| Stadium development thoughts 08:37 - May 27 with 8587 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
Reading up about stadium development, it is generally reckoned that a stand has a lifespan of 50 years. The Cobbold is now over 50 years old. As far as we know, the stand capacities are:
Cobbold 6500
Magnus 8000-8500
SBR 7000
SAR 7500
give or take a few hundred.
If anyone has an up to date cost of building a stand in England, it would be good to know. In the data I've read, from 2016, cost was estimated at £1000 to £2000 per seat for a basic stand. The Emirates cost £6500 per seat, for a superb modern stadium, but that was completed in 2007 and building costs have skyrocketed since then.
To bring in more revenue, would the new stand need to include conference or hotel facilities? Stadium MK make good revenue from that. How many seats would we need to make a real difference? I reckon it would need to increase capacity by 5,000, so would need to be a stand capable of holding 11,500. At say £5k per seat, that's gotta be a £60M investment. More if hotel and conference facilities are included. Plus permission and the costs of rerouting Portman road eastwards. Big, big decisions. I wonder where GC20's ambitions are? |  |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 13:52 - May 27 with 2988 views | azuremerlangus |
| Stadium development thoughts on 10:40 - May 27 by Churchman |
I agree with your summary. I believe there is an opportunity to drive revenue from such things as conferencing, venue hire, ‘away days’, local community stuff in Ipswich. It’s the difference between a facility that hosts 23 home games and little else and something that can also do the above.
You are not going to replicate say the media centre of the Oval, the facilities at Spurs and Arsenal etc but you can do something more regional, with its own identity and attraction. In terms of accessibility, nowhere is that easy to get to in this country and none if it is cheap.
The situation now is different to the Sheepshanks time or Cobbold’s 82 West Stand/Pioneer come to that finance and opportunity wise. By buying the Staples land the owners have shown their intent. The stadium does need a lot of work, co-operation with the LA and lateral thinking to improve it.
I agree with a capacity of 35,000 - that feels right to me. Once they’ve decided on what they are going to do the first challenge is the Cobbold/Portman/East Stand. 52 years old, it shows its age, particularly inside. Is it as decrepit as Birmingham’s? Can it be redeveloped without replacement, assuming they cannot move the stand back? Lots of questions, no answers, but it’s very exciting. |
Not much wrong with the Cobbold stand other than it is dated and therefore due its turn.
35-36k seems about right to me too, meaning it will roughly double in capacity as well as having better facilities. Anything bigger won’t make financial or physical sense compared with rest of the ground, and perhaps the corner with SBR might get properly developed (an away fans corner?).
I get there is lot of wariness to ground development given our history but without it we would now have a capacity of 16.5k - nearly half what we have now. Imagine the revenue we would be losing if that was the case next season? |  |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 15:20 - May 27 with 2907 views | southnorfolkblue |
| Stadium development thoughts on 10:31 - May 27 by Horsham |
My hope is the current owners understand that making a compromise between investments in the team and stadium do not make huge sense and they do both! |
Stadium would be way down the list of my priorities tbh. If we get promoted to the PL, the TV money will dwarf our gate receipts, so I don’t see the commercial sense in spending tens of millions of pounds to secure what may be a modest increase in revenue….and that presupposes that gates hold up. We’ve spent the majority of the last 20 years rattling around in the stadium. I obviously don’t want this to happen but we could lose some of our new found fans as quickly as we got them.
Sorry if this sounds pessimistic but Stadium redevelopment has not been our strong point over the years! |  |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 15:33 - May 27 with 2869 views | Churchman |
| Stadium development thoughts on 15:20 - May 27 by southnorfolkblue |
Stadium would be way down the list of my priorities tbh. If we get promoted to the PL, the TV money will dwarf our gate receipts, so I don’t see the commercial sense in spending tens of millions of pounds to secure what may be a modest increase in revenue….and that presupposes that gates hold up. We’ve spent the majority of the last 20 years rattling around in the stadium. I obviously don’t want this to happen but we could lose some of our new found fans as quickly as we got them.
