| Trump-esque on 18:53 - Nov 28 with 1106 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Trump-esque on 18:49 - Nov 28 by Swansea_Blue |
You could retain some of the jobs anyway, I’d expect. Independence doesn’t have to mean isolation from England. It would be in the interest of all home nations to have FOM and frictionless trade, so there’s no reason Scotland couldn’t still sell its ship building expertise. Whether Englandcwould agree to FOM is another question of course. |
If Scotland were to join the EU, there would have to be a hard border. Might be a contract up for expanding Hadrian's Wall. I wonder which Tory donor/family member has won it already. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 19:01 - Nov 28 with 1068 views | HARRY10 |
| Trump-esque on 16:47 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
Successive governments including Labour and the Lib Dem cameo have led to these structural and regional imbalances in the UK economy.
And how on earth is that meant to change now with the most limp, market-/establishment-fellating and austerity-talking “opposition” imaginable? There’s no point even pretending these inadequate, self-interested clowns will be adequate on that score.
Sunak or Starmer, it’s managed decline all the way. |
"Successive governments including Labour and the Lib Dem cameo have led to these structural and regional imbalances in the UK economy."
And that is the lie wee Krankie has peddled, and built much of her political career upon. The same lie the red wall numpties swallowed.
Why, if it is not the Jews, the blacks or the migrants then it is the wicked English conspiring to do us down. Christ, if I had a quid for every Scots man/woman who has told me some variation on that theme I would have................enough to pay my energy bill.
It is far easier to set up a 'bogeyman', than to explain the truth. Most of the areas now seen as deprived are areas that grew around certain industries. Ones termed heavy - steel works, ship building, coal mining. However, the same global economics that built them up, have ended them (see USA rustbelt). That is the harsh reality. Why Britain grew during the industrial revolution. Not to the workings of any particular government.
Farage peddled the same lie as wee Krankie is. Gain independence and it will be sunshine all the way. Buckfast lakes will spring forth, the porridge mines will re-open and Scotland will qualify for a major international football tournament......eventually.
Try getting her, or any of the deluded, to explain even the most basic thought of how that will work. As in 2016 you are merely met with bleats of "project fear''.
There is even talk of Scotland joining the EU - though with no explanation of how it gets it's budget deficit of 12.3% of GDP down to the EU requirement of 3%, without massive cuts.
I would say it is time for wee Krankie to come clean, but that was also the case before 2016 and we are still in the world of brexit style unquantified promises and delusions. |  | | |
| Trump-esque on 20:30 - Nov 28 with 1066 views | blueasfook |
| Trump-esque on 18:27 - Nov 28 by HARRY10 |
I know countries the size of Italy, Spain, Mexico etc have suffered badly through not having a military capability. Appears they get struck on an almost weekly . |
Italy and Spain are part of a nuclear pact though.
An attack on one is an attack on all, remember? |  |
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| Trump-esque on 20:40 - Nov 28 with 1055 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Trump-esque on 18:53 - Nov 28 by Nthsuffolkblue |
If Scotland were to join the EU, there would have to be a hard border. Might be a contract up for expanding Hadrian's Wall. I wonder which Tory donor/family member has won it already. |
Oh yeah, there is that. I forgot about that idiocy for a minute. I suspect Scotland would rather align with the EU wouldn’t they? |  |
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| Trump-esque on 21:46 - Nov 28 with 1033 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 20:30 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
Italy and Spain are part of a nuclear pact though.
An attack on one is an attack on all, remember? |
But they get that benefit without themselves having nuclear weapons, as we would if we gave them up. |  | | |
| Trump-esque on 21:49 - Nov 28 with 1026 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 19:01 - Nov 28 by HARRY10 |
"Successive governments including Labour and the Lib Dem cameo have led to these structural and regional imbalances in the UK economy."
And that is the lie wee Krankie has peddled, and built much of her political career upon. The same lie the red wall numpties swallowed.
Why, if it is not the Jews, the blacks or the migrants then it is the wicked English conspiring to do us down. Christ, if I had a quid for every Scots man/woman who has told me some variation on that theme I would have................enough to pay my energy bill.
