| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. 00:08 - Jun 14 with 6481 views | bluelagos |
Wondering if the twtd collective would extend that courtesy to members to the monarchy?
In the unlikely event of my ever meeting the Queen would it be disrepectful to refuse to refer to her as "Your majesty" and instead call her "Lizzy"?
Edited for sh1t grammar
[Post edited 14 Jun 2022 15:21]
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 22:08 - Jun 14 with 1015 views | StevieH |
Mrs Regina ? |  | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 22:09 - Jun 14 with 1014 views | unbelievablue |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 22:00 - Jun 14 by J2BLUE |
What if we don't agree with your post?
Not being awkward but genuinely have never had any issues calling women of that age by their first name. Never been an issue. Can't imagine any of the 70+ women in the family or my nan's friends etc would put up with being called Mrs *insert surname* for long.
Is it an area of the country thing? |
I tend to use Mr/Mrs for people over a certain age when I first meet them (context dependent, obviously - never done that at work). My assumption is that they'll offer their first name instead, which they always do. Begs the question 'why bother?' I guess. |  |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 22:15 - Jun 14 with 984 views | Ryorry |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 22:00 - Jun 14 by J2BLUE |
What if we don't agree with your post?
Not being awkward but genuinely have never had any issues calling women of that age by their first name. Never been an issue. Can't imagine any of the 70+ women in the family or my nan's friends etc would put up with being called Mrs *insert surname* for long.
Is it an area of the country thing? |
Looks like again you haven't read my reply carefully enough, or misread what I said.
Which was "if meeting an over-70 for the first time, unless invited by them to do so" |  |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 04:39 - Jun 15 with 910 views | J2BLUE |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 22:15 - Jun 14 by Ryorry |
Looks like again you haven't read my reply carefully enough, or misread what I said.
Which was "if meeting an over-70 for the first time, unless invited by them to do so" |
You are hard work sometimes.
Where in my post did I say I would do anything differently if it was the first time?
If they made an issue of it I would just think they were pathetic and pompous and probably would y engage with them any further. |  |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 08:11 - Jun 15 with 867 views | GlasgowBlue |
The thread title suggests that people should have the right to chose their own pronouns but the actual post suggests that you should chose their pronouns for them. |  |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 09:37 - Jun 15 with 799 views | Ryorry |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 04:39 - Jun 15 by J2BLUE |
You are hard work sometimes.
Where in my post did I say I would do anything differently if it was the first time?
If they made an issue of it I would just think they were pathetic and pompous and probably would y engage with them any further. |
Jeezus H, you seemed to have got it first time round with your jokey calling me Dave.
Since then, your computer seems to have reset itself to a foreign language, as everything I wrote comes out as something completely different to you.
This was the thread & the context, which maybe you forgot
The thread OP -
"A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc."
"Wondering if the twtd collective would extend that courtesy to members to the monarchy?
In the unlikely event of my ever meeting the Queen would it be disrepectful to refuse to refer to her as "Your majesty" and instead call her "Lizzy"?
I replied (p1)
"She's well known for her wit apparently, so I think you'd receive a polite & friendly but dry reply that might make you feel a bit sheepish for having taken "liberties"!
I'm all for respecting individuals, so it's however they want to be called as far as I'm concerned - unless they're clearly real life wrong 'uns who've transgresed big time, in which case I think I'd just blank them."
Crawfords Boot said
"Knowing you Lagos I’m thinking you would be perfectly comfortable with Lizzie!
I replied to him (and generally)
"Hint for anyone wanting to get on well with over 70s, whether "royalty" or not - don't ever call them by their first name if you've never previously met them, unless they invite you to do so ... 🤬"
You joked
"Alright Dave"
I replied
"Hey Phil 
EddyJ then said
"Answering the original question:
There is a big difference between someone choosing whether they want male, female or non-gendered pronouns and someone wanting to be called by their title.
Calling someone "he", "she", "they", "xhe" etc... doesn't impact me in any way. Therefore, if it will make said person more comfortable, it is a no-brainer to use their pronouns of choice.
Calling someone "your majesty" or other deferential BS is conceding the notion that the Queen is somehow better than I, or entitled to greater respect, simply because of an accident of birth.
If I was meeting the Queen for the first time, I would offer a handshake and refer to her as "Elizabeth". Perhaps if I got to know her better, I might switch to "Liz" or "Lizzy" or whatever shortening she preferred."
I replied to him
"That would just make you look exceptionally rude & uncaring about others generally.
"Mrs Windsor" yes. "Elizabeth" no. See my post above re over 70s."
