| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law 11:11 - Nov 23 with 6950 views | bluelagos |
Can we now adopt an England first approach to Twtding?
Glassers, DK, Homer et al to have their posts quality checked before posting.
We'd need some volunteers to do the hard lifting / checking so maybe we also limit their posts to 5 a day?
Any objections from the English posters? (Scottish posters / residents can button it) |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:04 - Nov 23 with 1254 views | XYZ |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 21:28 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
He’s not the sharpest tool in the box. [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 21:29]
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Log out; log in.
Avoid interaction I'm incapable of coping with.
Edit; edit; edit.
I've got him on ignore don't you know.
Oh sh!t, another gasket's blown. |  | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:07 - Nov 23 with 1246 views | XYZ |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 21:50 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
It’s a two horse race when people are interpreting the Scottish Parliament elections as a proxy referendum vote. |
Of course it isn't if other parties (Greens) support an Indy Ref.
It also ignores the fact that people who support an Indy Ref will still vote Labour or otherwise for reasons they think are more immediate. | | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:16 - Nov 23 with 1228 views | XYZ |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:07 - Nov 23 by XYZ |
Of course it isn't if other parties (Greens) support an Indy Ref.
It also ignores the fact that people who support an Indy Ref will still vote Labour or otherwise for reasons they think are more immediate. |
Avoiding a GB edit ....
I should have added - an SNP vote is the baseline support for an Indy Ref - not the total support as GB alleges.
Add in the Greens and others and you're easily above 50%.
I'm not claiming that would result in a Leave vote (or on the merits) - just that the democratic argument for an Indy Ref is there. | | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:33 - Nov 23 with 1221 views | factual_blue |
You're giving them five posts a day too many there. |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:34 - Nov 23 with 1221 views | chicoazul |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 20:07 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
55% who voted at the last election did not vote SNP. The SNPO do not have a majority in the Scottish parliament and are propped up by the Greens.
Scotland do not keep voting for SNP |
If they are indeed propped up by the Green Party surely that must mean the Green Party share their aim? |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:35 - Nov 23 with 1216 views | chicoazul |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 21:42 - Nov 23 by HARRY10 |
Unfortunately there is something called law in the UK. Decided u[on/ interpreted by the judiciary. Which act on laws made by Parliament.
I know you righties aren't to keen on democracy, or the judiciary as shown in 2019, but for the rest of us that us how it is.
Wee Krankie claimed that Scotlands voice would be heard. It has not been. What has been heard is her voice in court.
If she did not know how the law stood on this matter then she is a fool, or if she did, is a knave. Using deceit and misrepresentation to retain a weakening support for the SNP. Down from 52% (Nov 20) to 44% now.
And still behind with Independence support, as the SNP has been since the last one.
Disgust with the Tory government is one thing, being dumb enough to swallow Farage style lies is another. |
Those bonkers righties like Nicola Sturgeon eh Harold. | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:46 - Nov 23 with 1199 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:34 - Nov 23 by chicoazul |
If they are indeed propped up by the Green Party surely that must mean the Green Party share their aim? |
They do. But the SNP got 47% of the constituency vote and the Greens got 1% . That’s 48% pro independence.
In the regional vote the SNP got 40% and the Greens got 8%. Again that’s 48%. Unionist parties got a bigger vote share than Indy parties.
But my initial reply was to your statement “Scotland keep voting for SNP”. They don’t. A majority of people who voted did not vote SNP. A majority of people who voted did not vote for pro Indy parties.
As we know, under our FOTP system we keep getting Tory governments. But the people, of the UK don’t keep voting Tory.
Back to your original statement. Turnout at the last Scottish elections was 63%. You can do the math. 45% of the 63% who voted does not demonstrate that Scotland keeps voting for the SNP. [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 22:47]
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:58 - Nov 23 with 1187 views | XYZ |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:46 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
They do. But the SNP got 47% of the constituency vote and the Greens got 1% . That’s 48% pro independence.
In the regional vote the SNP got 40% and the Greens got 8%. Again that’s 48%. Unionist parties got a bigger vote share than Indy parties.
But my initial reply was to your statement “Scotland keep voting for SNP”. They don’t. A majority of people who voted did not vote SNP. A majority of people who voted did not vote for pro Indy parties.