It is far easier to set up a 'bogeyman', than to explain the truth. Most of the areas now seen as deprived are areas that grew around certain industries. Ones termed heavy - steel works, ship building, coal mining. However, the same global economics that built them up, have ended them (see USA rustbelt). That is the harsh reality. Why Britain grew during the industrial revolution. Not to the workings of any particular government.
Farage peddled the same lie as wee Krankie is. Gain independence and it will be sunshine all the way. Buckfast lakes will spring forth, the porridge mines will re-open and Scotland will qualify for a major international football tournament......eventually.
Try getting her, or any of the deluded, to explain even the most basic thought of how that will work. As in 2016 you are merely met with bleats of "project fear''.
There is even talk of Scotland joining the EU - though with no explanation of how it gets it's budget deficit of 12.3% of GDP down to the EU requirement of 3%, without massive cuts.
I would say it is time for wee Krankie to come clean, but that was also the case before 2016 and we are still in the world of brexit style unquantified promises and delusions. |
I'm not sure you do your cause much good with references to wee Krankie, porridge mines, the deluded and Buckfast lakes. | | | |
| Trump-esque on 21:58 - Nov 28 with 989 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 18:49 - Nov 28 by Swansea_Blue |
You could retain some of the jobs anyway, I’d expect. Independence doesn’t have to mean isolation from England. It would be in the interest of all home nations to have FOM and frictionless trade, so there’s no reason Scotland couldn’t still sell its ship building expertise. Whether Englandcwould agree to FOM is another question of course. |
I think FOM for UK and Irish citizens would be a given, given the Irish precedent and the interdependency of and intermingling between the constituent parts of the UK. Indeed, unless and until Scotland joined the EU (which could take some time), there would equally be a case for frictionless trade. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 22:01]
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| Trump-esque on 21:58 - Nov 28 with 989 views | jeera |
| Trump-esque on 18:27 - Nov 28 by HARRY10 |
I know countries the size of Italy, Spain, Mexico etc have suffered badly through not having a military capability. Appears they get struck on an almost weekly . |
For goodness' sake Harry.
I've said there that first and foremost it pays to have a society worth saving.
If you're going to reply to a post then at least try to make it relevant mate. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 22:04 - Nov 28 with 974 views | jeera |
| Trump-esque on 21:46 - Nov 28 by DJR |
But they get that benefit without themselves having nuclear weapons, as we would if we gave them up. |
If the UK pulled out of the deal then that would water down the response somewhat dontcha think though?
Then you're also relying on others to speak up/act on your behalf.
Fact is, Putin has got away with making direct nuclear threats to the West and we've cowered in response. What would someone like him be like if we had no response equal to his? It's quite possible it's only the deterrent that has stopped him going to the point of no return and even then we've felt uncertain.
Naturally the world would be better off if none of them existed but that's not gonna happen any time soon and the capability to rebuild will always be there. | |
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| Trump-esque on 08:56 - Nov 29 with 893 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 19:01 - Nov 28 by HARRY10 |
"Successive governments including Labour and the Lib Dem cameo have led to these structural and regional imbalances in the UK economy."
And that is the lie wee Krankie has peddled, and built much of her political career upon. The same lie the red wall numpties swallowed.
Why, if it is not the Jews, the blacks or the migrants then it is the wicked English conspiring to do us down. Christ, if I had a quid for every Scots man/woman who has told me some variation on that theme I would have................enough to pay my energy bill.
It is far easier to set up a 'bogeyman', than to explain the truth. Most of the areas now seen as deprived are areas that grew around certain industries. Ones termed heavy - steel works, ship building, coal mining. However, the same global economics that built them up, have ended them (see USA rustbelt). That is the harsh reality. Why Britain grew during the industrial revolution. Not to the workings of any particular government.
Farage peddled the same lie as wee Krankie is. Gain independence and it will be sunshine all the way. Buckfast lakes will spring forth, the porridge mines will re-open and Scotland will qualify for a major international football tournament......eventually.
