| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 18:26 - Aug 9 with 1756 views | DJR |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 17:18 - Aug 9 by Nthsuffolkblue |
I think the only people who I have seen claim this are those who want to justify continuing with the Tories.
Those who are disappointed with Starmer are unhappy with how little difference there is. Starmer has taken the Labour Party down the Blair route. Blair was far better than anything we currently have but a long way short of what we would be best served by.
I am considering LibDem or Green myself. However, the likelihood is that the only possibility of removing the Tory incumbent in these parts is Labour. But even then it is unlikely. |
On Labour, this is a good article which reflects my view that its current cautious approach, whilst it may be successful electorally, will severely hamstring the party if in government.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/aug/09/labour-win-power-party-str
It's worth saying that Neal Lawson is more of a centrist than anything, and this sentence from the article is as an indication that his concerns are not just those of the Corbynite left,
"So why does it feel that outside a narrowing leadership circle, so few party members and supporters seem happy with this state of affairs?" |  | |  |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 18:48 - Aug 9 with 1719 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 17:55 - Aug 9 by DJR |
I am not sure that the US model is one we would want to follow given for most Americans real wages are no higher than forty years ago.
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2018/08/07/for-most-us-workers-real-wage
It mustn't be forgotten, say, that things like the success of the States when it comes to tech may boost growth but little of that wealth trickles down to the man in the street. And this plays a part in the disillusionment of many American voters, and thus support for Trump.
Interestingly, given our attempts to follow the American model, we appear ourselves to be entering an era where our children will be worse off than our parents. [Post edited 9 Aug 2023 18:27]
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Believe I clearly stated “whilst I wouldn’t promote the US economic model”.
Just pointing out that we’ve failed to match US growth with a supposedly low tax model. Wages in the States is considerably higher than here and in most European countries (bar some outliers). Even the minimum wage is higher than the UK in many states (albeit the strong dollar can skew it). Wages have grown in real terms faster than any western economy.
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/5364/uk-greece-come-bottom-for-wage-growth/
Whilst the likes of Germany and France have traded growth for higher taxation, and a less fluid labour market, they generally good public services to show for it. The point being that the UK has failed by every metric economically and socially. |  | | |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 18:51 - Aug 9 with 1709 views | OldFart71 |
To be honest in all my years of being able to vote I may abstain at the next GE as I don't have faith in any of the Parties. The one currently in power has lied, cost the taxpayer billions in useless PPE, Track and Trace and a furlough scheme that although legally was abused by many Company's. Take for instance Bookmakers who furloughed their shop staff and then made many more millions from gambling online. Doctors were paid fiftenn quid a time to adminster Covid jabs and twenty quid a go for weekends. Now we are all paying through the nose because Sunak froze personal allowance until 2028 dragging more and more into paying tax. Alcohol if you want to drink anything other than something akin to water will cost you more. But let's view the opposition. Kier Starmer and the spice girls. No policies and the thought of more of the same from them as from the Tories. A hung Parliament ? Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him. | | | |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 20:26 - Aug 9 with 1682 views | Ryorry |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 18:51 - Aug 9 by OldFart71 |
To be honest in all my years of being able to vote I may abstain at the next GE as I don't have faith in any of the Parties. The one currently in power has lied, cost the taxpayer billions in useless PPE, Track and Trace and a furlough scheme that although legally was abused by many Company's. Take for instance Bookmakers who furloughed their shop staff and then made many more millions from gambling online. Doctors were paid fiftenn quid a time to adminster Covid jabs and twenty quid a go for weekends. Now we are all paying through the nose because Sunak froze personal allowance until 2028 dragging more and more into paying tax. Alcohol if you want to drink anything other than something akin to water will cost you more. But let's view the opposition. Kier Starmer and the spice girls. No policies and the thought of more of the same from them as from the Tories. A hung Parliament ? Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him. |
Let's hope you change your mind, & others who may be thinking similarly do too, otherwise we might end up with another 5 years of these vile, corrupt, stinking tory chancers who are currently trying to drag the UK back two centuries.
No matter what you think of the alternatives, they aren't by several country miles anything remotely as bad as these #ToryCriminalsUnfitToGovern.
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| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 20:46 - Aug 9 with 1652 views | DJR |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 18:48 - Aug 9 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Believe I clearly stated “whilst I wouldn’t promote the US economic model”.