Sorry if this sounds pessimistic but Stadium redevelopment has not been our strong point over the years! |
I think facilities are important. One of the factors in Brighton’s brilliant success has been their stadium. Obviously running the club well is key, but operating in a decaying old stadium that can only hold football matches accommodating a limiting number reasonably is a limiter.
A new stadium is out of the question but renovation of the old (not just a makeover and clean) is imperative to the future of the club in my view. Under investment in all aspects of the club in the last 20 years is the precise reason why we were in L1 and heading to L2 before GC20 bought Evans out. |  | | |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:00 - May 27 with 2849 views | Ryorry |
| Stadium development thoughts on 10:15 - May 27 by Horsham |
Someone with more imagination than me would have to figure what additional facilities could be provided to make the stadium a 365 revenue generator, I just think the notion of conferencing might not be the best idea, perhaps something versatile that can provide those kind of facilities but I’d suspect that the focus needs to be the Ipswich/Suffolk community.
In terms of the capacity it’s times like this when we are hitting capacity that you think maybe we can make a leap in terms of the long term size of the club. If we’re at a point where potential new supporters cannot obtain tickets then we may lose those supporters.
If you accept there’s always a degree of attrition in the support where it’s inevitable some will drift away then surely it’s important that you keep availability open to the more casual fan and potential new fans who may become the regulars to replace those that drift away.
I think the funding comes from the ownership rather than new debt or it doesn’t happen at all personally. The current ownership have access to the funds and essentially a vehicle for investing cash rather than taking on debt. If the owners are replaced by new owners then who knows! |
Arts centre? Suffolk already clearly has strong tradition with music & art - room for something maybe a bit more alternative & inclusive - rock, world music, modern sculpture garden, theatre (perhaps including an outdoor Greek-style ampitheatre)?
The Sage Theatre in Gateshead quickly took off & has become a popular venue -
https://sagegateshead.com/ |  |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 16:12 - May 27 with 2829 views | LegendofthePhoenix |
| Stadium development thoughts on 15:33 - May 27 by Churchman |
I think facilities are important. One of the factors in Brighton’s brilliant success has been their stadium. Obviously running the club well is key, but operating in a decaying old stadium that can only hold football matches accommodating a limiting number reasonably is a limiter.
A new stadium is out of the question but renovation of the old (not just a makeover and clean) is imperative to the future of the club in my view. Under investment in all aspects of the club in the last 20 years is the precise reason why we were in L1 and heading to L2 before GC20 bought Evans out. |
Yes - ME couldn't see the point of having a decent stadium, and over years that decline just precipitates gloom, despondency and a general decline. GC20 completely get that football is an entertainment industry. People want to enjoy the whole experience. When you can't get past people as there isn't enough legroom space, can't get to the toilets, can't get served at half-time, it isn't a good overall experience.
I think big concerts could generate a lot of revenue if the stands (East and to a lesser extent West) were improved. But the football revenue is significant and is why all the successful teams have built bigger stadiums. Those extra fans buy merch, they have kids who grow up to be the next generation, and it all hinges around not only good football, but a great day out with decent facilities.
Another point is that when at some point GC20 sell, who is going to want to be a buyer? A sugar Daddy type would want to swan about in front of 35,000 fans in a modern stadium. Its much more appealing to a buyer if the stadium has already been developed. | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 16:17 - May 27 with 2821 views | Horsham |
| Stadium development thoughts on 15:20 - May 27 by southnorfolkblue |
Stadium would be way down the list of my priorities tbh. If we get promoted to the PL, the TV money will dwarf our gate receipts, so I don’t see the commercial sense in spending tens of millions of pounds to secure what may be a modest increase in revenue….and that presupposes that gates hold up. We’ve spent the majority of the last 20 years rattling around in the stadium. I obviously don’t want this to happen but we could lose some of our new found fans as quickly as we got them.