To which you replied
"What if we don't agree with your post?
Not being awkward but genuinely have never had any issues calling women of that age by their first name. Never been an issue. Can't imagine any of the 70+ women in the family or my nan's friends etc would put up with being called Mrs *insert surname* for long.
Is it an area of the country thing?"
Which was ridiculous, because until then, the entire discussion had been about how you would address 70+ strangers for the first time, particularly the Queen - nothing whatsoever to do with what you call your own elderly family who you've known all your life & their aged friends.
It then continued onto this page etc with my reply
"Looks like again you haven't read my reply carefully enough, or misread what I said.
Which was "if meeting an over-70 for the first time, unless invited by them to do so"
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Yes it's very hard work, has taken me 38 mins to write this. Everyone else except yourself & EddyJ seems to have understood what I wrote. It is NOT about addressing people you already know, or social contexts like being introduced to friends of friends in a pub - it's about addressing elderly (70+) STRANGERS for THE FIRST TIME in a FORMAL SETTING (eg meeting the Queen at a Palace Garden Party; hospital docs who you don't know from Adam coming to examine you for the first time, etc.) | |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 09:48 - Jun 15 with 777 views | Ryorry |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 08:45 - Jun 15 by EddyJ |
Its rather arrogant to assume that all people of your (or any other) generation wish to be called "Mr" or "Mrs".
Second Wave Feminism in the 1960s challenged these titles because they represent a male-centric view of the world. A woman's surname is typically handed down from father to daughter and is retained it until they marry a man (and their "responsible male" changes).
Note also that females have titles that represent their marital state ("Mrs", "Miss") whereas all men are refereed to as "Mr." This is a telling indicator that these archaic titles are there to treat women as walking incubators rather than equals to men.
Most of the over 60s (and over 80s) I know would prefer to be called by their first names because they fought for the right to have this equality. |
I suggest you (& bigDonnie) re-read the thread, including my last reply to J2 (conclusion:
"It is NOT about addressing people you already know, or social contexts like being introduced to friends of friends in a pub - it's about addressing elderly (70+) STRANGERS for THE FIRST TIME in a FORMAL SETTING (eg meeting the Queen at a Palace Garden Party; hospital docs who you don't know from Adam coming to examine you for the first time, etc.)" ). | |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 10:01 - Jun 15 with 771 views | J2BLUE |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 09:37 - Jun 15 by Ryorry |
Jeezus H, you seemed to have got it first time round with your jokey calling me Dave.
Since then, your computer seems to have reset itself to a foreign language, as everything I wrote comes out as something completely different to you.
This was the thread & the context, which maybe you forgot
The thread OP -
"A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc."
"Wondering if the twtd collective would extend that courtesy to members to the monarchy?
In the unlikely event of my ever meeting the Queen would it be disrepectful to refuse to refer to her as "Your majesty" and instead call her "Lizzy"?
I replied (p1)
"She's well known for her wit apparently, so I think you'd receive a polite & friendly but dry reply that might make you feel a bit sheepish for having taken "liberties"!
I'm all for respecting individuals, so it's however they want to be called as far as I'm concerned - unless they're clearly real life wrong 'uns who've transgresed big time, in which case I think I'd just blank them."
Crawfords Boot said
"Knowing you Lagos I’m thinking you would be perfectly comfortable with Lizzie!
I replied to him (and generally)
"Hint for anyone wanting to get on well with over 70s, whether "royalty" or not - don't ever call them by their first name if you've never previously met them, unless they invite you to do so ... 🤬"
You joked
"Alright Dave"
I replied
"Hey Phil
EddyJ then said
"Answering the original question:
There is a big difference between someone choosing whether they want male, female or non-gendered pronouns and someone wanting to be called by their title.
Calling someone "he", "she", "they", "xhe" etc... doesn't impact me in any way. Therefore, if it will make said person more comfortable, it is a no-brainer to use their pronouns of choice.
Calling someone "your majesty" or other deferential BS is conceding the notion that the Queen is somehow better than I, or entitled to greater respect, simply because of an accident of birth.
If I was meeting the Queen for the first time, I would offer a handshake and refer to her as "Elizabeth". Perhaps if I got to know her better, I might switch to "Liz" or "Lizzy" or whatever shortening she preferred."
I replied to him
"That would just make you look exceptionally rude & uncaring about others generally.
"Mrs Windsor" yes. "Elizabeth" no. See my post above re over 70s."
To which you replied
"What if we don't agree with your post?
Not being awkward but genuinely have never had any issues calling women of that age by their first name. Never been an issue. Can't imagine any of the 70+ women in the family or my nan's friends etc would put up with being called Mrs *insert surname* for long.