As we know, under our FOTP system we keep getting Tory governments. But the people, of the UK don’t keep voting Tory.
Back to your original statement. Turnout at the last Scottish elections was 63%. You can do the math. 45% of the 63% who voted does not demonstrate that Scotland keeps voting for the SNP. [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 22:47]
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Lol. That's a load of anti-democratic bile.
What is it about an Indy Ref that scares you so much?
Why do you want to stop the people putting their views on the record? | | | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 23:01 - Nov 23 with 1180 views | XYZ |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:58 - Nov 23 by XYZ |
Lol. That's a load of anti-democratic bile.
What is it about an Indy Ref that scares you so much?
Why do you want to stop the people putting their views on the record? |
Log out: Log in.
"I can't cope with people that disagree with me." | | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 23:14 - Nov 23 with 1163 views | WeWereZombies |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:34 - Nov 23 by chicoazul |
If they are indeed propped up by the Green Party surely that must mean the Green Party share their aim? |
Last time I went to a Scottish Green Party pre-election meeting I asked that very question and was informed that the party policy was to support independence but individual members and party representatives had the right to go their own way on the issue. This was a few years ago mind and since then we have had the resignation of one of their leading lights, Andy Wightman, over another issue (the should people who have a different gender identity to their genitalia, i.e. they have a penis, be allowed to go to the ladies ?) My disappointment with the Greens tinkering around the edges approach was compounded by this as all Wightman wanted was a debate on the issue before a party policy was formed but Lorna Slater effectively forced him out of the party on the matter. |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 00:54 - Nov 24 with 1125 views | chicoazul |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 22:46 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
They do. But the SNP got 47% of the constituency vote and the Greens got 1% . That’s 48% pro independence.
In the regional vote the SNP got 40% and the Greens got 8%. Again that’s 48%. Unionist parties got a bigger vote share than Indy parties.
But my initial reply was to your statement “Scotland keep voting for SNP”. They don’t. A majority of people who voted did not vote SNP. A majority of people who voted did not vote for pro Indy parties.
As we know, under our FOTP system we keep getting Tory governments. But the people, of the UK don’t keep voting Tory.
Back to your original statement. Turnout at the last Scottish elections was 63%. You can do the math. 45% of the 63% who voted does not demonstrate that Scotland keeps voting for the SNP. [Post edited 23 Nov 2022 22:47]
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Ok ok I’m already dead jeez.
(Fair comment luv thanks for the insight) | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 06:36 - Nov 24 with 1091 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 00:54 - Nov 24 by chicoazul |
Ok ok I’m already dead jeez.
(Fair comment luv thanks for the insight) |
No problem Chico.
The issue I have with Nicola Sturgeon’s making the next general election a single issue vote about independence is how do you interpret the vote.
Obviously nationalist coheres around the SNP whereas the Unionist vote is split between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem and a few other minority parties. So we know that the SNP will win the most parliamentary seats. So dyes she declare that outcome as a mandate fur independence? Or is the threshold for independence 51% of the vote share for the SNP?
A logical situation would be fir the three main parties to agree to step aside fir the unionist candidate most likely to win a seat. Making it a two horse race between a nationalist candidate and a unionist candidate. But that isn’t going to happen, so we would rely in tactical voting. There was tactical voting in last year’s Scottish parliamentary elections which cost the SNP their majority in Hollywood. But in a UK general election you are not going to get lifelong Labour voters voting Tory and vice versa.
The simplest solution would be to hold a referendum with the question “should there be a referendum in Scottish independence”. If a Majority vote to hold another referendum then it should be granted and that would be the democratic wish of the people of Scotland. | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:18 - Nov 24 with 1042 views | GeoffSentence |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 20:07 - Nov 23 by GlasgowBlue |
55% who voted at the last election did not vote SNP. The SNPO do not have a majority in the Scottish parliament and are propped up by the Greens.
Scotland do not keep voting for SNP |
In the same way England does not keep voting for the Tories but we get lumbered with them year in year out. |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:21 - Nov 24 with 1029 views | DJR |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 06:36 - Nov 24 by GlasgowBlue |
No problem Chico.
