| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine 12:38 - Mar 6 with 3645 views | pointofblue |
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/06/the-more-ukraine-resists-t
For once I agree with the politicians, any sign of this will drag Europe into World War III. I don’t even know if NATO will have to implement it; the threat may be enough for Putin to respond.
No idea what the next step is though. We can close the sanction loopholes and accept the financial pain this will result in for ourselves and keep delivering military aid to Ukraine, which Russia seems to be turning a blind eye to for some reason, but will it be enough? And when will Putin decide to stop, if he does manage to turn Ukraine into a puppet state? |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:54 - Mar 6 with 763 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:40 - Mar 6 by jeera |
Yes there was a piece somewhere on US vets wanting to get involved wasn't there?
I don't know how that would work logistically. I suppose fly in to a neighbouring country and then try to get across the border. But in order to get to a place of action where they would be of use would take some planning and coordination the other end. |
Travel to Ukraine and join their army. About the only way of doing it. Kyiv has (at least theoretically) set up a structure for units of foreign volunteers. However, language would be an issue. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:04 - Mar 6 with 749 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 17:58 - Mar 6 by giant_stow |
Re where their weapons are, I read something saying all the nuclear warheads are held somewhere centrally, meaning that it's time to get nervous if those warheads are married up to rockets (the implication was that we'd know if that were happening.) |
A certain portion are in storage, but there are more than enough set up and ready to use at little or no notice.
If someone notices all the mobile launcher vehicles suddenly dispersing out into the countryside, then it might be time to get alarmed. But some of them will be anyway. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:16 - Mar 6 with 732 views | Guthrum |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:39 - Mar 6 by lowhouseblue |
sadly, we draw a line in the sand, we spend more on defence, and we wait for the putin regime to be worn down by economic measures. it will come more quickly if we stop buying their gas etc. before that putin won't be negotiated out of ukraine in any meaningful sense - eg the restoration of free elections. |
Or we wait for him to die and hope the new bloke has different ideas. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:41 - Mar 6 with 697 views | Ryorry |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:33 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue |
I am all ears. What do we do, in the face of a psychotic dictator who is determined to have control over his nation's old Empire and prepared to use all means to do so? |
Offering him some kind of face-saving climb down, particularly for his home audience (I think it's been described as ""a ladder down") would be absolutely essential.
This is a war of psychology as much as anything. We cannot risk doing anything which ramps up the military side, because what do terrorists do when they're cornered? Exactly.
I might be wrong, but what I think DK had in mind, & why I agreed with him, is that we/the west/free world needs to find a way of *appearing* to give Putin something he wants, without *actually* giving it to him. We need to find someone to negotiate with him who he has at least some degree of respect for. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:52 - Mar 6 with 672 views | ZXBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:41 - Mar 6 by Ryorry |
Offering him some kind of face-saving climb down, particularly for his home audience (I think it's been described as ""a ladder down") would be absolutely essential.
This is a war of psychology as much as anything. We cannot risk doing anything which ramps up the military side, because what do terrorists do when they're cornered? Exactly.
I might be wrong, but what I think DK had in mind, & why I agreed with him, is that we/the west/free world needs to find a way of *appearing* to give Putin something he wants, without *actually* giving it to him. We need to find someone to negotiate with him who he has at least some degree of respect for. |
An off ramp is essential. But I don't think he is actually interested in one. He has this belief int he supremacy of mother russia, its entitlement to its empire, and a belief that the west is weak and will not take the pain needed to oppose him. | | | |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:15 - Mar 6 with 644 views | Darth_Koont |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:41 - Mar 6 by Ryorry |
Offering him some kind of face-saving climb down, particularly for his home audience (I think it's been described as ""a ladder down") would be absolutely essential.
This is a war of psychology as much as anything. We cannot risk doing anything which ramps up the military side, because what do terrorists do when they're cornered? Exactly.
I might be wrong, but what I think DK had in mind, & why I agreed with him, is that we/the west/free world needs to find a way of *appearing* to give Putin something he wants, without *actually* giving it to him. We need to find someone to negotiate with him who he has at least some degree of respect for. |
Pretty much. Someone can “win” eventually but many thousands, possibly a lot more, will die for that.
If we can get Putin to the table by any means we should. And then we’ve got a chance to save a lot of people while giving Putin a cosmetic victory that he can use domestically and while we work on a more lasting and just peace for the people of Ukraine.
It’s a crap situation but it’s about being wise now rather than making some supposed moral point that risks killing more people. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:25 - Mar 6 with 625 views | ZXBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:15 - Mar 6 by Darth_Koont |
Pretty much. Someone can “win” eventually but many thousands, possibly a lot more, will die for that.
If we can get Putin to the table by any means we should. And then we’ve got a chance to save a lot of people while giving Putin a cosmetic victory that he can use domestically and while we work on a more lasting and just peace for the people of Ukraine.
It’s a crap situation but it’s about being wise now rather than making some supposed moral point that risks killing more people. |
I fear that your assumption that offering a cosmetic victory will work, is flawed. He is psychotic but not stupid. He does not appear interested in a cosmetic victory. He wants a legacy. | | | |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:26 - Mar 6 with 625 views | chicoazul |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 12:40 - Mar 6 by J2BLUE |
They have a good analyst on Sky who points out that you have to attack their anti aircraft weapons on the ground and shoot down Russian planes.