Is it an area of the country thing?"
Which was ridiculous, because until then, the entire discussion had been about how you would address 70+ strangers for the first time, particularly the Queen - nothing whatsoever to do with what you call your own elderly family who you've known all your life & their aged friends.
It then continued onto this page etc with my reply
"Looks like again you haven't read my reply carefully enough, or misread what I said.
Which was "if meeting an over-70 for the first time, unless invited by them to do so"
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Yes it's very hard work, has taken me 38 mins to write this. Everyone else except yourself & EddyJ seems to have understood what I wrote. It is NOT about addressing people you already know, or social contexts like being introduced to friends of friends in a pub - it's about addressing elderly (70+) STRANGERS for THE FIRST TIME in a FORMAL SETTING (eg meeting the Queen at a Palace Garden Party; hospital docs who you don't know from Adam coming to examine you for the first time, etc.) |
38 minutes wasted. Not even going to bother. Has enough of the condescending attitude.
Bye. | |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 10:15 - Jun 15 with 743 views | Ryorry |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 10:01 - Jun 15 by J2BLUE |
38 minutes wasted. Not even going to bother. Has enough of the condescending attitude.
Bye. |
So you forgot the context of the thread and/or misread my posts, went off at a totally different tangent about what you call your elderly relatives & their elderly friends (which nobody was talking about till you introduced it), complained that I was hard work, and then when I take the trouble to explain, it's me that's condescending! 
I hope you will put me on ignore. | |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 10:47 - Jun 15 with 723 views | EddyJ |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 09:48 - Jun 15 by Ryorry |
I suggest you (& bigDonnie) re-read the thread, including my last reply to J2 (conclusion:
"It is NOT about addressing people you already know, or social contexts like being introduced to friends of friends in a pub - it's about addressing elderly (70+) STRANGERS for THE FIRST TIME in a FORMAL SETTING (eg meeting the Queen at a Palace Garden Party; hospital docs who you don't know from Adam coming to examine you for the first time, etc.)" ). |
Whether you know someone or not is a bit of a straw man which is irrelevant to what I am suggesting. I would call everyone (regardless of whether I know them) by their first name unless I knew them well enough to give them an nickname or alternative.
1) Your given name is a name. i.e. that's what its for.
2) Your given name is the most egalitarian part of your name. We all have one. It doesn't imply any rank or undue reverence (unlike Reverend, Major, Doctor, Your Majesty etc...). It doesn't have any discriminatory connotations (unlike Miss, Mrs etc...).
3) Its friendlier and less formal. Formality tends to create unnecessary barriers.
Based on talking to people I know, I believe that most people (of all generations, in a British context) would prefer to be known by their first name by family, friends and strangers alike. |  | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 11:08 - Jun 15 with 697 views | Ryorry |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 10:47 - Jun 15 by EddyJ |
Whether you know someone or not is a bit of a straw man which is irrelevant to what I am suggesting. I would call everyone (regardless of whether I know them) by their first name unless I knew them well enough to give them an nickname or alternative.
1) Your given name is a name. i.e. that's what its for.
2) Your given name is the most egalitarian part of your name. We all have one. It doesn't imply any rank or undue reverence (unlike Reverend, Major, Doctor, Your Majesty etc...). It doesn't have any discriminatory connotations (unlike Miss, Mrs etc...).
3) Its friendlier and less formal. Formality tends to create unnecessary barriers.
Based on talking to people I know, I believe that most people (of all generations, in a British context) would prefer to be known by their first name by family, friends and strangers alike. |
Meeting the Queen (or other over 70s) for the first time was the entire context of the thread. My posts have never been about family, friends or social settings.
Out of hundreds of other over 70s who've ever mentioned this, in hospital, retail or other formal settings, I've not encountered even one who'd prefer to be called by their first name by a complete stranger at a first meeting. Indeed, most have vehemently objected to it.
We obviously move in completely different circles.
I just don't have time for the extension into other areas you & J2 have taken the convo into I'm afraid, I'd been referring purely & simply to meeting the Queen & other over 70s for the first time as strangers. I have a massive session planting out etc in the garden now while the weather lasts. | |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 11:30 - Jun 15 with 673 views | EddyJ |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 11:08 - Jun 15 by Ryorry |
Meeting the Queen (or other over 70s) for the first time was the entire context of the thread. My posts have never been about family, friends or social settings.
Out of hundreds of other over 70s who've ever mentioned this, in hospital, retail or other formal settings, I've not encountered even one who'd prefer to be called by their first name by a complete stranger at a first meeting. Indeed, most have vehemently objected to it.