The issue I have with Nicola Sturgeon’s making the next general election a single issue vote about independence is how do you interpret the vote.
Obviously nationalist coheres around the SNP whereas the Unionist vote is split between Tory, Labour, Lib Dem and a few other minority parties. So we know that the SNP will win the most parliamentary seats. So dyes she declare that outcome as a mandate fur independence? Or is the threshold for independence 51% of the vote share for the SNP?
A logical situation would be fir the three main parties to agree to step aside fir the unionist candidate most likely to win a seat. Making it a two horse race between a nationalist candidate and a unionist candidate. But that isn’t going to happen, so we would rely in tactical voting. There was tactical voting in last year’s Scottish parliamentary elections which cost the SNP their majority in Hollywood. But in a UK general election you are not going to get lifelong Labour voters voting Tory and vice versa.
The simplest solution would be to hold a referendum with the question “should there be a referendum in Scottish independence”. If a Majority vote to hold another referendum then it should be granted and that would be the democratic wish of the people of Scotland. |
In the current circumstances, I rather doubt the SNP/Greens would get more than 50% of the vote, so making the general election about independence does not seem a particularly good idea to me, although no doubt they would latch on to the number of seats won.
I support independence, but don't live there, so if it were down to me, I would lay off the independence issue for ten to twenty years until the older generation of Unionists are no longer with us, and perhaps the UK/EU border issue has been solved.
But I suppose the SNP are driven by its objects, and its vociferous supporters, so couldn't really go down this line.
Perhaps its best hope at a referendum is a hung Parliament with a Labour majority, where it could insist on a referendum for its support. That would put Labour in a fairly tricky position, although interestingly a Labour government might actually weaken support for independence. [Post edited 24 Nov 2022 8:29]
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:28 - Nov 24 with 1011 views | GlasgowBlue |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:21 - Nov 24 by DJR |
In the current circumstances, I rather doubt the SNP/Greens would get more than 50% of the vote, so making the general election about independence does not seem a particularly good idea to me, although no doubt they would latch on to the number of seats won.
I support independence, but don't live there, so if it were down to me, I would lay off the independence issue for ten to twenty years until the older generation of Unionists are no longer with us, and perhaps the UK/EU border issue has been solved.
But I suppose the SNP are driven by its objects, and its vociferous supporters, so couldn't really go down this line.
Perhaps its best hope at a referendum is a hung Parliament with a Labour majority, where it could insist on a referendum for its support. That would put Labour in a fairly tricky position, although interestingly a Labour government might actually weaken support for independence. [Post edited 24 Nov 2022 8:29]
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If Labour win the next general ejection, which seems likely, then you’ll see Indy support drop at least 10 points.
That’s why Sturgeon is desperate to push this through now. The Tories are her bogey men. | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:31 - Nov 24 with 1012 views | DJR |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:28 - Nov 24 by GlasgowBlue |
If Labour win the next general ejection, which seems likely, then you’ll see Indy support drop at least 10 points.
That’s why Sturgeon is desperate to push this through now. The Tories are her bogey men. |
Yep, I just added that point at the end of my post. This all points to laying off the issue for ten to twenty years, if independence is really the goal. | | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:44 - Nov 24 with 1001 views | DJR |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:28 - Nov 24 by GlasgowBlue |
If Labour win the next general ejection, which seems likely, then you’ll see Indy support drop at least 10 points.
That’s why Sturgeon is desperate to push this through now. The Tories are her bogey men. |
Interestingly, what it the Scottish media line on independence? I know that the Scottish press doesn't slavishly follow the largely English issues which dominate the Fleet Street press, but my impression is that there is little support for independence in the media in Scotland, apart from the National. Certainly, I don't think there is any Scottish TV news journalist operating anywhere in the UK who supports independence. [Post edited 24 Nov 2022 8:45]
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:48 - Nov 24 with 995 views | Darth_Koont |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:44 - Nov 24 by DJR |
Interestingly, what it the Scottish media line on independence? I know that the Scottish press doesn't slavishly follow the largely English issues which dominate the Fleet Street press, but my impression is that there is little support for independence in the media in Scotland, apart from the National. Certainly, I don't think there is any Scottish TV news journalist operating anywhere in the UK who supports independence. [Post edited 24 Nov 2022 8:45]
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They just wouldn’t get the job.
