| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... 10:21 - Jun 21 with 8088 views | itfcjoe |
....trans women from competing in women's events.
It is now expected that World Athletics will follow in doing so as well ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/61865789 )
I'm not sure what the FIFA position is, but they released conflicting statements about it previously.
It does seem that the tide is turning back towards fairness in women's sports rather than inclusivity, which I personally think is right - it is impossible to square that circle of inclusivity and fairness without just destroying women's sports
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:14 - Jun 21 with 783 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 15:41 - Jun 21 by blueasfook |
Be honest, how many outside of that demographic did you see in that section? |
As I've stated, it was a broad mix. In the Virgin Lounge at Heathrow it was a broad mix too. I expected to be knee deep in celebs but everyone seemed relatively normal... and it occurred to me that most were probably like me - on business, and wouldn't have paid those prices if it were a personal trip.
Coming back I had my work partner in front of me - neither of us would be able to afford those prices - and a black guy behind me. To my right was empty and to the left was the window.
Going I had a south east Asian couple to my right and ahead, and a middle-aged woman to my left. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:15 - Jun 21 with 780 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 15:46 - Jun 21 by PrideOfTheEast |
Virgin "upper class" is akin to a business class product really. Not even comparable to the first class on many other airlines. |
I came back on British Airways and it was very similar. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:40 - Jun 21 with 740 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 14:22 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Finance in sport is a different issue (which football has tried to address, but still largely failed at). I'm not sure you can conflate it with artificially changing your body. |
Well, it’s also competitively unfair and adversely affects many more athletes than are affected by trans athletes.
The “fairness” line seems more than a little specious if we’re going to happily ignore massive financial advantages/disadvantages. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:45 - Jun 21 with 734 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 14:24 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
It's a total straw man to say 'other people have other advantages' though when talking about a protected category which women's sport is, and surely no one would disagree with how and why women's sport exists?
A good piece from Sean Ingle - but this line from the UCI is mental when talking about a protected category:
“It may not be necessary, or even possible, to eliminate all individual advantages held by a transgender,” the UCI writes in a policy document. “It is paramount, however, that all athletes competing have a chance to succeed, albeit not necessarily an equal chance and in line with the true essence of sport.”
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jun/20/no-magic-solution-in-the-battle-ov |
“Women’s sport is a protected category”??
Where do you get that from? | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:48 - Jun 21 with 720 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 14:43 - Jun 21 by unbelievablue |
This is my view, also. It's genuinely almost a non-issue which has been blown hugely out of proportion based on incredibly isolated incidents. To be picked up as a cause celebre is strange.
Given the sh!te trans people have to deal with, it's weird that the focus from so many is on their impact in organised sport. |
Indeed.
This stuff is getting pretty radicalised now. And one of the nastiest movements I’ve seen in a long time – intentionally or not. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 16:52]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:53 - Jun 21 with 700 views | Illinoisblue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:48 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
Indeed.
This stuff is getting pretty radicalised now. And one of the nastiest movements I’ve seen in a long time – intentionally or not. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 16:52]
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Given the tiny number of trans athletes involved the coverage is perhaps a little OTT but I don’t see how it’s nasty to protect the rights of female athletes to be able to compete in an even field |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:55 - Jun 21 with 693 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:53 - Jun 21 by Illinoisblue |
Given the tiny number of trans athletes involved the coverage is perhaps a little OTT but I don’t see how it’s nasty to protect the rights of female athletes to be able to compete in an even field |
FWIW I don't think it's nasty, necessarily. Just weird that anyone with zero skin in the game cares about it enough to stay in the loop and engage with it. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:55 - Jun 21 with 689 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:40 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
Well, it’s also competitively unfair and adversely affects many more athletes than are affected by trans athletes.
The “fairness” line seems more than a little specious if we’re going to happily ignore massive financial advantages/disadvantages. |
But I mean where does it stop? You could say it's unfair that Usain Bolt had stronger legs than everyone else.
Money helps, but those athletes still had to train damn hard. Money didn't buy them a physical advantage. Look at the Ethiopian runners. Incredible athletes but hardly awash with cash. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:57 - Jun 21 with 685 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:15 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I came back on British Airways and it was very similar. |
So you came back business class? |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:58 - Jun 21 with 678 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:57 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
So you came back business class? |
I came back on whatever the top one on BA is called. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:59 - Jun 21 with 678 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 15:46 - Jun 21 by PrideOfTheEast |
Virgin "upper class" is akin to a business class product really. Not even comparable to the first class on many other airlines. |
Flew it a lot during Covid to London on my visits with Delta points as they were flying basically empty with only dual citizens or people with certain status allowed to travel, therefore it was cheap. They were only asking about 50k miles sky miles in one direction. The newer A350s JFK > LHR are decent but not a true “first”class experience as you say. A lot of Virgins older product is junk these days.
You’re only seen in the concord longue these days eh ;) [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 17:01]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:59 - Jun 21 with 679 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:53 - Jun 21 by Illinoisblue |
Given the tiny number of trans athletes involved the coverage is perhaps a little OTT but I don’t see how it’s nasty to protect the rights of female athletes to be able to compete in an even field |
When have people genuinely cared about actual fairness in sport? And in women’s sport?
