| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... 10:21 - Jun 21 with 8077 views | itfcjoe |
....trans women from competing in women's events.
It is now expected that World Athletics will follow in doing so as well ( https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/61865789 )
I'm not sure what the FIFA position is, but they released conflicting statements about it previously.
It does seem that the tide is turning back towards fairness in women's sports rather than inclusivity, which I personally think is right - it is impossible to square that circle of inclusivity and fairness without just destroying women's sports
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:32 - Jun 21 with 1140 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:26 - Jun 21 by lowhouseblue |
throwing insults about in what has been a perfectly civilised discussion is really pathetic. |
Oh pipe down, you utter @rse.
That’s an insult. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:32 - Jun 21 with 1133 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:29 - Jun 21 by unbelievablue |
True, and I'm not advocating for that.
But I will forever find it strange that this is where a disproportionate amount of energy goes when there are a lot more pressing transgender issues (for trans and non-trans folk alike). |
This is a football messageboard so people are likely to be more interested as it's sport. For me it's a tricky one as a supporter of gay rights, transgender rights, et al. But on this issue I can see why it would be unfair, purely based on science. Someone's going to be upset whatever you do, so it's my view you make the least amount of people upset as possible. |  |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:33 - Jun 21 with 1131 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:06 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Why do you keep bringing it back to transphobes and bigots pushing an agenda? I am neither. But I appreciate why this is an issue for women's sport. If you're going to allow trans people to compete physically with women, then you might as well let men in and be done with it - completely killing off women's sport.
There might not be a hell of a lot of trans athletes at the moment, but that will change over time. Do you just kick the can down the road or address the issue now?
People do genuinely care about fairness in sport - that's why you have men's and women's events now! |
It gets taken back to that in an attempt to stifle the debate.
There were 2 Team GB athletes on a podcast who had to have their words read by actors as basically if any female comes out and speaks about this they are met with unfounded abuse - men don’t seem to get it as badly like most things in social media. They said that every female they speak to in sport shares their view but are too scared to say anything due to the abuse they will receive | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:34 - Jun 21 with 1122 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:14 - Jun 21 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
It’s only for PrideoftheEast or Piers Morgan these days. |
PrideoftheEast still owes me £280k from when he was drunk many years ago in The Clerkandwell |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:36 - Jun 21 with 1109 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:22 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
What do you think it is then? |
It’s not a “protected category”. That term has a specific meaning.
I’m interested why you’re using it here. And why you think that excludes transwomen. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 17:38]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:36 - Jun 21 with 1106 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:34 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
PrideoftheEast still owes me £280k from when he was drunk many years ago in The Clerkandwell |
Wowsers, that's one hell of a night. Or a silly bet?! | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:41 - Jun 21 with 1083 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:33 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
It gets taken back to that in an attempt to stifle the debate.
There were 2 Team GB athletes on a podcast who had to have their words read by actors as basically if any female comes out and speaks about this they are met with unfounded abuse - men don’t seem to get it as badly like most things in social media. They said that every female they speak to in sport shares their view but are too scared to say anything due to the abuse they will receive |
Oh please. Women athletes are speaking out both for and against.
Some may not want to be accused of prejudice and transphobia. I get that. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:42 - Jun 21 with 1081 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:36 - Jun 21 by The_Flashing_Smile |
Wowsers, that's one hell of a night. Or a silly bet?! |
I have of course let him off, mores the pity as he finds that amount daily in the back of his sofa. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:58 - Jun 21 with 1038 views | textbackup |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:42 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
I have of course let him off, mores the pity as he finds that amount daily in the back of his sofa. |
Bet he’s got a mo ey tree in his garden too, the scallywag |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:00 - Jun 21 with 1027 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:36 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
It’s not a “protected category”. That term has a specific meaning.
I’m interested why you’re using it here. And why you think that excludes transwomen. [Post edited 21 Jun 2022 17:38]
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It excludes trans women because the womens category is based on your biological sex and all that entails as opposed to how you choose to identify | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:02 - Jun 21 with 1015 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:00 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
It excludes trans women because the womens category is based on your biological sex and all that entails as opposed to how you choose to identify |
What? Women’s sport? | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:02 - Jun 21 with 1019 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:41 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
Oh please. Women athletes are speaking out both for and against.
