| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine 12:38 - Mar 6 with 3646 views | pointofblue |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/the-more-ukraine-resists-t
For once I agree with the politicians, any sign of this will drag Europe into World War III. I don’t even know if NATO will have to implement it; the threat may be enough for Putin to respond.
No idea what the next step is though. We can close the sanction loopholes and accept the financial pain this will result in for ourselves and keep delivering military aid to Ukraine, which Russia seems to be turning a blind eye to for some reason, but will it be enough? And when will Putin decide to stop, if he does manage to turn Ukraine into a puppet state? |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:39 - Mar 6 with 815 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:06 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont |
Yes you can.
You can always let Putin claim “victory” to avoid further escalation and bring about some form of ceasefire. Then get into the inevitable negotiation and settlement to remove ourselves – and the Ukrainian people most of all – from further and exponentially increasing catastrophe.
We’ve made so many mistakes with respect to Putin and also Ukraine over the years. Doubling down now that it’s reached this breaking point is utterly foolhardy and unimaginably dangerous for everyone. |
That would involve chucking Ukraine under the bus. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:42 - Mar 6 with 825 views | ZXBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:39 - Mar 6 by GlasgowBlue |
That would involve chucking Ukraine under the bus. |
Indeed. Its the Corbyn approach. Great in principle, but totally disregarding the real world. | | | |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:44 - Mar 6 with 824 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:03 - Mar 6 by giant_stow |
Agreed (for the little its worth!).
Does anyone remember that doc on bbc which was like war game around a possible nuclear war with Russia? It had real people who'd been on the fringes of such decisions. The escalation was increased up to the point in the game where Russians had fired a salvo of nukes at the UK - the UK war panel decided against a retaliatory strike as it was simply too late to save Britain and not worth ending the world over. I can't remember what it was called. Even if it was just a game/ excercise / tv show, I think it showed the sort of thinking that those in power might explore.
Edit: think was the show: https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/proginfo/2016/05/inside-the-war-room
[Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:01]
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I should think there's been a zillion scenarios run through many times.
I wonder how accurate the intel is on Russia's capability and the locations of their missiles etc.
It seems to be common knowledge where ours are, assuming it's not all false and the Trident subs are cardboard and the real ones located somewhere else. Do we have others land based too?
I wonder how the scenario has gone where the US tries to shoot them en route over sea. In a multi-pronged attack they'd be too tied up to help us so what, if anything, do we have in place here?
And once again, where, if it all kicks off, is the safest place to pitch my tent? |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:56 - Mar 6 with 795 views | lowhouseblue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:42 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue |
Indeed. Its the Corbyn approach. Great in principle, but totally disregarding the real world. |
appeasement with putin won't work. he will see it as weakness and an opportunity. surely that's been conclusively demonstrated. the only way forward in the short- to medium-term is permanent sanctions, a return to the cold war, and something close to the iron curtain. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:58 - Mar 6 with 790 views | giant_stow |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:44 - Mar 6 by jeera |
I should think there's been a zillion scenarios run through many times.
I wonder how accurate the intel is on Russia's capability and the locations of their missiles etc.
It seems to be common knowledge where ours are, assuming it's not all false and the Trident subs are cardboard and the real ones located somewhere else. Do we have others land based too?
I wonder how the scenario has gone where the US tries to shoot them en route over sea. In a multi-pronged attack they'd be too tied up to help us so what, if anything, do we have in place here?
And once again, where, if it all kicks off, is the safest place to pitch my tent? |
Re where their weapons are, I read something saying all the nuclear warheads are held somewhere centrally, meaning that it's time to get nervous if those warheads are married up to rockets (the implication was that we'd know if that were happening.) |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:01 - Mar 6 with 768 views | positivity |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:44 - Mar 6 by jeera |
I should think there's been a zillion scenarios run through many times.
I wonder how accurate the intel is on Russia's capability and the locations of their missiles etc.
It seems to be common knowledge where ours are, assuming it's not all false and the Trident subs are cardboard and the real ones located somewhere else. Do we have others land based too?
I wonder how the scenario has gone where the US tries to shoot them en route over sea. In a multi-pronged attack they'd be too tied up to help us so what, if anything, do we have in place here?
And once again, where, if it all kicks off, is the safest place to pitch my tent? |
new zealand | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:01 - Mar 6 with 768 views | J2BLUE |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:44 - Mar 6 by jeera |
I should think there's been a zillion scenarios run through many times.
I wonder how accurate the intel is on Russia's capability and the locations of their missiles etc.
It seems to be common knowledge where ours are, assuming it's not all false and the Trident subs are cardboard and the real ones located somewhere else. Do we have others land based too?
