| Trump-esque on 14:33 - Nov 27 with 1894 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Trump-esque on 14:14 - Nov 27 by SpruceMoose |
Thank you for mansplaining the situation in America to me!
Probably best to just put your hands up to this one GB, it was a poor choice of comparison. |
Where have I done that. My reply to you was explaining the situation is Scotland. You know? The place where [b}I live, and have done so for thirty years. So if there is any masnplaining going on it appears to be from the opposite direction.
You're replying to my post which was a reply to ArnoldMoorhen.
Would you care to address the Scottish Labour leader saying that Sturgeon ‘risks fuelling violence after court ruling’ ot the Lib Dems saying that her rhetoric post High Court ruling was 'straight out of the Trump playbook'?
Ho about the examples of bullying and intimidation of BBC journalists by members of the SNP, cheered on by it leaders?
There was enough content in my post for you to nat least make comment on. [Post edited 27 Nov 2022 15:10]
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| Trump-esque on 14:39 - Nov 27 with 1878 views | monytowbray |
Person who declared BLM and social unrest due to the murder of yet another innocent PoC at the hands of the USA police state/industrial prison complex a bunch of “Middle Class White Boys” still doesn’t understand why the world isn’t exactly as his decades of Conversative/Colonial propaganda claims it is.
Shocked. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 17:49 - Nov 27 with 1794 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Trump-esque on 19:49 - Nov 26 by Kievthegreat |
I think he's mostly right about the case, but misunderstood the SNP motives. The SNP knew that they couldn't hold a referendum unilaterally and that is why they asked for a review. The government in Westminster knew this too and that was why they petitioned that the court shouldn't make a judgement yet as the act had not passed yet.
What the court ruling shows is that any mandate given by the Scottish electorate is irrelevant as Westminster will still hold the keys to any referendum. That is a massive democratic failing and perfect ammunition for the SNP and an embarrassment for Westminster. Some might call it a cynical way of showing this to the public, but it is highlighting a major flaw in devolution and any route to leaving the UK. |
One of the first parts of the UN charter is the principle of self-determination. It's pretty poor that some western European countries still deny this to their people (see also: Spain and Catalonia). |  | | |
| Trump-esque on 17:51 - Nov 27 with 1785 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Trump-esque on 17:49 - Nov 27 by Clapham_Junction |
One of the first parts of the UN charter is the principle of self-determination. It's pretty poor that some western European countries still deny this to their people (see also: Spain and Catalonia). |
How often should people get to decide on this? When is our next referendum to decide whether to re-join the EU? |  |
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| Trump-esque on 10:09 - Nov 28 with 1719 views | DJR |
My understanding is that the right to protest is one of the cornerstones of liberal western democracies, so to describe it as Trump-esque seems a little bit off the mark.
I have two Scottish parents, so took a keen interest in the independence referendum. I started off with no particular view one way or the other, but the obvious anti-independence stance of the entire UK media made me throw my weight behind the pro-independence cause.
As far as I can see, the only non-anti-independence media outlet in the UK is the National, which I appreciate is a bit over the top, so it is not surprising that those pro-independence in Scotland feel rather disgruntled about the media, where a pro-establishment, pro-Union stance is the norm. Indeed, as Noam Chomsky said to Andrew Marr (a Scottish unionist) "if you believed something different, you wouldn't be sitting where you are today". |  | | |
| Trump-esque on 15:42 - Nov 28 with 1661 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 10:09 - Nov 28 by DJR |
My understanding is that the right to protest is one of the cornerstones of liberal western democracies, so to describe it as Trump-esque seems a little bit off the mark.
I have two Scottish parents, so took a keen interest in the independence referendum. I started off with no particular view one way or the other, but the obvious anti-independence stance of the entire UK media made me throw my weight behind the pro-independence cause.
As far as I can see, the only non-anti-independence media outlet in the UK is the National, which I appreciate is a bit over the top, so it is not surprising that those pro-independence in Scotland feel rather disgruntled about the media, where a pro-establishment, pro-Union stance is the norm. Indeed, as Noam Chomsky said to Andrew Marr (a Scottish unionist) "if you believed something different, you wouldn't be sitting where you are today". |
Interesting to consider the extent to which the nuclear deterrent plays an important part in the establishment desire for Scotland to remain part of the UK, although I am not sure much has been made of the issue.