Some may not want to be accused of prejudice and transphobia. I get that. |
They are scared to speak out because they will falsely be accused of transphobia. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:05 - Jun 21 with 1002 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:02 - Jun 21 by Darth_Koont |
What? Women’s sport? |
Yes, you know that thing that biological women play because they can’t compete with men - it’s a fairly big deal in the world for a lot of people. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:07 - Jun 21 with 991 views | The_Flashing_Smile |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 17:42 - Jun 21 by Lord_Lucan |
I have of course let him off, mores the pity as he finds that amount daily in the back of his sofa. |
You should probably buy his sofa. | |
| Trust the process. Trust Phil. |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:08 - Jun 21 with 986 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:02 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
They are scared to speak out because they will falsely be accused of transphobia. |
Or for scaremongering that “women’s sport will be destroyed” like you did in your OP?
It’s a debate in probably most sports and in rugby we’ve had honest discussions about it. It’s seen as a relatively tricky balance and that inclusivity can’t be sacrificed for “fairness” or vice versa. But it’s also recognised as a real issue for transathletes but a much more limited one for cis women athletes.
The exaggerations and scaremongering don’t help. And let’s be honest there are a lot of transphobes involved too. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:12 - Jun 21 with 966 views | Darth_Koont |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 18:05 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
Yes, you know that thing that biological women play because they can’t compete with men - it’s a fairly big deal in the world for a lot of people. |
Sigh. I’ll try again.
Why are you calling it a “protected category” when it’s not? And if it somehow were, then it would include transwomen based on the actual legal protection. | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 19:29 - Jun 21 with 878 views | StokieBlue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 13:38 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
I guess there is an issue in the fact that there was talk of "where are all the transwomen dominating sport" as though until it happens then there isn't an issue - and then we see Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges and it is right back as a big issue and it seems unfair to talk about them personally but then at what point do you talk about them.
Both Bridges and Thomas have been badly let down by their governing bodies though, I think the governing bodies in trying to go down the inclusivity route have totally failed them - they've told Bridges and Thomas that if you do this then you can compete, and they have done so, but now push has come to shove and they won't be able to.
Whilst it may have a small impact currently, that can change quickly and if it does then there are individuals who get badly victimised by it.
There are huge questions coming over the hill with DSD athletes in running as well - because Semenya had been so succesful you can't run in races from 400m to a mile without taking testosterone suppressants.....but now Christine Mboma who is really a runner over that distance is running 200m and looks awkward but is still smashes the records....if she continues to do so DSDs won't be able to run in that event going forwards. |
This isn't specifically a response to you but I have a bit of a problem with the situation in your final paragraph. One cannot control their genetics so it seems incredibly harsh to ban genetically female women (Semanya is technically intersex which is a bit different but Mboma is genetically female) from competing in women's sport.
Their genetic mutations are advantageous, no doubt about that, however so are the genetic differences that many other athletes have and there is no questions asked about them competing (for instance, athletes from populations who reside at over 2000m and whose genetics have evolved to have more red blood cells).
Why are women with higher testosterone levels singled out?
SB |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 19:54 - Jun 21 with 833 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 19:29 - Jun 21 by StokieBlue |
This isn't specifically a response to you but I have a bit of a problem with the situation in your final paragraph. One cannot control their genetics so it seems incredibly harsh to ban genetically female women (Semanya is technically intersex which is a bit different but Mboma is genetically female) from competing in women's sport.
Their genetic mutations are advantageous, no doubt about that, however so are the genetic differences that many other athletes have and there is no questions asked about them competing (for instance, athletes from populations who reside at over 2000m and whose genetics have evolved to have more red blood cells).
Why are women with higher testosterone levels singled out?
SB |
Isn’t Mboma the same as Semenya in being intersex? But both born female and brought up female and just internally have testes rather than ovaries?
I think their situation is much more difficult, but if DSDs are excluded then how can anyone born male be included? | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 20:17 - Jun 21 with 810 views | Lord_Lucan |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 19:54 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
Isn’t Mboma the same as Semenya in being intersex? But both born female and brought up female and just internally have testes rather than ovaries?
I think their situation is much more difficult, but if DSDs are excluded then how can anyone born male be included? |
I think if they are technically born female then they can compete.
if they were born male with a cock and balls then they can't
I hope I haven't over simplified things.
