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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:05 - Aug 9 by DJR
The study mentioned in the article below, and published in the Journal of Epidemiology and Community Health, suggests over 330,000 excess deaths between 2012 and 2019 linked to austerity. It is to be noted that this predates the pandemic.
Yeah, I went the low end of the estimates. But can quite believe that it’s really upwards of 250K.
Misguided policy and certainly was a collective failing of our political class and journalists who largely wrung their hands but just nodded along as if this was the only way forward. What’s really criminal is how little we’ve learnt and moved on in our thinking — even with the evidence of how big a failure austerity has been.
Pronouns: He/Him
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:21 - Aug 9 with 1219 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 12:45 - Aug 9 by Darth_Koont
Eh?
Try addressing what I actually wrote.
It’s not complicated, someone comments or criticises the Tory’s and you steam in with a Yeah -but-Starmer diatribe which, somewhat ironically is what you used to accuse others of doing about your Corbyn.
You don’t ever bring anything new so little point trying engage with you as you are so entrenched in your blinkered view.
In a nutshell with you
Pre-Starmer Tories = Bad, Corbyn = Good, With Starmer Starmer = Bad Corbyn = Victim of Tory Press and Labour Tories = doesn’t matter anymore
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:23 - Aug 9 with 1194 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:21 - Aug 9 by PassionNotAnger
It’s not complicated, someone comments or criticises the Tory’s and you steam in with a Yeah -but-Starmer diatribe which, somewhat ironically is what you used to accuse others of doing about your Corbyn.
You don’t ever bring anything new so little point trying engage with you as you are so entrenched in your blinkered view.
In a nutshell with you
Pre-Starmer Tories = Bad, Corbyn = Good, With Starmer Starmer = Bad Corbyn = Victim of Tory Press and Labour Tories = doesn’t matter anymore
The irony is that you’re the one steaming in with a diatribe and nothing else.
Try and engage with what’s being said.
Pronouns: He/Him
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:27 - Aug 9 with 1173 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:17 - Aug 9 by Darth_Koont
Yeah, I went the low end of the estimates. But can quite believe that it’s really upwards of 250K.
Misguided policy and certainly was a collective failing of our political class and journalists who largely wrung their hands but just nodded along as if this was the only way forward. What’s really criminal is how little we’ve learnt and moved on in our thinking — even with the evidence of how big a failure austerity has been.
The BBC in particular pursued a narrative that there was no alternative to austerity. Maybe it was the "national government" nature of the coalition and the BBC believing it was acting in the nation's interest in a time of crisis. Or more likely, that the BBC always goes along with the prevailing establishment line.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 14:29]
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:38 - Aug 9 with 1139 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:27 - Aug 9 by DJR
The BBC in particular pursued a narrative that there was no alternative to austerity. Maybe it was the "national government" nature of the coalition and the BBC believing it was acting in the nation's interest in a time of crisis. Or more likely, that the BBC always goes along with the prevailing establishment line.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 14:29]
Ultimately, they’re the same people with the same interests. Institutionally anyway as there is undoubtedly a much wider cross-section of views at the BBC than the establishment line they default to.
On a related note, people are right to talk about our rotten and outdated “democracy” that needs the reform of PR and the more pluralistic politics that comes with it. BUT I think our captive media where serious journalism needs to be is arguably the biggest problem and has been making the political weather in its own self-interested image.
Pronouns: He/Him
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:43 - Aug 9 with 1107 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:38 - Aug 9 by Darth_Koont
Ultimately, they’re the same people with the same interests. Institutionally anyway as there is undoubtedly a much wider cross-section of views at the BBC than the establishment line they default to.
On a related note, people are right to talk about our rotten and outdated “democracy” that needs the reform of PR and the more pluralistic politics that comes with it. BUT I think our captive media where serious journalism needs to be is arguably the biggest problem and has been making the political weather in its own self-interested image.
If we get a proper democracy with a wider range of MPs and a broader set of party opinions which can be heard and have influence,, we will get a wider range of political reporting
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:46 - Aug 9 with 1087 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 13:19 - Aug 9 by ElderGrizzly
The problem the Tories have (like Trump) is they are now just talking to those who would already vote for them no matter what anyway.
They are alienating the ones they would need to have any hope of not being wiped out.
It's racist/xenophobic comfort messaging for the already deranged. Nothing more.
I think it is also that 'wiser heads' have decided to let these incompetents self destruct while they themselves work on rebuilding the party. It is very rare, or in fact non-existent, to read any comment from these people.