That goes triple for a lot of the people getting overly exercised by it now. This largely non-issue has instead been used by transphobes to push their agenda.
I’m aware of the need to find solutions within sports but frankly I think bigots should be nowhere near that process. Nor even on the sidelines. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:06 - Jun 21 with 652 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:59 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
When have people genuinely cared about actual fairness in sport? And in women’s sport?
That goes triple for a lot of the people getting overly exercised by it now. This largely non-issue has instead been used by transphobes to push their agenda.
I’m aware of the need to find solutions within sports but frankly I think bigots should be nowhere near that process. Nor even on the sidelines. |
Why do you keep bringing it back to transphobes and bigots pushing an agenda? I am neither. But I appreciate why this is an issue for women's sport. If you're going to allow trans people to compete physically with women, then you might as well let men in and be done with it - completely killing off women's sport.
There might not be a hell of a lot of trans athletes at the moment, but that will change over time. Do you just kick the can down the road or address the issue now?
People do genuinely care about fairness in sport - that's why you have men's and women's events now! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:06 - Jun 21 with 652 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:58 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
I came back on whatever the top one on BA is called. |
The top one on BA is beyond my means.
Apparently if you sit on A1 you get a blow job from the ghost of Cilla Black | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:08 - Jun 21 with 642 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:55 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
But I mean where does it stop? You could say it's unfair that Usain Bolt had stronger legs than everyone else.
Money helps, but those athletes still had to train damn hard. Money didn't buy them a physical advantage. Look at the Ethiopian runners. Incredible athletes but hardly awash with cash. |
For the Ethiopians it’s also about East African genetics (basically longer and lighter calves). But yes, training and hard work are even more important overall.
Team GB’s spending on hunting gold medals in a few sports far exceeds the vast majority of the competition. I don’t think that’s fair – in fact I think it makes a bit of a mockery of sport. Nor is it fair on sports in the UK that aren’t even given crumbs to keep going.
Either way, when we’re talking about fairness in sport, we’re talking about far less impact from transathletes on far fewer competitors than financial doping. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:08 - Jun 21 with 637 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:06 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
The top one on BA is beyond my means.
Apparently if you sit on A1 you get a blow job from the ghost of Cilla Black |
It's beyond my means too. Don't tell anyone but I kept the PJs! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:10 - Jun 21 with 635 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:06 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why do you keep bringing it back to transphobes and bigots pushing an agenda? I am neither. But I appreciate why this is an issue for women's sport. If you're going to allow trans people to compete physically with women, then you might as well let men in and be done with it - completely killing off women's sport.
There might not be a hell of a lot of trans athletes at the moment, but that will change over time. Do you just kick the can down the road or address the issue now?
People do genuinely care about fairness in sport - that's why you have men's and women's events now! |
I bring it back to transphobia and bigotry because that’s what’s driving the debate. Or certainly infecting it.
This has been rumbling along for years. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:14 - Jun 21 with 622 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:06 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
The top one on BA is beyond my means.
Apparently if you sit on A1 you get a blow job from the ghost of Cilla Black |
It’s only for PrideoftheEast or Piers Morgan these days. | | | |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:22 - Jun 21 with 599 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:45 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
“Women’s sport is a protected category”??
Where do you get that from? |
What do you think it is then? | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:22 - Jun 21 with 599 views | Illinoisblue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 16:59 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
When have people genuinely cared about actual fairness in sport? And in women’s sport?
That goes triple for a lot of the people getting overly exercised by it now. This largely non-issue has instead been used by transphobes to push their agenda.
I’m aware of the need to find solutions within sports but frankly I think bigots should be nowhere near that process. Nor even on the sidelines. |
Try telling the female athletes denied the opportunity to win medals or championships that it’s a “non-issue”. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:23 - Jun 21 with 590 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:22 - Jun 21 by Illinoisblue |
Try telling the female athletes denied the opportunity to win medals or championships that it’s a “non-issue”. |
I sympathise in those situations.
However, how many instances of that have there been? Completely disproportional coverage and/or discussion. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:25 - Jun 21 with 586 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:10 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
I bring it back to transphobia and bigotry because that’s what’s driving the debate. Or certainly infecting it.
This has been rumbling along for years. |
It's not what's driving me, and I suspect most in this thread. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:26 - Jun 21 with 581 views | lowhouseblue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:10 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
I bring it back to transphobia and bigotry because that’s what’s driving the debate. Or certainly infecting it.
This has been rumbling along for years. |
throwing insults about in what has been a perfectly civilised discussion is really pathetic. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:27 - Jun 21 with 581 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:23 - Jun 21 by unbelievablue |
I sympathise in those situations.
However, how many instances of that have there been? Completely disproportional coverage and/or discussion. |
But they will surely increase in the future as more people transition. So at some point the issue has to be dealt with. Kicking the can down the road is just postponing the decision. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:29 - Jun 21 with 571 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:27 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
But they will surely increase in the future as more people transition. So at some point the issue has to be dealt with. Kicking the can down the road is just postponing the decision. |
True, and I'm not advocating for that.
But I will forever find it strange that this is where a disproportionate amount of energy goes when there are a lot more pressing transgender issues (for trans and non-trans folk alike). | |
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