Heaven forbid! | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 20:24 - Jun 21 with 792 views | StokieBlue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 19:54 - Jun 21 by itfcjoe |
Isn’t Mboma the same as Semenya in being intersex? But both born female and brought up female and just internally have testes rather than ovaries?
I think their situation is much more difficult, but if DSDs are excluded then how can anyone born male be included? |
The Namibian Federation has said she's not intersex.
SB | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 21:16 - Jun 21 with 744 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 20:24 - Jun 21 by StokieBlue |
The Namibian Federation has said she's not intersex.
SB |
She’s the same as Semenya in that is classified as intersex | |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 00:44 - Jun 22 with 652 views | monytowbray |
Fairness in women’s sports, says a bunch of blokes who recently spent a large chunk of an FA Cup game whinging how sh1t women’s football is on here and largely struggle to even discuss the achievements of women without dragging it back to which ones they’d rather “shag”.
You may not realise it, but many of you have fell for a rather horrid attack on human rights, and it’s really not going to end well. You may think this is just about sports fairness. I promise you it isn’t. As many have pointed out, the outright ban is completely political.
As always, I’ll drag this thread up in 5 years to see how it’s aged. |  |
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 02:16 - Jun 22 with 616 views | monytowbray |
Also, whilst I remember. I am off work tomorrow and I am not losing a day to this forum, so my catch all response to any replies I may get is this:
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865
It honestly does not look like many of the people screaming about genetics and unfair advantages are aware of how hormone therapy works. A good idea - research first, opinion after. Not a hard concept. Limited studies on just hormone therapy alone, but there’s plenty to suggest the playing field could be level, studies are limited to 3 years at present and what needs benchmarking/study criteria is up for debate. If science can’t make a final call on it, no one on this forum can.
For many these LBG-exclusive angles in the name of “feminism”, often sourced and pushed with a far right agenda attached, is a thin veil which hides transphobia.
https://www.them.us/story/a-majority-of-uk-cisgender-women-support-trans-rights-
Many like to speculate on what they would have done when the Nazis came for the Jewish population if they lived in 1930s Germany. From watching the gradual frenzy trans rights has dragged into political discourse these last few years, I think many of you won’t like the answer to that question.
The people steering this ship will soon be rolling out their own version of human rights for Britain. Someone drag up that “Sleepwalking into fascism” thread again.
Night, I’m off to a festival on Thursday. [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 2:30]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 07:20 - Jun 22 with 556 views | itfcjoe |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 00:44 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Fairness in women’s sports, says a bunch of blokes who recently spent a large chunk of an FA Cup game whinging how sh1t women’s football is on here and largely struggle to even discuss the achievements of women without dragging it back to which ones they’d rather “shag”.
You may not realise it, but many of you have fell for a rather horrid attack on human rights, and it’s really not going to end well. You may think this is just about sports fairness. I promise you it isn’t. As many have pointed out, the outright ban is completely political.
As always, I’ll drag this thread up in 5 years to see how it’s aged. |
Your first paragraph is utter b0ll0x - you won’t find posts from me disrespecting womens sport, don’t let that stand in the way of your smugness.
And the second post is rubbish too, the science is clear in what male puberty does, testerone suppressent simply does not remove the advantages of male puberty in lung capacity, vo2 max, bone density, heart size, haemoglobin production etc.
Read your own link also:
“ The effects of longer duration therapy (36 months) in eliciting further decrements in these measures are unclear due to paucity of data. Notwithstanding, values for strength, LBM and muscle area in transwomen remain above those of cisgender women, even after 36 months of hormone therapy.” [Post edited 22 Jun 2022 7:22]
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| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 08:04 - Jun 22 with 533 views | unbelievablue |
| The International Swimming Organisation has banned.... on 00:44 - Jun 22 by monytowbray |
Fairness in women’s sports, says a bunch of blokes who recently spent a large chunk of an FA Cup game whinging how sh1t women’s football is on here and largely struggle to even discuss the achievements of women without dragging it back to which ones they’d rather “shag”.
You may not realise it, but many of you have fell for a rather horrid attack on human rights, and it’s really not going to end well. You may think this is just about sports fairness. I promise you it isn’t. As many have pointed out, the outright ban is completely political.
As always, I’ll drag this thread up in 5 years to see how it’s aged. |
Again, your failure to respond in a civil manner, including lumping everyone together and calling out people for things they've never done, is telling. Div-listed (again). |  |
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