We obviously move in completely different circles.
I just don't have time for the extension into other areas you & J2 have taken the convo into I'm afraid, I'd been referring purely & simply to meeting the Queen & other over 70s for the first time as strangers. I have a massive session planting out etc in the garden now while the weather lasts. |
What we've established is that some people (of all generations) prefer title/surname and some people prefer first name. Given that they are strangers, we cannot know which until we meet them. So we have to have a social convention.
I have given several strong arguments for why that social convention should be first name (and indeed this is becoming the norm).
You haven't given any arguments for title/surname other than its what you personally prefer or its what you personally grew up with. For it to be a norm it needs to benefit everyone (or at least a majority). | | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:08 - Jun 15 with 637 views | Churchman |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 11:30 - Jun 15 by EddyJ |
What we've established is that some people (of all generations) prefer title/surname and some people prefer first name. Given that they are strangers, we cannot know which until we meet them. So we have to have a social convention.
I have given several strong arguments for why that social convention should be first name (and indeed this is becoming the norm).
You haven't given any arguments for title/surname other than its what you personally prefer or its what you personally grew up with. For it to be a norm it needs to benefit everyone (or at least a majority). |
My personal take is that I do not like a total stranger addressing me by my first name first time of meeting. I find it intrusive and rude. It’s the sort of thing greasy cold calling salesmen do.
If I am introduced by my first name to somebody then that’s ok. If I meet them a second time or ask them to use my first name, fine. In work because of the number of people I was interacting with it often happened and whether it annoyed or otherwise depended on who and the circumstance.
In terms of my using somebody else’s first name see above. There’s nothing wrong with a little caution with this sort of thing.
Addressing the Queen? I’d adhere to whatever the protocol was.
Edit: yes social conventions do change over time, just as language, working practices and god knows what else does. I just happen to think the first time you meet somebody is s or bust. You have one chance at it and my approach has never got me into any bother. [Post edited 15 Jun 2022 14:25]
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:16 - Jun 15 with 623 views | Swansea_Blue |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 11:08 - Jun 15 by Ryorry |
Meeting the Queen (or other over 70s) for the first time was the entire context of the thread. My posts have never been about family, friends or social settings.
Out of hundreds of other over 70s who've ever mentioned this, in hospital, retail or other formal settings, I've not encountered even one who'd prefer to be called by their first name by a complete stranger at a first meeting. Indeed, most have vehemently objected to it.
We obviously move in completely different circles.
I just don't have time for the extension into other areas you & J2 have taken the convo into I'm afraid, I'd been referring purely & simply to meeting the Queen & other over 70s for the first time as strangers. I have a massive session planting out etc in the garden now while the weather lasts. |
So, for the Queen I guess 'babe' is out of the question then? Probably explains why I've never been invited to meet her!
FWIW, I don't see what's wrong with addressing her however she wants to be addressed. If she and convention dictates it's Your Majesty, then Your Majesty it is.
Similarly I probably would show some respect when meeting someone from generation(s) older than me for the first time, by using Mr or Mrs. Maybe in person., depends how they were introduced. I certainly would in written form. A lot of people don't like over-familiarity, especially from strangers.
I have an issue with the American approach of calling everyone 'sir' though - that did my head in when I was out there. And that included people calling me sir. I'm sure the intention was to be respectful, but it felt uncomfortably hierarchical - I'm certainly no better than anyone else and would expect people to call me sir. If I was the queen, I wouldn't be happy with people calling me Your Maj either, but luckily I'm not her so won't ever have to worry about that! |  |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:29 - Jun 15 with 609 views | J2BLUE |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:16 - Jun 15 by Swansea_Blue |
So, for the Queen I guess 'babe' is out of the question then? Probably explains why I've never been invited to meet her!
FWIW, I don't see what's wrong with addressing her however she wants to be addressed. If she and convention dictates it's Your Majesty, then Your Majesty it is.
Similarly I probably would show some respect when meeting someone from generation(s) older than me for the first time, by using Mr or Mrs. Maybe in person., depends how they were introduced. I certainly would in written form. A lot of people don't like over-familiarity, especially from strangers.
I have an issue with the American approach of calling everyone 'sir' though - that did my head in when I was out there. And that included people calling me sir. I'm sure the intention was to be respectful, but it felt uncomfortably hierarchical - I'm certainly no better than anyone else and would expect people to call me sir. If I was the queen, I wouldn't be happy with people calling me Your Maj either, but luckily I'm not her so won't ever have to worry about that! |
Pipe down Swanners | |
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| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:31 - Jun 15 with 604 views | Churchman |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:16 - Jun 15 by Swansea_Blue |
So, for the Queen I guess 'babe' is out of the question then? Probably explains why I've never been invited to meet her!