I wonder how the scenario has gone where the US tries to shoot them en route over sea. In a multi-pronged attack they'd be too tied up to help us so what, if anything, do we have in place here?
And once again, where, if it all kicks off, is the safest place to pitch my tent? |
I think one of the islands is probably your best bet. I'm guessing but it would make sense. One that isn't too near a major city. Not sure if the Channel Islands are far enough from Portsmouth? Maybe one of the Scottish islands? Or maybe Switzerland. No, I don't think Switzerland is an ireland but it was recently described as the "hole in the doughnut".
Must be quite nice actually if you have ridiculous wealth to look around the world and cherry pick where you can ride out WW3. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:06 - Mar 6 with 747 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:01 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE |
I think one of the islands is probably your best bet. I'm guessing but it would make sense. One that isn't too near a major city. Not sure if the Channel Islands are far enough from Portsmouth? Maybe one of the Scottish islands? Or maybe Switzerland. No, I don't think Switzerland is an ireland but it was recently described as the "hole in the doughnut".
Must be quite nice actually if you have ridiculous wealth to look around the world and cherry pick where you can ride out WW3. |
If I had access to ridiculous wealth I wouldn't be reliant on a tent.
Whilst we're at it, what's the best material do you think? I appreciate no tent would withstand a blast, but you know, looking forwards after that; maybe a bit of acid rain, that kind of thing.
The location has to be Britain I'm afraid.
I might try to reconnect with Zombies at some point. He might have a shed or whatever one of those Scottish shack things are called.
Does Wales have anything worth blowing up? They don't like us though do they. Because of Edward the 1st for goodness' sake! I never even met the man. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:10 - Mar 6 with 740 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 15:22 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue |
You cant de escalate with someone intent on conquest. |
You have to hold out the offer of de-escalation. The purpose of these sanctions is to force Putin to halt and reverse his invasion, not to punish him permanently for having done so. Otherwise there is no actual incentive for him to stop until he's got what he wants.
If there are negotiations between the two sides, Western sanctions have to be one of the bargaining chips, which may need to be given up in order to wring concessions from Moscow. Especially if the situation is such that Ukraine has lost the war and has nothing else left in their hand.
Moreover, escalation has to be handled carefully. A NFZ is not a small step, it is pretty much equivalent to us declaring war on Russia. Pouring weapons into the country is already pretty heavy duty (we are thereby enabling the killing of more Russians). |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:13 - Mar 6 with 733 views | positivity |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:06 - Mar 6 by jeera |
If I had access to ridiculous wealth I wouldn't be reliant on a tent.
Whilst we're at it, what's the best material do you think? I appreciate no tent would withstand a blast, but you know, looking forwards after that; maybe a bit of acid rain, that kind of thing.
The location has to be Britain I'm afraid.
I might try to reconnect with Zombies at some point. He might have a shed or whatever one of those Scottish shack things are called.
Does Wales have anything worth blowing up? They don't like us though do they. Because of Edward the 1st for goodness' sake! I never even met the man. |
i think there'll be a lot of us applying for wwz's bothy... | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:14 - Mar 6 with 733 views | J2BLUE |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:06 - Mar 6 by jeera |
If I had access to ridiculous wealth I wouldn't be reliant on a tent.
Whilst we're at it, what's the best material do you think? I appreciate no tent would withstand a blast, but you know, looking forwards after that; maybe a bit of acid rain, that kind of thing.
The location has to be Britain I'm afraid.
I might try to reconnect with Zombies at some point. He might have a shed or whatever one of those Scottish shack things are called.
Does Wales have anything worth blowing up? They don't like us though do they. Because of Edward the 1st for goodness' sake! I never even met the man. |
Jaywick? They'll assume it's already been nuked. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:16 - Mar 6 with 720 views | ZXBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:10 - Mar 6 by Guthrum |
You have to hold out the offer of de-escalation. The purpose of these sanctions is to force Putin to halt and reverse his invasion, not to punish him permanently for having done so. Otherwise there is no actual incentive for him to stop until he's got what he wants.
If there are negotiations between the two sides, Western sanctions have to be one of the bargaining chips, which may need to be given up in order to wring concessions from Moscow. Especially if the situation is such that Ukraine has lost the war and has nothing else left in their hand.
Moreover, escalation has to be handled carefully. A NFZ is not a small step, it is pretty much equivalent to us declaring war on Russia. Pouring weapons into the country is already pretty heavy duty (we are thereby enabling the killing of more Russians). |
Well of course. | | | |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:16 - Mar 6 with 718 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:13 - Mar 6 by positivity |
i think there'll be a lot of us applying for wwz's bothy... |
I don't want to get intimate with him.