Sorry if this sounds pessimistic but Stadium redevelopment has not been our strong point over the years! |
For absolute certain we will lose some of the existing support. Even die hards die in the end. You say we’ve had a chequered history with stadium development but again I’d challenge that on the basis that without the SBR and SAR extensions we’d be sitting at 21k capacity which would be woefully inadequate and would mean there would be ceiling on ambition. I don’t think the new stands crippled us in the way that relegation and the ITV digital collapse did alongside the contractual situation with the playing squad. Most importantly the current owners have cash and can afford it. Like any business the club moves forward or stagnates. The facilities have to become better and bigger I think, it doesn’t have to be now but that has to be the plan. |  | | |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:22 - May 27 with 2813 views | xrayspecs |
| Stadium development thoughts on 13:52 - May 27 by azuremerlangus |
Not much wrong with the Cobbold stand other than it is dated and therefore due its turn.
35-36k seems about right to me too, meaning it will roughly double in capacity as well as having better facilities. Anything bigger won’t make financial or physical sense compared with rest of the ground, and perhaps the corner with SBR might get properly developed (an away fans corner?).
I get there is lot of wariness to ground development given our history but without it we would now have a capacity of 16.5k - nearly half what we have now. Imagine the revenue we would be losing if that was the case next season? |
The corner between the Cobbold and SBR contains the roof support for the North Stand so converting this into seating would be highly impractical. | | | |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:24 - May 27 with 2802 views | Horsham |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:22 - May 27 by xrayspecs |
The corner between the Cobbold and SBR contains the roof support for the North Stand so converting this into seating would be highly impractical. |
Stick the away fans in that corner behind the North Stand roof support…proper old school away fan enclosure. Have an open urinal at the back too. It would be a nostalgia trip for our visitors. | | | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 16:27 - May 27 with 2797 views | bournemouthblue |
The impression I get is the old plans drawn up for a Cobbold rebuild around the same time as the North and South Stands have been shelved and a more ambitious project will be planned
I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground go over the road with the road remaining but being closed off most of the time as it is nowadays any way?
The aim is clearly to build a new main stand with the media facilities and perhaps even the directors box etc moved over to that side? It's possible, a new stand will offer the modern facilities you would want to be offering potentially?
It could have something like a club bar in it and improved hospitality facilities throughout which would certainly help the club's hospitality offering
Capacity wouldn't necessarily be the main focus of the stand but upping seats by 5 - 10k wouldn't be out of the question I would imagine?
What would it cost? Who really knows but I don't see Gamechanger as doing things on the cheap |  |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 17:34 - May 27 with 2754 views | grow_our_own |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:22 - May 27 by xrayspecs |
The corner between the Cobbold and SBR contains the roof support for the North Stand so converting this into seating would be highly impractical. |
Yeh I'm not a fan of corner development anyway. Accoustically, better to to have walls, and there's nobody further from some areas of the pitch than those at the rear of a corner section. One of the most important factors in stadium design is proximity. Crucial for fans to feel involved, part of the event. That's why overlapping tiers are preferable, although this conflicts with prime positioning of executive boxes. Steep rakes are good, shallow bad. But steep costs more because you have to build taller. [Post edited 27 May 2023 17:43]
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| Stadium development thoughts on 17:52 - May 27 with 2729 views | azuremerlangus |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:22 - May 27 by xrayspecs |
The corner between the Cobbold and SBR contains the roof support for the North Stand so converting this into seating would be highly impractical. |
My error - I meant the SAR corner but arguably that has the same issue. Corners are wasted opportunity and the SAR is (even as an end stand) very narrow. | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 17:53 - May 27 with 2729 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:27 - May 27 by bournemouthblue |
The impression I get is the old plans drawn up for a Cobbold rebuild around the same time as the North and South Stands have been shelved and a more ambitious project will be planned
I wouldn't be surprised to see the ground go over the road with the road remaining but being closed off most of the time as it is nowadays any way?
