| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... 10:21 - Jun 21 with 8087 views | itfcjoe |
....trans women from competing in women's events.
It is now expected that World Athletics will follow in doing so as well ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/61865789 )
I'm not sure what the FIFA position is, but they released conflicting statements about it previously.
It does seem that the tide is turning back towards fairness in women's sports rather than inclusivity, which I personally think is right - it is impossible to square that circle of inclusivity and fairness without just destroying women's sports
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:40 - Jun 22 with 739 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:39 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
EDITED FOR WHOOSH. At least you got SB too. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 13:01]
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It is a joke, from the TV show called The Office, which I know Joe enjoys.
I am obviously not comparing Trans people to dogs. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 12:44]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 12:45 - Jun 22 with 707 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:40 - Jun 22 by unbelievablue |
It is a joke, from the TV show called The Office, which I know Joe enjoys.
I am obviously not comparing Trans people to dogs. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 12:44]
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Just hilarious.
Callis on his day off from the board has been posting for hours, advising texters to do CBT, and now is so wrapped up in everything that he thinks you were genuinely comparing trans-people to dogs.
Perhaps it’s the weed. |  | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:46 - Jun 22 with 698 views | J2BLUE |
Each sport should have an independent panel of anonymous experts who should decide what the rules are for each sport based on scientific fact.
Each side can make their case with ideological stuff ignored and based purely on the facts.
I would fully support a restriction if it was based on the science but there’s no question some political groups are using this as a legitimate cover to generally attack trans people. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:47 - Jun 22 with 695 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:37 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
The criteria I bullet pointed above really is something you’re going to completely overlook, isn’t it? |
What criteria? I'm just sticking to the science. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:47 - Jun 22 with 694 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:46 - Jun 22 by J2BLUE |
Each sport should have an independent panel of anonymous experts who should decide what the rules are for each sport based on scientific fact.
Each side can make their case with ideological stuff ignored and based purely on the facts.
I would fully support a restriction if it was based on the science but there’s no question some political groups are using this as a legitimate cover to generally attack trans people. |
The science doesn't seem to be clear, unfortunately, from what I've read between Joe and Callis. But agree with your approach. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 12:49]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:50 - Jun 22 with 680 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:47 - Jun 22 by unbelievablue |
The science doesn't seem to be clear, unfortunately, from what I've read between Joe and Callis. But agree with your approach. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 12:49]
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I sometimes read this board and wonder if we are all in an asylum. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:53 - Jun 22 with 657 views | monytowbray |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:47 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
What criteria? I'm just sticking to the science. |
Read my bullet points again. I don’t believe you are so ignorant to the limited scope or conclusions of the science you quote. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:55 - Jun 22 with 659 views | Churchman |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:29 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Why would I? If I did I’d only be moving the debate away from what I care about and doing it on the terms of yourself. There’s plenty other stuff in my posts in this thread to talk about you’ve skipped over after all. |
It was a specific question in respect of a sweeping comment about people and if truly believe what you say, why not name names?
Up to you. |  | | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 12:59 - Jun 22 with 634 views | monytowbray |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 12:45 - Jun 22 by PrideOfTheEast |
Just hilarious.
Callis on his day off from the board has been posting for hours, advising texters to do CBT, and now is so wrapped up in everything that he thinks you were genuinely comparing trans-people to dogs.
Perhaps it’s the weed. |
Sadly been dragged in. It is getting in the way and sadly it speaks of tech addiction, struggle with attention span and mental health. Arguing with poor posts like yourself, who think that’s funny, somehow a LOL owned or suggest that relates to a drug problem is far more problematic than calling people rude words.
I’ve posted some fairly solid reasoning here that only Joe in his defence seems keen to debate, whilst your input is to ignore the subject matter for this petty crap. It was the exact reason I did originally wanted to stay away today. You are LITERALLY wasting my time.
The fact you know my name suggests you are a poster who’s been here before. Combined with your input and arrows it doesn’t take a lot to presume you are a returning banned poster. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 13:06]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:00 - Jun 22 with 640 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:53 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Read my bullet points again. I don’t believe you are so ignorant to the limited scope or conclusions of the science you quote. |
I went through your bullet points on a previous page:
To go through points though:
- If they have puberty blockers they will be able to compete, as they won't have gone through male puberty which is the trigger.