I just want to borrow his shed. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:18 - Mar 6 with 705 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:14 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE |
Jaywick? They'll assume it's already been nuked. |
I'm not sure it would be safe there either way. [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:18]
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:23 - Mar 6 with 693 views | J2BLUE |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:18 - Mar 6 by jeera |
I'm not sure it would be safe there either way. [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:18]
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Moon on a stick | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:29 - Mar 6 with 684 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:10 - Mar 6 by Guthrum |
You have to hold out the offer of de-escalation. The purpose of these sanctions is to force Putin to halt and reverse his invasion, not to punish him permanently for having done so. Otherwise there is no actual incentive for him to stop until he's got what he wants.
If there are negotiations between the two sides, Western sanctions have to be one of the bargaining chips, which may need to be given up in order to wring concessions from Moscow. Especially if the situation is such that Ukraine has lost the war and has nothing else left in their hand.
Moreover, escalation has to be handled carefully. A NFZ is not a small step, it is pretty much equivalent to us declaring war on Russia. Pouring weapons into the country is already pretty heavy duty (we are thereby enabling the killing of more Russians). |
Do you reckon it's possible, (even likely), NATO already has troops involved in Ukrainian uniform?
Or is that in makin' it up territory do you think? [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:30]
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:30 - Mar 6 with 673 views | Darth_Koont |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:39 - Mar 6 by GlasgowBlue |
That would involve chucking Ukraine under the bus. |
We’ve already done that. This is trying to get the bus to reverse and get them out. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:33 - Mar 6 with 664 views | ZXBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:30 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont |
We’ve already done that. This is trying to get the bus to reverse and get them out. |
I am all ears. What do we do, in the face of a psychotic dictator who is determined to have control over his nation's old Empire and prepared to use all means to do so? | | | |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:36 - Mar 6 with 651 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:29 - Mar 6 by jeera |
Do you reckon it's possible, (even likely), NATO already has troops involved in Ukrainian uniform?
Or is that in makin' it up territory do you think? [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:30]
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I'm pretty sure that's not happening (tho there may be a few in a volunteer capacity, purely as private individuals). Certainly not in direct combat. That would be asking for trouble. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:38 - Mar 6 with 645 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:29 - Mar 6 by jeera |
Do you reckon it's possible, (even likely), NATO already has troops involved in Ukrainian uniform?
Or is that in makin' it up territory do you think? [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 18:30]
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I know everyone is desperate for us in the West to be doing something more positive and immediate to save the Ukrainians. But short of declaring war on Russia, we can't.
Sanctions and diplomatic pressure are the only tools we have. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:39 - Mar 6 with 643 views | lowhouseblue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:33 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue |
I am all ears. What do we do, in the face of a psychotic dictator who is determined to have control over his nation's old Empire and prepared to use all means to do so? |
sadly, we draw a line in the sand, we spend more on defence, and we wait for the putin regime to be worn down by economic measures. it will come more quickly if we stop buying their gas etc. before that putin won't be negotiated out of ukraine in any meaningful sense - eg the restoration of free elections. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:40 - Mar 6 with 637 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:36 - Mar 6 by Guthrum |
I'm pretty sure that's not happening (tho there may be a few in a volunteer capacity, purely as private individuals). Certainly not in direct combat. That would be asking for trouble. |
Yes there was a piece somewhere on US vets wanting to get involved wasn't there?
I don't know how that would work logistically. I suppose fly in to a neighbouring country and then try to get across the border. But in order to get to a place of action where they would be of use would take some planning and coordination the other end. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:42 - Mar 6 with 626 views | ThisIsMyUsername |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:36 - Mar 6 by Guthrum |
I'm pretty sure that's not happening (tho there may be a few in a volunteer capacity, purely as private individuals). Certainly not in direct combat. That would be asking for trouble. |
Are UKSF (as well as other NATO countries' SFs) likely to unofficially be on the ground (with Putin's theoretical knowledge of the fact) or is that also tantamount to a declaration of war and therefore not going to be the case? |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:50 - Mar 6 with 605 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:42 - Mar 6 by ThisIsMyUsername |
Are UKSF (as well as other NATO countries' SFs) likely to unofficially be on the ground (with Putin's theoretical knowledge of the fact) or is that also tantamount to a declaration of war and therefore not going to be the case? |
Pretty sure that's not the case. At most strictly as security for remaining diplomats.
If Putin knew we had troops involved, he would not keep quiet about it. Would allow him to make a whole new range of threats. Probably also upset the Chinese - who are keen on no further escalation - which would in turn complicate diplomatic attempts to get them at all onside. | |
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