| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? 20:16 - Jan 6 with 5032 views | Zapers |
Given that two jurors have been exposed for lying about their past.
Personally I feel she should be retried since it’s inconceivable that their own experience did not impact on their judgement, and possibly the judgement of other jurors.
I’m not in anyway sympathetic if she is definitely guilty, I’m just not so sure now given these revelations.
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 08:43 - Jan 7 with 865 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 00:36 - Jan 7 by eireblue |
That is a point.
However I was more discussing the statement made by the OP
“Personally I feel she should be retried since it’s inconceivable that their own experience did not impact on their judgement, and possibly the judgement of other jurors.”
Equally likely that a bunch of Jurors that had zero experience of the grooming of young adults that had also been victims of abuse earlier in their lives, would reach a different and incorrect conclusion based on assessing what the witnesses were saying. |
Indeed, that is the inherent jeopardy of trial by jury (and the plot of various films).
However, a decision by a panel of theoretically neutral non-experts is less open to abuse than using a single, state-appointed official (or, in the US, one elected along party political lines), albeit a person with considerable knowlege and experience in the field. Any flaws of individual jury members should roughly even themselves out among 12 people. Having an independent body returning the verdict, with direction and advice from the judge as a legal expert, is probably the best compromise we can hope for.
Problems which have occurred, such as all-white juries judging black defendants in racially-charged cases, are more down to flawed or corrupted administration of procedures than the system itself. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:09 - Jan 7 with 845 views | Charlie_pl_baxter |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 20:35 - Jan 6 by Ryorry |
On the basis that 2 jurors in the first trial were themselves survivors of sexual abuse? I thought it was just one, so another has presumably made the revelation.
Why shouldn't the jury have two such people involved? Jurors are comprised of people with life experience, & sadly, sexual abuse is not that uncommon. |
This. Not sure on the stats in the US but in this country 20% of women have experienced some form of sexual assault since the age of 16 (according to Rape Crisis). Pretty hard to get a jury that is both representative (i.e. 50% women) without at least one having experienced this. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:16 - Jan 7 with 843 views | BiGDonnie |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:48 - Jan 6 by Bluedicea |
When I did my jury service around 15 years ago, along with the letter inviting me to jury service was a form with several tick boxes and a large section to write additional notes. It had to be sent back with my confirmation.
I'm guessing in these more modern times you would have to fill in an online form, which you would have been directed to in the letter.
Although I don't advocate it, because being a juror is part of the social contract of civilisation, there are many ways out of jury service as it's not compulsory. |
Agreed. Get yourself nicked a couple of times and they won't ever ask you! |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:33 - Jan 7 with 827 views | Guthrum |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:09 - Jan 7 by Charlie_pl_baxter |
This. Not sure on the stats in the US but in this country 20% of women have experienced some form of sexual assault since the age of 16 (according to Rape Crisis). Pretty hard to get a jury that is both representative (i.e. 50% women) without at least one having experienced this. |
Anecdotally - and including things like being flashed, having your bottom grabbed or comments made by strangers in the street - I'd say 20% is a gross underestimate. I can't think of any woman I've spoken to on the subject who hasn't had something happen at least once in their lives.
Which is, frankly, apalling. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:35 - Jan 7 with 820 views | Radlett_blue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 20:17 - Jan 6 by BlueBadger |
Christ, people are DESPERATE for her to get off, aren't they? |
Sadly, this is the way the US justice system works. The rich find expensive lawyers who look for small technicalities which they can use for an appeal. Look at Bill Cosby, another p-o-s, 60 women alleged he had drugged and raped or sexually assaulted them. He still manages to get convictions overturned on technicalities & managed to get out of jail last year. Some nit-pickers may call this "the rule of law", but it's poor justice. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:55 - Jan 7 with 805 views | BloomBlue |
No she shouldn't.
The jury system isn’t perfect and while I don’t have any experience of the US model I’ve been on a UK jury 4 times in many years on this planet.