- I think covered above, but if that is the case and it shows no advantage amongst scientific research papers then at that point they should be admitted
- The benchmark isn't really up to date at the elite level, because the top men and top women in the world will both be at the cutting edge of diet, training, investment, etc that it's relatively safe to say that the world leading times are what men and women are currently able to do physically
- Covered in previous point | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:00 - Jun 22 with 641 views | J2BLUE |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:47 - Jun 22 by unbelievablue |
The science doesn't seem to be clear, unfortunately, from what I've read between Joe and Callis. But agree with your approach. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 12:49]
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We will never know as much today as we do tomorrow. Not sure if it’s feasible but all sides could agree to go on the best evidence at the time and review 1-2 times per year. Each side could sign something to say they agree with the process and will not encourage mega action if it should turn out that they were wrong based on future evidence.
At the moment we just have the two sides screaming at each other. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:00 - Jun 22 with 629 views | monytowbray |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:40 - Jun 22 by unbelievablue |
It is a joke, from the TV show called The Office, which I know Joe enjoys.
I am obviously not comparing Trans people to dogs. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 12:44]
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My bad, apologies! | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:04 - Jun 22 with 618 views | monytowbray |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:00 - Jun 22 by itfcjoe |
I went through your bullet points on a previous page:
To go through points though:
- If they have puberty blockers they will be able to compete, as they won't have gone through male puberty which is the trigger.
- I think covered above, but if that is the case and it shows no advantage amongst scientific research papers then at that point they should be admitted
- The benchmark isn't really up to date at the elite level, because the top men and top women in the world will both be at the cutting edge of diet, training, investment, etc that it's relatively safe to say that the world leading times are what men and women are currently able to do physically
- Covered in previous point |
The problem is none of these points are covered. Because they are STILL up in the air. You don’t have responses to them. You aren’t a scientist. We haven’t tested. Scientists have no conclusions.
Hence why to push the idea we have the biology to make a call on it slips into the wider problem of transphobia.
A to B to C. I don’t think it’s complex to demonstrate the matter itself is more complex than you are insisting. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:04 - Jun 22 with 625 views | DropCliffsNotBombs |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:33 - Jun 22 by unbelievablue |
I go on to Crufts, I go, "Can I enter this dog in the Labrador section?" "No." "Why?" "Because it's not a Labrador." "Correct." "Can I enter it in the Alsatian section?" "No. For the same reasons. Now get that dog out of my sight." "Thanks, I will. You've proved my point." And that's Crufts. All right. |
People not recognising this quote is going to add a few pages to this thread. |  | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:05 - Jun 22 with 621 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:04 - Jun 22 by DropCliffsNotBombs |
People not recognising this quote is going to add a few pages to this thread. |
I'll invoice Phil later. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:07 - Jun 22 with 604 views | monytowbray |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 12:55 - Jun 22 by Churchman |
It was a specific question in respect of a sweeping comment about people and if truly believe what you say, why not name names?
Up to you. |
Because honestly, I cannot be bothered to deal with the fallout. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:10 - Jun 22 with 607 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 12:59 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Sadly been dragged in. It is getting in the way and sadly it speaks of tech addiction, struggle with attention span and mental health. Arguing with poor posts like yourself, who think that’s funny, somehow a LOL owned or suggest that relates to a drug problem is far more problematic than calling people rude words.
I’ve posted some fairly solid reasoning here that only Joe in his defence seems keen to debate, whilst your input is to ignore the subject matter for this petty crap. It was the exact reason I did originally wanted to stay away today. You are LITERALLY wasting my time.
The fact you know my name suggests you are a poster who’s been here before. Combined with your input and arrows it doesn’t take a lot to presume you are a returning banned poster. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 13:06]
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Dear Callis, I really have to say this and I apologise if it comes across wrong or you read it wrong.
You mention mental health. I was genuinely thinking last night after reading your posts that you might be having some kind of issue.
It might be an idea to just give the site a break for a while - ditto any other sites that you find yourself on too much.
Best regards.
Look after yourself fellow blue. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:21 - Jun 22 with 577 views | PrideOfTheEast |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 12:59 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Sadly been dragged in. It is getting in the way and sadly it speaks of tech addiction, struggle with attention span and mental health. Arguing with poor posts like yourself, who think that’s funny, somehow a LOL owned or suggest that relates to a drug problem is far more problematic than calling people rude words.
I’ve posted some fairly solid reasoning here that only Joe in his defence seems keen to debate, whilst your input is to ignore the subject matter for this petty crap. It was the exact reason I did originally wanted to stay away today. You are LITERALLY wasting my time.
The fact you know my name suggests you are a poster who’s been here before. Combined with your input and arrows it doesn’t take a lot to presume you are a returning banned poster. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 13:06]
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You’re wasting your own time mate, we all are. Now have a day off. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:21 - Jun 22 with 566 views | monytowbray |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:10 - Jun 22 by Lord_Lucan |
Dear Callis, I really have to say this and I apologise if it comes across wrong or you read it wrong.