Try getting her, or any of the deluded, to explain even the most basic thought of how that will work. As in 2016 you are merely met with bleats of "project fear''.
There is even talk of Scotland joining the EU - though with no explanation of how it gets it's budget deficit of 12.3% of GDP down to the EU requirement of 3%, without massive cuts.
I would say it is time for wee Krankie to come clean, but that was also the case before 2016 and we are still in the world of brexit style unquantified promises and delusions. |
How have ALL Scotland’s neighbours done significantly better over the past 50 years if it’s just “global economics”?
I’ve asked the same question on several occasions and no-one has been able to answer it. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 09:04 - Nov 29 with 878 views | giant_stow |
| Trump-esque on 08:56 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont |
How have ALL Scotland’s neighbours done significantly better over the past 50 years if it’s just “global economics”?
I’ve asked the same question on several occasions and no-one has been able to answer it. |
What's your answer, out of interest? |  |
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| Trump-esque on 09:13 - Nov 29 with 872 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 22:04 - Nov 28 by jeera |
If the UK pulled out of the deal then that would water down the response somewhat dontcha think though?
Then you're also relying on others to speak up/act on your behalf.
Fact is, Putin has got away with making direct nuclear threats to the West and we've cowered in response. What would someone like him be like if we had no response equal to his? It's quite possible it's only the deterrent that has stopped him going to the point of no return and even then we've felt uncertain.
Naturally the world would be better off if none of them existed but that's not gonna happen any time soon and the capability to rebuild will always be there. |
Obviously, we take a different line on this, but I am not convinced our 225 nuclear missiles make much difference in the scheme of things when Russian and the US have many thousands each.
France has slightly more nuclear weapons than us, but I am sure hanging on to their and our nuclear weapons plays a big part in our respective determination to remain a permanent member of the UN Security Council. | | | |
| Trump-esque on 09:15 - Nov 29 with 857 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 09:04 - Nov 29 by giant_stow |
What's your answer, out of interest? |
Perhaps Ireland is a good example because, as an English-speaking independent nation, it has managed to attract the European headquarters of many US tech companies. | | | |
| Trump-esque on 09:16 - Nov 29 with 854 views | giant_stow |
| Trump-esque on 11:30 - Nov 27 by Swansea_Blue |
I'm not sure they're that similar are they? The nationalist movements within the UK only seem to have a single 'enemy' in UK rule. And there's some justification for that given how they have been treated. For the avoidance of doubt, I'm talking about the people driving the movement, the politicians and not the inevitable numpties who align with them and then behave like idiots - you get those in all walks of life.
Brexit had the single enemy in the EU, but as we've seen it's underpinned by something a lot darker - making enemies of anyone 'not like us'. It's a negative, inward-looking, xenophobic at best and racist at worst movement. It's a vehicle for decreased accountability, an executive power grab at the cost of parliamentary democracy and fundamentally is removing rights and opportunities for British people whilst making the country as a whole poorer. The recent announcement on possible foreign students sums that up a treat - considering trashing one of our genuinely world class sectors because 'foRrinErs'.
The Scottish and Welsh governments seem much more outward looking and have policies that in the main are founded more in social justice and equality. (Although worth noting that the Welsh Government is supportive of the Union, but Plaid's policies similarly outward looking and more social progressive (for want of a better word)).
That's not to say there aren't issues of course. There's certainly elements of nasty anti-English xenophobia amongst some of the more militant activists associated with these movements. |
Sorry Mr, managed to forget this thread. Fair points, but I'm wondering how the nationalist movements have been treated badly?
I'm not sure the snp have been any more outward looking than the brexiteers either. Both appeal to a sense of injustice in their base, while both have said they're outward looking - snp to Europe, bexiters to non-europe.
