted into the position. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:15 - Jan 6 with 3144 views | Ryorry |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:09 - Jan 6 by Guthrum |
It's not to automatically exclude them, but to give the defence the information they need if they wish to lodge an objection to that person.
If the juror in question was asked whether they had had such an experience (which seems to have been the case) and was truthful in their response (which is in doubt), followed by neither the defence nor prosecution objecting to their sitting in the trial, then they are perfectly entitled to use what happened to them in changing the minds of the other members.
It all turns on how truthfully they completed the paperwork during the jury selection process. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 21:17]
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Well, it's certainly not the first time that some of us have fundamentally disagreed on how "just" the USA justice system might not be!
As I said earlier, & Eireblue & DK go on to say rather more eloquently, jurors should be a random representation of the broader community - neither prosecution nor defence lawyers should have the capacity to screen out people who they predict might vote in a way they don't like. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:19 - Jan 6 with 3141 views | bluelagos |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:15 - Jan 6 by Ryorry |
Well, it's certainly not the first time that some of us have fundamentally disagreed on how "just" the USA justice system might not be!
As I said earlier, & Eireblue & DK go on to say rather more eloquently, jurors should be a random representation of the broader community - neither prosecution nor defence lawyers should have the capacity to screen out people who they predict might vote in a way they don't like. |
Screening of jurors can happen in the UK system too tbf. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:31 - Jan 6 with 3127 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:15 - Jan 6 by Ryorry |
Well, it's certainly not the first time that some of us have fundamentally disagreed on how "just" the USA justice system might not be!
As I said earlier, & Eireblue & DK go on to say rather more eloquently, jurors should be a random representation of the broader community - neither prosecution nor defence lawyers should have the capacity to screen out people who they predict might vote in a way they don't like. |
That's just the US system. As I understand it, in the UK it's more concerned with showing you have no previous connection with the case (e.g. knowing someone who is involved) and, if sufficiently high profile, not having publicly expressed an opinion on the guilt or otherwise of the accused. in other words, to remove the possiblity of out-and-out bias. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:33 - Jan 6 with 3123 views | Ryorry |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:19 - Jan 6 by bluelagos |
Screening of jurors can happen in the UK system too tbf. |
Think someone said earlier it's more of a thing in the USA, but I fundamentally disagree with it wherever it happens. I can't remember individual's names, but seem to remember various historic cases where all white juries were deliberately picked for trials where defendants were black, eg. (one of those might have been the case of the Mangrove Nine in London, featured in the Small Axe dramas? 🤔but my memory could be faulty on that). | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:37 - Jan 6 with 3122 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:59 - Jan 6 by eireblue |
The evidence presented is very much the testimony of victims and witnesses?
The whole point of a jury is not an assessment by experts, but by amateurs that are reasonable.
Of course a jury is going to asses the veracity of people giving evidence.
How does a human assess another human, without it being based on the accumulation of their life experience? Different humans with different experiences will have a different opinion on other humans, and asses whether there is reasonable doubt.
It would create an inherent bias, if amateurs without any suitable life experience, were the only humans allowed in a jury, surely? |
The point is, this is specific experience relating to the case, rather than general ability to guess if someone is telling the truth. Under the US system, that is grounds for excluding a juror.
The question is actually about whether the individual lied on his form, thus undermining the whole selection procedure and thus the due process of the trial. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:37 - Jan 6 with 3121 views | Ryorry |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:31 - Jan 6 by Guthrum |
That's just the US system. As I understand it, in the UK it's more concerned with showing you have no previous connection with the case (e.g. knowing someone who is involved) and, if sufficiently high profile, not having publicly expressed an opinion on the guilt or otherwise of the accused. in other words, to remove the possiblity of out-and-out bias. |
Posted my 11.33pm reply before seeing yours here, but not having any previous connection with the case or opinion on it would be a fair enough requirement imho. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:40 - Jan 6 with 3128 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 22:23 - Jan 6 by WicklowBlue |
Short answer from my side:
A) Yes a retrial should be granted based off the US legal system in general. (Maybe going forward Jurors should have a media ban in place, and ensure they read the questions asked and held cupable if there are inaccuracies)
B) The result should be the same. [Post edited 6 Jan 2022 22:24]
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If that juror has lied on the form, then he has committed a criminal act of perjury. That's why he's been told to appoint an attorney - is likely to end up in the dock himself. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 00:33 - Jan 7 with 3076 views | WicklowBlue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:40 - Jan 6 by Guthrum |
If that juror has lied on the form, then he has committed a criminal act of perjury. That's why he's been told to appoint an attorney - is likely to end up in the dock himself. |
Totally agree!
Edit: And said juror(s) should burden some of the legal costs. [Post edited 7 Jan 2022 0:36]
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 00:36 - Jan 7 with 3074 views | eireblue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 23:37 - Jan 6 by Guthrum |
The point is, this is specific experience relating to the case, rather than general ability to guess if someone is telling the truth. Under the US system, that is grounds for excluding a juror.
The question is actually about whether the individual lied on his form, thus undermining the whole selection procedure and thus the due process of the trial. |
That is a point.
However I was more discussing the statement made by the OP
“Personally I feel she should be retried since it’s inconceivable that their own experience did not impact on their judgement, and possibly the judgement of other jurors.”
Equally likely that a bunch of Jurors that had zero experience of the grooming of young adults that had also been victims of abuse earlier in their lives, would reach a different and incorrect conclusion based on assessing what the witnesses were saying. | | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 01:12 - Jan 7 with 3044 views | Darth_Koont |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 00:36 - Jan 7 by eireblue |
That is a point.
However I was more discussing the statement made by the OP
“Personally I feel she should be retried since it’s inconceivable that their own experience did not impact on their judgement, and possibly the judgement of other jurors.”
Equally likely that a bunch of Jurors that had zero experience of the grooming of young adults that had also been victims of abuse earlier in their lives, would reach a different and incorrect conclusion based on assessing what the witnesses were saying. |
Exactly. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 07:17 - Jan 7 with 2927 views | solomon |
I’m not very clever or particularly well educated or indeed clued up on legal matters in any way, but is this the first step on a path that could possibly lead to the heat being taken of a certain prince of the realm? |  | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 08:24 - Jan 7 with 2892 views | Tangledupin_Blue |
If it can be shown that one or other of the jurors lied then yes, a retrial. The system has to be seen to be beyond reproach in as much that it is rigid in its adherence to the rules. |  |
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