You mention mental health. I was genuinely thinking last night after reading your posts that you might be having some kind of issue.
It might be an idea to just give the site a break for a while - ditto any other sites that you find yourself on too much.
Best regards.
Look after yourself fellow blue. |
Ya know, I am always much better when I’m not on here, and my partner will sense the days I get dragged in without me even saying.
People say I live in an echo chamber and I truly wise I did. When I remove the outside world and stick with people who help me better myself I am much happier and productive. I really tried today, and in fact I am regretting commenting in the first place. There are plenty of times I’ve not posted when urged and felt rewarded.
As I’ve said before, I don’t think you’re a bad person and appreciate the kind words. We are just very different, and face 2 face I expect we could discuss our biggest disagreements and come to good conclusions within minutes.
I am off now though. I like facts, and it feels like I won’t get much more from here today. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:31 - Jun 22 with 552 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:21 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Ya know, I am always much better when I’m not on here, and my partner will sense the days I get dragged in without me even saying.
People say I live in an echo chamber and I truly wise I did. When I remove the outside world and stick with people who help me better myself I am much happier and productive. I really tried today, and in fact I am regretting commenting in the first place. There are plenty of times I’ve not posted when urged and felt rewarded.
As I’ve said before, I don’t think you’re a bad person and appreciate the kind words. We are just very different, and face 2 face I expect we could discuss our biggest disagreements and come to good conclusions within minutes.
I am off now though. I like facts, and it feels like I won’t get much more from here today. |
Look after number 1 and do what makes you happy.
Don't get stressed by things and don't worry about things that you have no control over and or cannot change.
No need to reply, don't get sucked in, take an instant break.
Have a cup of tea and watch a light hearted film.
I recommend this.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3659786/
Edit; Neil Baldwin: I always wanted to be happy, so I decided to be. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 13:46]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 13:35 - Jun 22 with 543 views | BiGDonnie |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned....I on 12:45 - Jun 22 by PrideOfTheEast |
Just hilarious.
Callis on his day off from the board has been posting for hours, advising texters to do CBT, and now is so wrapped up in everything that he thinks you were genuinely comparing trans-people to dogs.
Perhaps it’s the weed. |
Or the lack of... |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 15:53 - Jun 22 with 480 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:04 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
The problem is none of these points are covered. Because they are STILL up in the air. You don’t have responses to them. You aren’t a scientist. We haven’t tested. Scientists have no conclusions.
Hence why to push the idea we have the biology to make a call on it slips into the wider problem of transphobia.
A to B to C. I don’t think it’s complex to demonstrate the matter itself is more complex than you are insisting. |
But we have tested and the tests that have been completed, and there have been 13 studies, all show the same thing - that the physical advantage has been retained even after tesosterone levels drop.
It hasn't been tested on elite athletes, but if you look at Lia Thomas - when she competed as Will Thomas she didn't get close to qualifying for the Mens NCAA Final, was ranked something like 65th in the country. When competing as Lia in the women's event she won pretty comfortably - her time is approx 5.8% slower than what it was - but when the performance difference is around 10% between men and women thats still a massive advantage and shows a retention of basically half the advantage being male gives you. But again she is not the elite, it's the top 3% rather than the top 1% - there will soon be stats for Emily Bridges as to how another top athlete has seen their times change.
But, when men have prostate cancer they have testosterone suppressants - and they are advised to complete strength training - again peer reviewed that they don't lose their muscle mass if they train whilst taken the testosterone suppressants.
So again a picture is built here - all studies show advantage is retained, the closest we have to an elite athlete transitioning shows a big retained advantage, studies show that muscle mass won't decrease even when taking the drugs for transition.
It's disingenuous to say it's up in the air, all data and all stats show where it is - if people want to form an opinion purely on data then it is there. People obviously have different interests for their views and there is no compromise being made between trans rights groups and womens safe space groups, but they aren't looking at data [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 16:09]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:27 - Jun 22 with 435 views | DanTheMan |
Saw this shared today and I thought it could add to the topic. It's from a biology professor on just how confusing even biological sex can be.
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:36 - Jun 22 with 414 views | lowhouseblue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:27 - Jun 22 by DanTheMan |
Saw this shared today and I thought it could add to the topic. It's from a biology professor on just how confusing even biological sex can be.
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this discusses similar issues form a different angle.
https://unherd.com/thepost/is-the-trans-lobby-manipulating-science/ |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:42 - Jun 22 with 406 views | DanTheMan |
That seems to be discussing a very different issue. Not saying it's not relevant, but that's to do with a chromosome syndrome as opposed to the thread talking about what those chromosomes in human beings actually control. | |
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