I'd also wonder how progressive or at least competent the snp is, as from what I can tell, Scotland is lagging England led by dirty tories on several social health and wellbeing indicators, and that despite having a higher public spend per head. After all these years of rule, shouldn't some these grievances the snp plays on be directed inward? [Post edited 29 Nov 2022 9:27]
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| Trump-esque on 09:20 - Nov 29 with 844 views | giant_stow |
| Trump-esque on 09:15 - Nov 29 by DJR |
Perhaps Ireland is a good example because, as an English-speaking independent nation, it has managed to attract the European headquarters of many US tech companies. |
I don't know how many tax havens Europe can make use of though, so maybe that route is not open to Scotland? Fair enough though - Scotland has incomplete power over tax ad it stands, but I justbthough the snp vision wad a little more socially focused than business based. | |
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| Trump-esque on 09:29 - Nov 29 with 831 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 09:04 - Nov 29 by giant_stow |
What's your answer, out of interest? |
Essentially that they’re all countries with the benefit of being in Northwest Europe and part of a major economic powerhouse region. But with independence, they’ve got the sovereignty, flexibility and borrowing capacity to find their place and grow.
The UK regions are strapped along for the ride and whatever suits the ridiculously centralised UK economy. Although more accurately, it’s whatever suits the interests of those who have the most political and economic power, as the UK economy itself hasn’t been all that well served either.
Your turn. | |
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| Trump-esque on 09:33 - Nov 29 with 822 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump-esque on 16:47 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
Successive governments including Labour and the Lib Dem cameo have led to these structural and regional imbalances in the UK economy.
And how on earth is that meant to change now with the most limp, market-/establishment-fellating and austerity-talking “opposition” imaginable? There’s no point even pretending these inadequate, self-interested clowns will be adequate on that score.
Sunak or Starmer, it’s managed decline all the way. |
Sorry, didn't realise my reply to this hadn't gone through yesterday. Although I don't really have a lot to add because it's old ground we've been over before. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 09:34 - Nov 29 with 815 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 09:20 - Nov 29 by giant_stow |
I don't know how many tax havens Europe can make use of though, so maybe that route is not open to Scotland? Fair enough though - Scotland has incomplete power over tax ad it stands, but I justbthough the snp vision wad a little more socially focused than business based. |
I am not sure if it is just Ireland's tax regime that plays a part: an educated English-speaking workforce also appears to be a significant factor.
As regards the SNP, it probably suits its purposes to be regarded as socially focused because that helps to attract former Labour voters. But I imagine an independent Scotland will only succeed with greater inward-investment, meaning it will have to be pro-business as well. | | | |
| Trump-esque on 09:35 - Nov 29 with 808 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump-esque on 09:15 - Nov 29 by DJR |
Perhaps Ireland is a good example because, as an English-speaking independent nation, it has managed to attract the European headquarters of many US tech companies. |
Ireland is a low-tax economy though, which is at odds with much of the Scottish electorate.
And given the lack of language barrier, the risk of capital flight from an independent Scotland to the UK is arguably greater than from the UK post-Brexit, which would lead to even lower taxes. | |
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| Trump-esque on 09:52 - Nov 29 with 775 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 09:20 - Nov 29 by giant_stow |
I don't know how many tax havens Europe can make use of though, so maybe that route is not open to Scotland? Fair enough though - Scotland has incomplete power over tax ad it stands, but I justbthough the snp vision wad a little more socially focused than business based. |
Scotland doesn’t need to go down the Ireland route. In the 70s and 80s, Ireland was still decades behind the rest of Northwestern Europe in terms of infrastructure, industry and anything like a diversified economy. So attracting foreign investment and in financial or new tech sectors through low tax was a pretty clear path.
Scotland should be looking more to Scandinavia where they share the same range of underlying advantages and potential resources but more concentrated in Scotland than any of them individually. Then add in the English language, tourism and the “brand” recognition.
Despite having much greater natural resources, Scotland won’t catch up with Denmark anytime soon. But as Denmark’s economy is fully twice as big, even making up 10% of that difference as an independent nation would be worth an extra 20 billion per year.
It’s as part of the UK without anything like the autonomy needed that the numbers really haven’t been adding up.