This article https://www.navylookout.com/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtual includes a couple of telling passages.
"It is clear an independent Scotland would be a disaster for UK defence and the Royal Navy in particular. As Britain moves towards a future outside the EU, it is critical that a strong Union is maintained which would benefit us all. The UK Trident system is critical to the defence of Europe, the UK and Scotland."
"It is hard not to conclude that if an independent Scotland will not allow nuclear weapons to remain on its soil this would probably signal the end of the British nuclear deterrent." [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 15:45]
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| Trump-esque on 16:10 - Nov 28 with 1611 views | blueasfook |
| Trump-esque on 15:42 - Nov 28 by DJR |
Interesting to consider the extent to which the nuclear deterrent plays an important part in the establishment desire for Scotland to remain part of the UK, although I am not sure much has been made of the issue.
This article https://www.navylookout.com/why-relocating-trident-away-from-scotland-is-virtual includes a couple of telling passages.
"It is clear an independent Scotland would be a disaster for UK defence and the Royal Navy in particular. As Britain moves towards a future outside the EU, it is critical that a strong Union is maintained which would benefit us all. The UK Trident system is critical to the defence of Europe, the UK and Scotland."
"It is hard not to conclude that if an independent Scotland will not allow nuclear weapons to remain on its soil this would probably signal the end of the British nuclear deterrent." [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 15:45]
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I doubt we (the UK) would cancel Trident just because we have to find a new home for the subs and infrastructure.
Yes, it would be painful but a location would be found. It would also mean the loss of around 6,000 jobs in Scotland - that is just people directly employeed on the base at Faslane.
I also imagine they'd lose the contracts of building naval surface ships at facilities on the Clyde. Such as the current type 26 frigates etc, also meaning the loss of thousands of Scottish jobs.
Not so much a case of Scotland having wesminster by the balls, more a case of Scotland shooting itself in the foot. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 16:16 - Nov 28 with 1603 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 16:10 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
I doubt we (the UK) would cancel Trident just because we have to find a new home for the subs and infrastructure.
Yes, it would be painful but a location would be found. It would also mean the loss of around 6,000 jobs in Scotland - that is just people directly employeed on the base at Faslane.
I also imagine they'd lose the contracts of building naval surface ships at facilities on the Clyde. Such as the current type 26 frigates etc, also meaning the loss of thousands of Scottish jobs.
Not so much a case of Scotland having wesminster by the balls, more a case of Scotland shooting itself in the foot. |
We currently have to pay for it anyway. Just spend the money on other stuff and other jobs. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 16:31 - Nov 28 with 1570 views | tractordownsouth |
I don't think the protest itself is Trump-esque, instead I see greater similarities between Sturgeon's strategy on independence and the Tory plan to send asylum seekers to Rwanda*. She pledged an independence referendum in the Scottish Parliament elections knowing that she didn't have the legal power to deliver it. The purpose wasn't to make it happen, it was primarily to further fuel the anti-Westminster rhetoric, just as the illegality of the Rwanda plan has allowed the Tories to continue their attacks on the ECHR and "lefty lawyers."
*Not that the issues are the same. I don't agree with the SNP or independence, but I just see it as bad economics whereas Braverman and the Rwanda policy are morally wrong. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 16:32]
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| Trump-esque on 16:34 - Nov 28 with 1555 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 16:31 - Nov 28 by tractordownsouth |
I don't think the protest itself is Trump-esque, instead I see greater similarities between Sturgeon's strategy on independence and the Tory plan to send asylum seekers to Rwanda*. She pledged an independence referendum in the Scottish Parliament elections knowing that she didn't have the legal power to deliver it. The purpose wasn't to make it happen, it was primarily to further fuel the anti-Westminster rhetoric, just as the illegality of the Rwanda plan has allowed the Tories to continue their attacks on the ECHR and "lefty lawyers."