One case involved a sexual assault on a child by an adult and one of the jurors had experience of a similar situation. He was in a relationship where the daughter of the woman didn’t like him being with her mother or the prospect of her marrying another man, she wanted her mother and father to get back together. He said police had been involved but it never went to court as the daughter eventually admitted she had made up the story with the aim of splitting up his relationship with her mother. When we reached the point of deliberation of the court case he was initially viewing it from his situation ie the child is probably making up the story because she wants to break up the relationship same as happened to him, but as a jury we discussed the evidence yes there were times when he used his personal experience but there was no pushing from either side.
As I said the jury system isn't perfect but with 12 people it does (can) eliminate individuals with outside influence, having a retrial doesn't change that and a non jury can have the same problem
Yes jurors have to be honest, on one case when they were performing the final selection of the 12 one of the original 14 quickly raised her hand to say she knew the family of the defendant and was therefore removed from the final selection.
The trouble is as mentioned by others in todays media/social media world where stories are covered constantly even before a court case starts it's becoming more and more difficult in high profile cases to find a jury of 12 people who don't already have an opinion on the case. Conversely every jury I've been on the Judge always makes it clear your role as a jury is to look at the facts of the case as presented and not use outside opinions. Ultimately the jury system is the best format |  | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 10:05 - Jan 7 with 793 views | Pinewoodblue |
I’ve had the dubious pleasure of serving six times as a juror. They almost always are a mixed bag. Once, in Norwich, one member of the jury couldn’t read the card to be sworn in he had to repeat it line for line.
There are always those who want to take the lead and seek out being appointed foreman of the jury. If the individuals who mislead the court at jury selection ended up as foreman then there does need to be a retrial even though I’m sure the result would be the same.
Trouble is it would be difficult to find 12 people of sound mind with no preformed opinion on the case. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 10:11 - Jan 7 with 787 views | Radlett_blue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:55 - Jan 7 by BloomBlue |
No she shouldn't.
The jury system isn’t perfect and while I don’t have any experience of the US model I’ve been on a UK jury 4 times in many years on this planet.
One case involved a sexual assault on a child by an adult and one of the jurors had experience of a similar situation. He was in a relationship where the daughter of the woman didn’t like him being with her mother or the prospect of her marrying another man, she wanted her mother and father to get back together. He said police had been involved but it never went to court as the daughter eventually admitted she had made up the story with the aim of splitting up his relationship with her mother. When we reached the point of deliberation of the court case he was initially viewing it from his situation ie the child is probably making up the story because she wants to break up the relationship same as happened to him, but as a jury we discussed the evidence yes there were times when he used his personal experience but there was no pushing from either side.
As I said the jury system isn't perfect but with 12 people it does (can) eliminate individuals with outside influence, having a retrial doesn't change that and a non jury can have the same problem
Yes jurors have to be honest, on one case when they were performing the final selection of the 12 one of the original 14 quickly raised her hand to say she knew the family of the defendant and was therefore removed from the final selection.
The trouble is as mentioned by others in todays media/social media world where stories are covered constantly even before a court case starts it's becoming more and more difficult in high profile cases to find a jury of 12 people who don't already have an opinion on the case. Conversely every jury I've been on the Judge always makes it clear your role as a jury is to look at the facts of the case as presented and not use outside opinions. Ultimately the jury system is the best format |
Indeed, most jurors will have some sort of preconceived opinion on sex crimes etc. The important thing is that they don't have preconceived opinions about the accused. These appeals always seem to work in favour of the accused or convicted. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 10:11 - Jan 7 with 789 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 20:17 - Jan 6 by BlueBadger |
Christ, people are DESPERATE for her to get off, aren't they? |
I hope the vile sex trafficker and paedo enabler spends the rest of her life in a cell.
However, as has been oft quoted from the Secret Barrister over the past couple of days; Justice does not always equate to “what I personally agree with”.
Justice has to be seen to be done. Maxwell has been convicted in a US court. The US judicial system has a process called voir dire. The purpose of voir dire is to exclude from the jury people who may not be able to decide the case fairly.
If two of the jury members have omitted details of historical sexual abuse when asked on a form, then Maxwell’s defence team have every right to appeal a mistrial.