The aim is clearly to build a new main stand with the media facilities and perhaps even the directors box etc moved over to that side? It's possible, a new stand will offer the modern facilities you would want to be offering potentially?
It could have something like a club bar in it and improved hospitality facilities throughout which would certainly help the club's hospitality offering
Capacity wouldn't necessarily be the main focus of the stand but upping seats by 5 - 10k wouldn't be out of the question I would imagine?
What would it cost? Who really knows but I don't see Gamechanger as doing things on the cheap |
If we do it, then it’s a must to put in a brand new directors box and corporate suites etc on that side. The directors box is really quite uncomfortable and old now, and the bar in hospitality there is also small and dated. |  |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 18:03 - May 27 with 2714 views | bournemouthblue |
| Stadium development thoughts on 17:53 - May 27 by Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
If we do it, then it’s a must to put in a brand new directors box and corporate suites etc on that side. The directors box is really quite uncomfortable and old now, and the bar in hospitality there is also small and dated. |
Agreed, it would make a lot of sense to do that, it sounds like it will be a fairly impressive stand, whenever it is built
I wonder what the timeframe for it is potentially, it's clearly being planned for | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 18:09 - May 27 with 2705 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Stadium development thoughts on 18:03 - May 27 by bournemouthblue |
Agreed, it would make a lot of sense to do that, it sounds like it will be a fairly impressive stand, whenever it is built
I wonder what the timeframe for it is potentially, it's clearly being planned for |
That was my question. It would be a fair bit longer than just a Summer project I assume? Which would mean losing capacity for a season/while? [Post edited 27 May 2023 18:12]
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| Stadium development thoughts on 19:07 - May 27 with 2626 views | southnorfolkblue |
| Stadium development thoughts on 16:17 - May 27 by Horsham |
For absolute certain we will lose some of the existing support. Even die hards die in the end. You say we’ve had a chequered history with stadium development but again I’d challenge that on the basis that without the SBR and SAR extensions we’d be sitting at 21k capacity which would be woefully inadequate and would mean there would be ceiling on ambition. I don’t think the new stands crippled us in the way that relegation and the ITV digital collapse did alongside the contractual situation with the playing squad. Most importantly the current owners have cash and can afford it. Like any business the club moves forward or stagnates. The facilities have to become better and bigger I think, it doesn’t have to be now but that has to be the plan. |
The new stands left us with a 32 million pound debt that we were unable to service. They were a significant factor in our admiration. Not the only factor granted, but it was significant. It’s only in the last few months that we’ve needed the additional seats on a regular basis. The upturn in support is too fledgling to justify a bigger ground imho.
The building of the Pioneer stand was in part responsible for the break up of Robsons final great side, as it had to be paid for. There were other factors, but I think it’s fair to call our redevelopment has been sketchy. | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 19:11 - May 27 with 2619 views | Joey_Joe_Joe_Junior |
| Stadium development thoughts on 19:07 - May 27 by southnorfolkblue |
The new stands left us with a 32 million pound debt that we were unable to service. They were a significant factor in our admiration. Not the only factor granted, but it was significant. It’s only in the last few months that we’ve needed the additional seats on a regular basis. The upturn in support is too fledgling to justify a bigger ground imho.
The building of the Pioneer stand was in part responsible for the break up of Robsons final great side, as it had to be paid for. There were other factors, but I think it’s fair to call our redevelopment has been sketchy. |
Different times, the Cobbold stand can’t last another 10-15 years. | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 20:08 - May 27 with 2559 views | xrayspecs |
| Stadium development thoughts on 19:07 - May 27 by southnorfolkblue |
The new stands left us with a 32 million pound debt that we were unable to service. They were a significant factor in our admiration. Not the only factor granted, but it was significant. It’s only in the last few months that we’ve needed the additional seats on a regular basis. The upturn in support is too fledgling to justify a bigger ground imho.