Edit: And we’re also comparing where Scotland’s economy will be in 5-10 years in either scenario. We know that Scotland’s economy needs migration to develop so being chained to a xenophobic, anti-immigration mentality where Freedom of Movement is off the table couldn’t be a worse direction to be forced into. [Post edited 29 Nov 2022 10:05]
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| Trump-esque on 10:22 - Nov 29 with 752 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 09:52 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont |
Scotland doesn’t need to go down the Ireland route. In the 70s and 80s, Ireland was still decades behind the rest of Northwestern Europe in terms of infrastructure, industry and anything like a diversified economy. So attracting foreign investment and in financial or new tech sectors through low tax was a pretty clear path.
Scotland should be looking more to Scandinavia where they share the same range of underlying advantages and potential resources but more concentrated in Scotland than any of them individually. Then add in the English language, tourism and the “brand” recognition.
Despite having much greater natural resources, Scotland won’t catch up with Denmark anytime soon. But as Denmark’s economy is fully twice as big, even making up 10% of that difference as an independent nation would be worth an extra 20 billion per year.
It’s as part of the UK without anything like the autonomy needed that the numbers really haven’t been adding up.
Edit: And we’re also comparing where Scotland’s economy will be in 5-10 years in either scenario. We know that Scotland’s economy needs migration to develop so being chained to a xenophobic, anti-immigration mentality where Freedom of Movement is off the table couldn’t be a worse direction to be forced into. [Post edited 29 Nov 2022 10:05]
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When you say natural resources, I assume you are including wind power, where Scotland could presumably become a substantial exporter of clean electricity. | | | |
| Trump-esque on 10:42 - Nov 29 with 739 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 10:22 - Nov 29 by DJR |
When you say natural resources, I assume you are including wind power, where Scotland could presumably become a substantial exporter of clean electricity. |
Yes – wind, water and hopefully tidal too. Then there’s also ample space to reforest and use much more wood, pulp and paper.
With climate change and the ensuing energy, water and human challenges facing the world there are few places better suited. As much as it pains me to say.
The fossil fuel aspect is what we need to wean ourselves off. But that appears to be the Scottish government plan and increasingly the North Sea is looking more important to the UK government and treasury as it’s not treated as Scotland’s revenue anyway. | |
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| Trump-esque on 10:52 - Nov 29 with 721 views | giant_stow |
| Trump-esque on 10:42 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont |
Yes – wind, water and hopefully tidal too. Then there’s also ample space to reforest and use much more wood, pulp and paper.
With climate change and the ensuing energy, water and human challenges facing the world there are few places better suited. As much as it pains me to say.
The fossil fuel aspect is what we need to wean ourselves off. But that appears to be the Scottish government plan and increasingly the North Sea is looking more important to the UK government and treasury as it’s not treated as Scotland’s revenue anyway. |
For the little it's worth, I think you're right about Scotland's natural resources. Even the pumping of water down south to drought struck England might easily become a thing - please charge mates rates. | |
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| Trump-esque on 11:53 - Nov 29 with 684 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 10:52 - Nov 29 by giant_stow |
For the little it's worth, I think you're right about Scotland's natural resources. Even the pumping of water down south to drought struck England might easily become a thing - please charge mates rates. |
I’ll put in a word.
We’ll forgive and forget the mistakes of the past. Not a lot anyone can do about that now. But maybe lay off the current gaslighting about how lucky Scotland is to be in the UK and how we’ll be screwed on our own?
Especially if none of you can actually explain any of that in relation to the real world. | |
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| Trump-esque on 12:04 - Nov 29 with 641 views | giant_stow |
| Trump-esque on 11:53 - Nov 29 by Darth_Koont |
I’ll put in a word.
We’ll forgive and forget the mistakes of the past. Not a lot anyone can do about that now. But maybe lay off the current gaslighting about how lucky Scotland is to be in the UK and how we’ll be screwed on our own?
Especially if none of you can actually explain any of that in relation to the real world. |
Thats very good of you.
Personally, my opinion softened over Scottish independence - if you guys can prove a consistent majority supporting it, I'm sure you'll get another shot at it. Whether you'd be better off or not depends on the time-scale and the quality of future Scottish governance I spose. Pretty sure it would be a tough start to independent life though, so it would be best of the SNP were honest about that (or just be considered as more shoddy politicos) | |
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