Just pointing out that we’ve failed to match US growth with a supposedly low tax model. Wages in the States is considerably higher than here and in most European countries (bar some outliers). Even the minimum wage is higher than the UK in many states (albeit the strong dollar can skew it). Wages have grown in real terms faster than any western economy.
https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/5364/uk-greece-come-bottom-for-wage-growth/
Whilst the likes of Germany and France have traded growth for higher taxation, and a less fluid labour market, they generally good public services to show for it. The point being that the UK has failed by every metric economically and socially. |
There are lies, damned lies and statistics but the following graph which (given I mentioned most employees) focus on employees below managerial level, and going back further than yours does, tells a different story, given that real term wages in 2019 were barely higher than in 19733.
https://www.statista.com/chart/17679/real-wages-in-the-united-states/
But I certainly agree that the UK has failed by every metric, and we are probably arguing on the head of a pin. [Post edited 9 Aug 2023 20:47]
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| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 20:50 - Aug 9 with 1641 views | DJR |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 20:26 - Aug 9 by Ryorry |
Let's hope you change your mind, & others who may be thinking similarly do too, otherwise we might end up with another 5 years of these vile, corrupt, stinking tory chancers who are currently trying to drag the UK back two centuries.
No matter what you think of the alternatives, they aren't by several country miles anything remotely as bad as these #ToryCriminalsUnfitToGovern.
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I would second that. | | | |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 21:23 - Aug 9 with 1628 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 20:46 - Aug 9 by DJR |
There are lies, damned lies and statistics but the following graph which (given I mentioned most employees) focus on employees below managerial level, and going back further than yours does, tells a different story, given that real term wages in 2019 were barely higher than in 19733.
https://www.statista.com/chart/17679/real-wages-in-the-united-states/
But I certainly agree that the UK has failed by every metric, and we are probably arguing on the head of a pin. [Post edited 9 Aug 2023 20:47]
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Which nonetheless paints an even bleaker picture for the UK and Europe. | | | |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 00:16 - Aug 10 with 1565 views | reusersfreekicks |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 12:18 - Aug 9 by Darth_Koont |
Actually, I think Starmer and his gang could be even worse.
They are essentially neoliberal zealots who have no solutions to anything in the real world. And they’ve rejected progressive politics at almost every step which puts them way right of centre. Couple that with their anti-democratic and authoritarian approach to representative politics and that’s no objectively good option on its own terms.
We need to be getting out of this right-leaning and ultimately self-serving rut that has seen the UK’s baseline performance stutter and fail. Not to mention making life worse for the majority and especially younger generations and marginalised groups. Having a changing of the guards rather than real change is something the UK and its citizens can’t afford. And the crushing of any alternative will just set us further back. |
Bonkers |  | | |
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| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:34 - Aug 10 with 1497 views | DJR |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 21:23 - Aug 9 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
Which nonetheless paints an even bleaker picture for the UK and Europe. |
Interesting to see from the following that the countries whose models I wished we followed (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Iceland, Germany) have done pretty well when it comes to income per capita, GDP per capita and GDP per capita growth. And Germany would presumably have done even better had it not absorbed East Germany.
https://www.worldeconomics.com/Wealth/
https://ourworldindata.org/economic-growth-since-1950
And with greater income equality and better public services, what's not to like?
[Post edited 10 Aug 2023 8:39]
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| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:48 - Aug 10 with 1476 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:34 - Aug 10 by DJR |
Interesting to see from the following that the countries whose models I wished we followed (Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Iceland, Germany) have done pretty well when it comes to income per capita, GDP per capita and GDP per capita growth. And Germany would presumably have done even better had it not absorbed East Germany.
https://www.worldeconomics.com/Wealth/
https://ourworldindata.org/economic-growth-since-1950
And with greater income equality and better public services, what's not to like?
[Post edited 10 Aug 2023 8:39]
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GDP per capita is not a good measurement of living standards though since it’s largely skewed in favour of smaller states. When you have a petro-state like Norway with 5m people it’s not really comparable with most other economies. Switzerland and Netherlands are low tax models. The US is still ahead of many of those countries in terms of economic growth without substantial government spending. So whilst it’s probably true that austerity has had an impact on the UK it can’t be the full story. And our performance metrics are terrible even pre Brexit. The FTSE100 has performed terribly, and firms continue to delist. The NASDAQ (which is admittedly tech-heavy) by comparison although not at a record high has experienced phenomenal growth. I think we need to look at why entrepreneurship is so stifled int he UK.