I may not like it. You may not like it. But the people we should be annoyed at are the two jurors who have possibly gifted Maxwell another trial. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 10:32 - Jan 7 with 773 views | Charlie_pl_baxter |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 09:33 - Jan 7 by Guthrum |
Anecdotally - and including things like being flashed, having your bottom grabbed or comments made by strangers in the street - I'd say 20% is a gross underestimate. I can't think of any woman I've spoken to on the subject who hasn't had something happen at least once in their lives.
Which is, frankly, apalling. |
Completely agree. I believe the figure for sexual harassment is more like 97%, 20% was for sexual assault. Not sure what the defining line is between the two though. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 11:07 - Jan 7 with 736 views | Radlett_blue |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 10:32 - Jan 7 by Charlie_pl_baxter |
Completely agree. I believe the figure for sexual harassment is more like 97%, 20% was for sexual assault. Not sure what the defining line is between the two though. |
Proving sexual harassment or sexual assault beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law is near impossible without 3rd party evidence or a string of credible complainants. Hence very few of these cases actually make it to court, which is unsurprising as the CPS don't want to waste resources on unwinnable cases. | |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 11:43 - Jan 7 with 728 views | blueasfook |
My conspiracy theory alarm is ringing loudly on this one.
All very dodgy. I am sure she will be acquitted at a retrial too.
How very convenient. |  |
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| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 12:28 - Jan 7 with 690 views | bluestandard |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 21:14 - Jan 6 by eireblue |
That also creates a bias.
An all white jury, for instance, does not have the life experience to understand what is racist.
Happens quite a lot, people decide what isn’t racist or homophobic, when they aren’t the target of such abuse.
How can a member of the public, that has no knowledge of abuse, understand what it is like to be abused, and so assess the veracity of a witness.
If the entire jury was filled with people that had all suffered the same crime, and all of whom had not seen justice served, sure, that would more likely to be a bias jury.
A minority of jury members with relevant life experience, that seems perfectly reasonable. |
I understand the logic here entirely. However, my admittedly very basic understanding of the psychology behind this is that certain types of abuse, particularly sexual abuse, can have such a profound impact on a person (one psychologist I know describes the impact as occurring almost on a 'cellular level'), that achieving impartiality is at best against the odds. I have no firm opinion on this by the way, and we are of course treading into very contentious waters! | | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 13:01 - Jan 7 with 657 views | Zapers |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 10:11 - Jan 7 by GlasgowBlue |
I hope the vile sex trafficker and paedo enabler spends the rest of her life in a cell.
However, as has been oft quoted from the Secret Barrister over the past couple of days; Justice does not always equate to “what I personally agree with”.
Justice has to be seen to be done. Maxwell has been convicted in a US court. The US judicial system has a process called voir dire. The purpose of voir dire is to exclude from the jury people who may not be able to decide the case fairly.
If two of the jury members have omitted details of historical sexual abuse when asked on a form, then Maxwell’s defence team have every right to appeal a mistrial.
I may not like it. You may not like it. But the people we should be annoyed at are the two jurors who have possibly gifted Maxwell another trial. |
I'm in total agreement GB. | | | |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 15:27 - Jan 7 with 617 views | Ryorry |
| Do people feel Ghislaine Maxwell should be retried? on 12:28 - Jan 7 by bluestandard |
I understand the logic here entirely. However, my admittedly very basic understanding of the psychology behind this is that certain types of abuse, particularly sexual abuse, can have such a profound impact on a person (one psychologist I know describes the impact as occurring almost on a 'cellular level'), that achieving impartiality is at best against the odds. I have no firm opinion on this by the way, and we are of course treading into very contentious waters! |
Correct - every last graphic detail & memory of serious sexual assault never goes away, & can cause distress even after several decades.
As per the numbers already cited by others though, aiming to achieve a non-representative jury of 12 people who've never experienced it, is in itself aiming to achieve a biased jury, imho.
Not quibbling about people who personally know one or more of those involved, or have family members/friends who do - they should obviously be ruled out. |  |
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