The building of the Pioneer stand was in part responsible for the break up of Robsons final great side, as it had to be paid for. There were other factors, but I think it’s fair to call our redevelopment has been sketchy. |
Admiration? | | | |
| Stadium development thoughts on 20:47 - May 27 with 2503 views | Ryorry |
| Stadium development thoughts on 20:08 - May 27 by xrayspecs |
Admiration? |
Predictive text for 'Administration', I reckon. | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 21:07 - May 27 with 2473 views | southnorfolkblue |
| Stadium development thoughts on 20:47 - May 27 by Ryorry |
Predictive text for 'Administration', I reckon. |
Yes you’re right. Combination of my fat fingers and predictive texting 😂😂 | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 21:39 - May 27 with 2413 views | Clapham_Junction |
| Stadium development thoughts on 19:07 - May 27 by southnorfolkblue |
The new stands left us with a 32 million pound debt that we were unable to service. They were a significant factor in our admiration. Not the only factor granted, but it was significant. It’s only in the last few months that we’ve needed the additional seats on a regular basis. The upturn in support is too fledgling to justify a bigger ground imho.
The building of the Pioneer stand was in part responsible for the break up of Robsons final great side, as it had to be paid for. There were other factors, but I think it’s fair to call our redevelopment has been sketchy. |
I think Phil previously debunked this.
Ashton/New stand by PhilTWTD 3 May 2023 11:27Indeed, the stands weren't the issue which led to administration, player contracts, the transfer market collapse and ITV Digital were.
In fact, the stands were outside of the CVA. Indeed, the bond remained hanging over the club until Marcus Evans's takeover when it was written off by Norwich Union.
The narrative that the stands caused the problems, as per the 1980s, does seem to one which has developed recently.
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| Stadium development thoughts on 14:59 - May 28 with 2165 views | ElephantintheRoom |
There are two flies in your ointment. Ashton & O’Leary’s PowerPoint presentation when they changed the Bristol City logo to Ipswich Town was about making money - not spending it. The franchise is already a year behind schedule
The other rather salient point is that the chancers don’t own the ground - and I doubt US parasites are into developing land that isn’t their’s. | |
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| Stadium development thoughts on 15:10 - May 28 with 2152 views | Churchman |
| Stadium development thoughts on 14:59 - May 28 by ElephantintheRoom |
There are two flies in your ointment. Ashton & O’Leary’s PowerPoint presentation when they changed the Bristol City logo to Ipswich Town was about making money - not spending it. The franchise is already a year behind schedule
The other rather salient point is that the chancers don’t own the ground - and I doubt US parasites are into developing land that isn’t their’s. |
There are ‘two flies in your ointment’. YOUR.
On the ball City eh? You are no more an Ipswich supporter than I’m a brain surgeon.
‘Chancers’ and ‘US parasites’. I don’t need to wonder if you’d use language like that to their faces. I know you wouldn’t. How you’ve not been banned from this forum with your endless bile is beyond me. [Post edited 28 May 2023 15:10]
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| Stadium development thoughts on 15:35 - May 28 with 2126 views | SheffordBlue |
| Stadium development thoughts on 15:10 - May 28 by Churchman |
There are ‘two flies in your ointment’. YOUR.
On the ball City eh? You are no more an Ipswich supporter than I’m a brain surgeon.
‘Chancers’ and ‘US parasites’. I don’t need to wonder if you’d use language like that to their faces. I know you wouldn’t. How you’ve not been banned from this forum with your endless bile is beyond me. [Post edited 28 May 2023 15:10]
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He also misses the point that PSRPS could make a tidy bit of long term investment money from loaning the money to the club for the redevelopment at a reasonable rate of return. I don't think that kind of level of investment will ever just be injected by the current owners but would be a different type of investment for the pension fund by itself. | |
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