Germany will continue to struggle since they are so dependent on manufacturing, and will face competition from low wage economies. What they’ve been really successful at is their federal model and distribution of industry across the country. The UK is horribly centralised | | | |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 09:07 - Aug 10 with 1450 views | thebooks |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:12 - Aug 9 by DJR |
That's my feeling too. |
Nah, going to be a Lab landslide. The Tories’ recent elction wins have been based on short-term events and gambles: collapse of the financial markets, Brexit — they’re paying for this now.
Their only hope was Boris Johnson, who at least does know how to fight a campaign and verbalise some form of “vision”, and obviously that wasn’t going to work longterm.
The article does say “Politics needs a spectrum of parties. It seems impossible that right-wing ideas and values can be simply vanquished from the scene. Conservatism has to survive in some form…” and I could make a cheap shot about it being alive and well after the next election… |  | | |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 09:22 - Aug 10 with 1425 views | DJR |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:48 - Aug 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
GDP per capita is not a good measurement of living standards though since it’s largely skewed in favour of smaller states. When you have a petro-state like Norway with 5m people it’s not really comparable with most other economies. Switzerland and Netherlands are low tax models. The US is still ahead of many of those countries in terms of economic growth without substantial government spending. So whilst it’s probably true that austerity has had an impact on the UK it can’t be the full story. And our performance metrics are terrible even pre Brexit. The FTSE100 has performed terribly, and firms continue to delist. The NASDAQ (which is admittedly tech-heavy) by comparison although not at a record high has experienced phenomenal growth. I think we need to look at why entrepreneurship is so stifled int he UK.
Germany will continue to struggle since they are so dependent on manufacturing, and will face competition from low wage economies. What they’ve been really successful at is their federal model and distribution of industry across the country. The UK is horribly centralised |
I realise GDP per capita is not ideal, which is why I included income along with GDP per capita growth.
I was wrong about Switzerland but this indicates the Netherlands are not a low tax model.
https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-kingdom.pdf
As regards the UK, we appear to lack any long term economic plan, our productivity is worse than other countries, and companies don't appear to look to the long term, preferring instead to give money to shareholders.
And as regards austerity, my main concern was its impact on public services, although it has also contributed to sluggish growth.
And I wouldn't write of Germany too soon, given the following, and the general move away from the far east, especially when it comes to China.
https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/germany-gets-big-two-chip-behemoths-tsmc-inte
[Post edited 10 Aug 2023 9:54]
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| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 09:29 - Aug 10 with 1397 views | Darth_Koont |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 00:16 - Aug 10 by reusersfreekicks |
Bonkers |
Agreed 🙂 |  |
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| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 09:37 - Aug 10 with 1389 views | mylittletown |
| The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:48 - Aug 10 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
GDP per capita is not a good measurement of living standards though since it’s largely skewed in favour of smaller states. When you have a petro-state like Norway with 5m people it’s not really comparable with most other economies. Switzerland and Netherlands are low tax models. The US is still ahead of many of those countries in terms of economic growth without substantial government spending. So whilst it’s probably true that austerity has had an impact on the UK it can’t be the full story. And our performance metrics are terrible even pre Brexit. The FTSE100 has performed terribly, and firms continue to delist. The NASDAQ (which is admittedly tech-heavy) by comparison although not at a record high has experienced phenomenal growth. I think we need to look at why entrepreneurship is so stifled int he UK.
Germany will continue to struggle since they are so dependent on manufacturing, and will face competition from low wage economies. What they’ve been really successful at is their federal model and distribution of industry across the country. The UK is horribly centralised |
The US has a successful economy, partly at the expense of a terrible society.
Anyone who spends much time in the rural south or the rust belt would be shocked at how hopeless and destitute those areas are.
Personally I think that entrepreneurship in the UK is stifled by our over cautious, government defined, accountant led PE model. I have worked for US startups, several times, and for two Scandinavian start ups who were all able to obtain more venture capital with far fewer controls and a much more risk tolerant profile.
The latest changes to VCT rules, for instance, make it almost impossible for VCT funds to invest in early stage tech companies. (VCTs have never been able to invest in pure startups.) Whenever people start to make decent money by taking risks or salary sacrifice, the government, both parties, change the rules, through HMRC, to take more of the rewards away in tax. The classic example being changing to taxing option schemes as income, rather as capital gains.
(Tbf to this government they did just increase the amount individuals can invest through SEIS schemes into startups, but such shemes are a spec compared to the whole market.) [Post edited 10 Aug 2023 9:40]
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