*Not that the issues are the same. I don't agree with the SNP or independence, but I just see it as bad economics whereas Braverman and the Rwanda policy are morally wrong. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 16:32]
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The economics of staying in the UK are even worse though. Every single one of our neighbours is doing much better as a smaller country within the EU.
Instead you have to look to the former Eastern Bloc states to find comparable economies to the UK regions. | |
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| Trump-esque on 16:36 - Nov 28 with 1550 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump-esque on 16:34 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
The economics of staying in the UK are even worse though. Every single one of our neighbours is doing much better as a smaller country within the EU.
Instead you have to look to the former Eastern Bloc states to find comparable economies to the UK regions. |
We'll no doubt disagree on this, but I'd argue that's mostly down to the government the UK has, rather than the UK itself. | |
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| Trump-esque on 16:43 - Nov 28 with 1535 views | blueasfook |
| Trump-esque on 16:16 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
We currently have to pay for it anyway. Just spend the money on other stuff and other jobs. |
I'd rather have a nuclear deterrent thanks. | |
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| Trump-esque on 16:47 - Nov 28 with 1515 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 16:36 - Nov 28 by tractordownsouth |
We'll no doubt disagree on this, but I'd argue that's mostly down to the government the UK has, rather than the UK itself. |
Successive governments including Labour and the Lib Dem cameo have led to these structural and regional imbalances in the UK economy.
And how on earth is that meant to change now with the most limp, market-/establishment-fellating and austerity-talking “opposition” imaginable? There’s no point even pretending these inadequate, self-interested clowns will be adequate on that score.
Sunak or Starmer, it’s managed decline all the way. | |
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| Trump-esque on 16:48 - Nov 28 with 1509 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Trump-esque on 16:36 - Nov 28 by tractordownsouth |
We'll no doubt disagree on this, but I'd argue that's mostly down to the government the UK has, rather than the UK itself. |
And remaining outside the Eurozone which the only realistic alternative to the current Government appears determined to do too so as not to alienate the voters it has already lost (and possibly wooed back?) any further. | |
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| Trump-esque on 16:51 - Nov 28 with 1503 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 16:43 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
I'd rather have a nuclear deterrent thanks. |
Fair enough. Although the vast majority of countries in Europe don’t have their own nuclear deterrent. | |
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| Trump-esque on 16:53 - Nov 28 with 1497 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Trump-esque on 16:34 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
The economics of staying in the UK are even worse though. Every single one of our neighbours is doing much better as a smaller country within the EU.
Instead you have to look to the former Eastern Bloc states to find comparable economies to the UK regions. |
EU GDP growth rate is is projected to be 0.3pc next year. US is about 4x that, perhaps Scotland can join as the 51st state. Probably more likely to be accepted too… |  | | |
| Trump-esque on 16:57 - Nov 28 with 1491 views | Darth_Koont |
| Trump-esque on 16:53 - Nov 28 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
EU GDP growth rate is is projected to be 0.3pc next year. US is about 4x that, perhaps Scotland can join as the 51st state. Probably more likely to be accepted too… |
No, I’m talking about the comparative growth of their economies over years. That wouldn’t change as a poor US state just like it hasn’t worked as a poor UK region. | |
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| Trump-esque on 17:06 - Nov 28 with 1467 views | DJR |
| Trump-esque on 16:43 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
I'd rather have a nuclear deterrent thanks. |
Do you really think it keeps us safe? We rely overwhelmingly on US conventional and nuclear weapons for our defence. In my view, the nuclear deterrent is one further thing which gives us ideas above our station.
EDIT: if you believe Johnson and Sunak, Ukraine would have fallen by now but for UK assistance.
FURTHER EDIT: what is it with the UK and its obsession with the military? I think it must have its origins in the public school system where the KIng, "my country, right or wrong" and the cadet system, fuels it all. This in turn feeds through to the top universities, and thus influences people who have not gone through the public school system. And sadly, the cannon fodder and those lower down the system lap it all up too, influenced in no small part by the media. [Post edited 28 Nov 2022 17:35]
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| Trump-esque on 17:21 - Nov 28 with 1444 views | jeera |
| Trump-esque on 16:51 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
Fair enough. Although the vast majority of countries in Europe don’t have their own nuclear deterrent. |
Although it's a subject I've wavered on a few times, usually depending on the climate at the time[!], I'm still just about in the pro-nuclear deterrent camp.