The Scottish media (and the BBC which is hardly surprising) is very pro-unionist. Some real objectivity issues and shaping of the debate there but that’s been a constant over the decades anyway. |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:56 - Nov 24 with 984 views | Churchman |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 14:09 - Nov 23 by DJR |
A much better example is Robert the Bruce and Bannockburn. |
A worse example would have been King David at Neville’s Cross. It didn’t go well….. for David. |  | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:15 - Nov 24 with 966 views | DJR |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:56 - Nov 24 by Churchman |
A worse example would have been King David at Neville’s Cross. It didn’t go well….. for David. |
When it comes to talk of freedom, the Declaration of Arbroath 1320 takes some beating.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself." | | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:26 - Nov 24 with 956 views | DJR |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 08:48 - Nov 24 by Darth_Koont |
They just wouldn’t get the job.
The Scottish media (and the BBC which is hardly surprising) is very pro-unionist. Some real objectivity issues and shaping of the debate there but that’s been a constant over the decades anyway. |
I was watching a debate the other week, perhaps on Channel 4, which had nothing to do with Scotland or independence, but a Scottish person expressed an opinion, and the whole thing turned into an anti-independence diatribe which the presenter did nothing to stop.
Sadly, it's par for the course.
Chomsky was great on this when in an interview with Andrew Marr, who claimed he was an independent journalist, Chomsky, said "I'm sure you believe everything you say.... but if you believed something different you wouldn't be sitting where you are". | | | |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:31 - Nov 24 with 949 views | WeWereZombies |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:15 - Nov 24 by DJR |
When it comes to talk of freedom, the Declaration of Arbroath 1320 takes some beating.
"for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule. It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom — for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself." |
Although the clause that describes the widespread renown of the Scots is quoted less often:
'Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed
the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today. The Britons it
first drove out, the Picts it utterly destroyed, and, even though very often
assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, it took possession '
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/research/NRS_DoA_English_booklet_700_Spreads
Note that the Britons were a tribe based around the Clyde but whose territory stretched a long way south through present day Ayrshire and into Cumbria - connections to both George Burley and Kevin Beattie no less...anyway, some of us see the declaration as something of a plea to the Pope for a land grab by some Norman barons (despite one of their number being excommunicated for murdering a challenger to the throne at the altar of a church.) | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:36 - Nov 24 with 935 views | Keno |
Is colony another word for dependency? |  |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:40 - Nov 24 with 925 views | WeWereZombies |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:36 - Nov 24 by Keno |
Is colony another word for dependency? |
Although the wind power coming down to England is doing a good job of helping United Kingdom emission targets, and the Hollow Mountain at Ben Cruachan is a lifesaver for the National Grid at peak demand, I don't think Scotland is quite the prop for the economy that it was when it dug Thatcher out of a fiscal hole back in the eighties... | |
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| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:41 - Nov 24 with 924 views | DJR |
| So now that Scotland has been confirmed as an English colony in law on 09:31 - Nov 24 by WeWereZombies |
Although the clause that describes the widespread renown of the Scots is quoted less often:
'Thence it came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed
the Red Sea, to its home in the west where it still lives today. The Britons it
first drove out, the Picts it utterly destroyed, and, even though very often
assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, it took possession '
https://www.nrscotland.gov.uk/files/research/NRS_DoA_English_booklet_700_Spreads
Note that the Britons were a tribe based around the Clyde but whose territory stretched a long way south through present day Ayrshire and into Cumbria - connections to both George Burley and Kevin Beattie no less...anyway, some of us see the declaration as something of a plea to the Pope for a land grab by some Norman barons (despite one of their number being excommunicated for murdering a challenger to the throne at the altar of a church.) |
I am aware of that passage which strikes me as being a bit of a fairy tale. I am also aware of the mongrel-like nature of the Scottish people. I don't think it is so much a case of conquest by the Scots, but an assimilation of the various tribes, coupled with the influx of the Norman barons. Nothing is simple in Scottish history. But interestingly, people of my parents' generation were never taught Scottish history.
EDIT: my dad was born in Saltcoats, so I know Ayrshire well. [Post edited 24 Nov 2022 9:46]
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