People seem to think we declare a no fly zone and Russia will say ok, fair play. |
It’s completely insane. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:32 - Mar 6 with 621 views | chicoazul |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:25 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue |
I fear that your assumption that offering a cosmetic victory will work, is flawed. He is psychotic but not stupid. He does not appear interested in a cosmetic victory. He wants a legacy. |
I don’t know if he is “not stupid”. He is bankrupting and destroying his own economy. | |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:39 - Mar 6 with 611 views | MVBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 19:52 - Mar 6 by ZXBlue |
An off ramp is essential. But I don't think he is actually interested in one. He has this belief int he supremacy of mother russia, its entitlement to its empire, and a belief that the west is weak and will not take the pain needed to oppose him. |
A Loughborough University analyst on Sky news proffered what I have been thinking, that Putin has been planning this particular war/invasion for 10 years. He has been performing a wide strategy over that time to enable it.
Another thought in how this ends has come into my mind that it could be like the Korea conflict that divided the country in half, and also involved nuclear threats apparently. Other wars to compare it to- Syria, Russia got stuck in there, possibly to gain battle experience in the use of air to ground missile and artillery urban warfare. The Bosnian war, the last war in Europe that got bloody and messy, protracted fighting, bombed cities and snipers taking pot shots at citizens. [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 20:40]
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:59 - Mar 6 with 588 views | jeera |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:39 - Mar 6 by MVBlue |
A Loughborough University analyst on Sky news proffered what I have been thinking, that Putin has been planning this particular war/invasion for 10 years. He has been performing a wide strategy over that time to enable it.
Another thought in how this ends has come into my mind that it could be like the Korea conflict that divided the country in half, and also involved nuclear threats apparently. Other wars to compare it to- Syria, Russia got stuck in there, possibly to gain battle experience in the use of air to ground missile and artillery urban warfare. The Bosnian war, the last war in Europe that got bloody and messy, protracted fighting, bombed cities and snipers taking pot shots at citizens. [Post edited 6 Mar 2022 20:40]
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"A Loughborough University analyst on Sky news proffered what I have been thinking, that Putin has been planning this particular war/invasion for 10 years. He has been performing a wide strategy over that time to enable it."
I'd be surprised if anyone thought otherwise to be honest. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 21:11 - Mar 6 with 585 views | ZXBlue |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 20:32 - Mar 6 by chicoazul |
I don’t know if he is “not stupid”. He is bankrupting and destroying his own economy. |
He is takign what he considers his. | | | |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 07:27 - Mar 7 with 489 views | Kropotkin123 |
He has already said sanctions are an act of war.
USA are speaking to Poland about backfilling their planes, if they want to give the to Ukraine.
I don't think people in power would allow Putin to launch nuclear weapons, as they know it will result in their deaths too.
I think we should join the war. Russian military forces are clearly nowhere near the standard we expected them to be at. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 07:48 - Mar 7 with 471 views | hype313 |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 07:27 - Mar 7 by Kropotkin123 |
He has already said sanctions are an act of war.
USA are speaking to Poland about backfilling their planes, if they want to give the to Ukraine.
I don't think people in power would allow Putin to launch nuclear weapons, as they know it will result in their deaths too.
I think we should join the war. Russian military forces are clearly nowhere near the standard we expected them to be at. |
He's going to run out if money very very soon, that might the key to unlocking all this, and at least get him to the table. |  |
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 09:35 - Mar 7 with 419 views | Churchman |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 18:38 - Mar 6 by Guthrum |
I know everyone is desperate for us in the West to be doing something more positive and immediate to save the Ukrainians. But short of declaring war on Russia, we can't.
Sanctions and diplomatic pressure are the only tools we have. |
This is where we are. If a no fly zone was to have been put in it would only have had a chance of working if the Russia had been told before they invaded it would be imposed the moment they stepped over the border.
The other factor here is that the west has no capability to do anything militarily apart from the US. And there’s no way on earth the US was going to stick their oar in this one - and I don’t blame them tbh.
The RAF has just 21 F35s and 135 Eurofighters. How many of these are operational, I’m not sure. France has a modern military but has holes in it such as a shortage of missiles. Germany as of 2019 had 4 operational typhoons. The rest were either unserviceable or in the case of 7 had no missiles. I don’t think the situation has improved much in the past couple of years. For comparison In 1989 the RAF possessed around 850 fighters including Tornados, Jaguars, Phantoms, Harriers and Buccaneers.
Given the army (now a militia with obsolete Challenger 2 tanks and artillery and little logistical support) is in an ever poorer state, the tories have done a great job letting U.K. defence dribble away, halving it in the last ten years alone.
The countries of Europe have a long way to go if they are ever going to have the capability of defending themselves or taking meaningful part in NFZs. Part of that will be how they work together and who pays. Given Macron’s hatred of the U.K. cooperation between U.K. and France is a long way off. Putin knows all this and much much more and has a large window to take what he wants, assuming the US keeps itself to itself. [Post edited 7 Mar 2022 10:15]
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| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 16:54 - Mar 7 with 346 views | positivity |
| Guardian column calling for a no fly zone threat over Ukraine on 07:48 - Mar 7 by hype313 |
He's going to run out if money very very soon, that might the key to unlocking all this, and at least get him to the table. |
i don't know if he'll run out of money that quick, they have massive reserves.
what they might run out of is morale, both of the army and the populus, again sanctions are better for increasing this rather than engaging militarily | |
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