But I cannot fathom how the UK can afford it at a rate of approx 2 billion per year when we say there is no money to house people and apparently not even the 50 million available that was promised for MND research.
Got to have a society worth saving, first and foremost. |  |
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| Trump-esque on 17:31 - Nov 28 with 1418 views | tractordownsouth |
| Trump-esque on 16:48 - Nov 28 by Nthsuffolkblue |
And remaining outside the Eurozone which the only realistic alternative to the current Government appears determined to do too so as not to alienate the voters it has already lost (and possibly wooed back?) any further. |
I think if Labour win, we'll end up back in the single market in the second term. As much as I'd like them to make that pledge in 2024, I can understand why the focus is geared towards compromising in the short-term to win power.
That's just a hunch though. | |
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| Trump-esque on 17:36 - Nov 28 with 1406 views | jeera |
| Trump-esque on 17:31 - Nov 28 by tractordownsouth |
I think if Labour win, we'll end up back in the single market in the second term. As much as I'd like them to make that pledge in 2024, I can understand why the focus is geared towards compromising in the short-term to win power.
That's just a hunch though. |
The madness being of course that the promise to make that happen isn't a potential vote winner in itself.
There must still be significant perceived resistance to the concept whereas anything promising a return to that lifeline for our economy should be grasped at with all available digits. | |
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| Trump-esque on 18:14 - Nov 28 with 1380 views | ArnoldMoorhen |
| Trump-esque on 16:10 - Nov 28 by blueasfook |
I doubt we (the UK) would cancel Trident just because we have to find a new home for the subs and infrastructure.
Yes, it would be painful but a location would be found. It would also mean the loss of around 6,000 jobs in Scotland - that is just people directly employeed on the base at Faslane.
I also imagine they'd lose the contracts of building naval surface ships at facilities on the Clyde. Such as the current type 26 frigates etc, also meaning the loss of thousands of Scottish jobs.
Not so much a case of Scotland having wesminster by the balls, more a case of Scotland shooting itself in the foot. |
I'm interested in which English or Welsh Estuary you are proposing to house Trident should Scotland go Independent?
Northern Ireland should be discounted, because of the complexity of the situation there.
Which leaves England and Wales. | | | |
| Trump-esque on 18:27 - Nov 28 with 1357 views | HARRY10 |
| Trump-esque on 17:21 - Nov 28 by jeera |
Although it's a subject I've wavered on a few times, usually depending on the climate at the time[!], I'm still just about in the pro-nuclear deterrent camp.
But I cannot fathom how the UK can afford it at a rate of approx 2 billion per year when we say there is no money to house people and apparently not even the 50 million available that was promised for MND research.
Got to have a society worth saving, first and foremost. |
I know countries the size of Italy, Spain, Mexico etc have suffered badly through not having a military capability. Appears they get struck on an almost weekly . | | | |
| Trump-esque on 18:47 - Nov 28 with 1345 views | Nthsuffolkblue |
| Trump-esque on 18:14 - Nov 28 by ArnoldMoorhen |
I'm interested in which English or Welsh Estuary you are proposing to house Trident should Scotland go Independent?
Northern Ireland should be discounted, because of the complexity of the situation there.
Which leaves England and Wales. |
I would imagine there are a few estuaries north or south of Sizewell that they would happily choose. Probably northerly and bringing much-needed funding and hope to some of the most deprived areas in Europe.
Truth is, it isn't going to happen any time soon anyway. | |
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| Trump-esque on 18:49 - Nov 28 with 1341 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Trump-esque on 16:16 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont |
We currently have to pay for it anyway. Just spend the money on other stuff and other jobs. |
You could retain some of the jobs anyway, I’d expect. Independence doesn’t have to mean isolation from England. It would be in the interest of all home nations to have FOM and frictionless trade, so there’s no reason Scotland couldn’t still sell its ship building expertise. Whether Englandcwould agree to FOM is another question of course. |  |
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