FWIW, I don't see what's wrong with addressing her however she wants to be addressed. If she and convention dictates it's Your Majesty, then Your Majesty it is.
Similarly I probably would show some respect when meeting someone from generation(s) older than me for the first time, by using Mr or Mrs. Maybe in person., depends how they were introduced. I certainly would in written form. A lot of people don't like over-familiarity, especially from strangers.
I have an issue with the American approach of calling everyone 'sir' though - that did my head in when I was out there. And that included people calling me sir. I'm sure the intention was to be respectful, but it felt uncomfortably hierarchical - I'm certainly no better than anyone else and would expect people to call me sir. If I was the queen, I wouldn't be happy with people calling me Your Maj either, but luckily I'm not her so won't ever have to worry about that! |
The American approach is just their language though. It’s a bit like ‘have a nice day’. Almost a habit with them like certain other phrases they use. I don’t mind and know that in addressing me as ‘sir’ he/she’s really gauging the tip and whether or not I’m going to make life easy or difficult.
I get called Count quite a lot, but people pronounce it oddly. Very strange…. | | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:32 - Jun 15 with 594 views | leitrimblue |
Mrs Saxe-Coburg-Gotha may be a bit of a mouthful |  | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:08 - Jun 15 with 547 views | EddyJ |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 14:16 - Jun 15 by Swansea_Blue |
So, for the Queen I guess 'babe' is out of the question then? Probably explains why I've never been invited to meet her!
FWIW, I don't see what's wrong with addressing her however she wants to be addressed. If she and convention dictates it's Your Majesty, then Your Majesty it is.
Similarly I probably would show some respect when meeting someone from generation(s) older than me for the first time, by using Mr or Mrs. Maybe in person., depends how they were introduced. I certainly would in written form. A lot of people don't like over-familiarity, especially from strangers.
I have an issue with the American approach of calling everyone 'sir' though - that did my head in when I was out there. And that included people calling me sir. I'm sure the intention was to be respectful, but it felt uncomfortably hierarchical - I'm certainly no better than anyone else and would expect people to call me sir. If I was the queen, I wouldn't be happy with people calling me Your Maj either, but luckily I'm not her so won't ever have to worry about that! |
Slightly tangential question:
Why do older generations deserve more respect than younger generations? | | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:23 - Jun 15 with 543 views | Churchman |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:08 - Jun 15 by EddyJ |
Slightly tangential question:
Why do older generations deserve more respect than younger generations? |
They don’t. Everybody deserves respect in equal measure, regardless of age, gender and everything else - until they throw it away. Protocols, curtesy etc is a different thing altogether.
So, if you work on the basis with people of my way or the highway, absolutely fine. However, be prepared to narrow your own options.
For example, when I was on interview panels a few years ago, if a candidate used my first name without me inviting him/her to do so, that’d be their chance gone, just if they’d not dressed properly for it.
Why potentially narrow the options with people you don’t know when you don’t need to? | | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:30 - Jun 15 with 527 views | EddyJ |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:23 - Jun 15 by Churchman |
They don’t. Everybody deserves respect in equal measure, regardless of age, gender and everything else - until they throw it away. Protocols, curtesy etc is a different thing altogether.
So, if you work on the basis with people of my way or the highway, absolutely fine. However, be prepared to narrow your own options.
For example, when I was on interview panels a few years ago, if a candidate used my first name without me inviting him/her to do so, that’d be their chance gone, just if they’d not dressed properly for it.
Why potentially narrow the options with people you don’t know when you don’t need to? |
You may have just missed out on an excellent candidate because of them using your name.
Surely it is you who narrowed your own options. | | | |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:32 - Jun 15 with 525 views | Ryorry |
| A person's right to choose their own pronouns etc. on 15:08 - Jun 15 by EddyJ |
Slightly tangential question:
Why do older generations deserve more respect than younger generations? |
Nobody's said they do, & I believe the same respect should be equally applied to people of all ages, all races, all beliefs, all "classes" & all genders.
Hence the thread is about respecting others' wishes to be addressed as they choose, not as you choose. It's just common courtesy. If it's quite rightly applied to all re their gender-fluidity, then why would you choose not to apply it to older people? (or "Royalty" come to that - I've already said calling the Queen "Mrs Windsor" might be acceptable for strong anti-monarchists). | |
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