It is a measure of how far the Tory Party has sunk when it's own deputy chairman thinks using the words 'fck off' is acceptable.
Sadly, that does mean more and more damage is being done to the country while these dangerous rightie ideas are not only being spoken of, but are being implemented.
I have no doubt they will receive a few of the rightwing nutjobs from whatever the latest money making scam Farage is peddling - or party as he tries to spin it as. But for every one of these cranks there are hundreds who will vote against such lunacy. As seen at all recent by elections and local elections.
The real face of the Tory Party
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:47 - Aug 9 with 1088 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:43 - Aug 9 by mylittletown
If we get a proper democracy with a wider range of MPs and a broader set of party opinions which can be heard and have influence,, we will get a wider range of political reporting
I agree but it’s a bit chicken and egg when the media can’t or won’t make the case for PR or even more democratic and representative politics in the current model.
In fact, I’d say most of the corporate media much prefers the game as it is. They don’t want the public getting in the way of that.
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 10:10 - Aug 9 by GlasgowBlue
"The German healthcare system uses a mixed model combining public and private elements. It is based on mandatory health insurance, with coverage provided by either statutory health insurance (Gesetzliche Krankenversicherung) or private health insurance (Private Krankenversicherung).
It's a modern health service that isn't treated as the national religion. If anyone suggested such a system in the UK they would be branded a heretic.
Is it the case that roughly, in terms of per capita spending on healthcare, UK spends just under 2K less than Germany?
Could that be a factor?
Does the German tax system have something like a mandatory tax like National Insurance, that could be hypothecated?
Be interesting the politics of that wouldn't it. To get to the same level as Germany.
Either all people pay about 2K more for their healthcare, in some form, which would be a hit on the poor, or rich people subsidise poor people.
That happens with education now, people spend money sending children to private schools, as an example, well some of that money goes into the state system, through taxing private scho…..oh…no…that doesn’t happen.
I think to be an effective policy, e.g. just taking a mandatory tax off people, vs telling people to pay a mandatory health insurance as well as taxing people, it would have to demonstrate how doing that, gets more money into healthcare, to provide an equivalent health outcome between German citizens and UK citizens.
I think people have asked this type of question, on this topic before. That isn’t really calling someone a heretic, it is asking someone to show workings of getting from point A to point B whilst improving C.
I am not stating, by the way, that it is not a bad idea. But insurance is interesting. Bad drivers pay more insurance.
Non-smoking vegans with no children, that don’t drink much, shouldn’t subsidise overweight meat eating smokers with children, that get drunk and end up in A&E after a punch-up.
I like it, really I do. But….generally, you still have to get more money out of people somehow.
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 15:27 - Aug 9 with 1049 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 08:15 - Aug 9 by GlasgowBlue
But Starmer is rubbish and isn’t inspiring voters to elect a Labour government. Or something like that.
It seems that Starmer and his policies are more palatable to you than the Tory Party.
If I recall correctly, you stood as a candidate for the post-Thatcher Tories, and supported Brexit.
The ease with which someone with your Party membership history can accept Starmer is a symptom of why many who have historically promoted Centre Left and Left Wing values are so disenchanted with him.
We don't need the Labour Party to be evisecerated of all progressive policies in order to eviscerate the Tories of all seats.
We would settle for a 40 majority and some positive progressive policies, starting with redistributing the wealth which has flowed to the already wealthy, at the expense of everybody else, over the last 18 years.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 15:49]
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 15:33 - Aug 9 with 1043 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:47 - Aug 9 by Darth_Koont
I agree but it’s a bit chicken and egg when the media can’t or won’t make the case for PR or even more democratic and representative politics in the current model.
In fact, I’d say most of the corporate media much prefers the game as it is. They don’t want the public getting in the way of that.
Agreed, the public are the only people who can change the electoral system, and their only chance is to ensure that the LibDems and the SNP have enough seats in Parliament to force PR through as the price for forming a coalition.
Nick Clegg didn't have the bottle last time. In fact, much like Cameron, he lacked any qualities of courage or guts.
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 15:35 - Aug 9 with 1023 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 12:15 - Aug 9 by mylittletown
Hard to disagree, austerity has been a total disaster, is economically illiterate, and arguably led to Brexit.
I don't think that they were lying psychopaths like Johnson, though. And it was the latter who cleared the last half-decent Tories out of the the party and out of Parliament.
'I don't think that they were lying psychopaths like Johnson, though.'
Nah. They were smug, snide psychopaths who were better at keeping the mask on.
I'm one of the people who was blamed for getting Paul Cook sacked. PM for the full post.
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 15:27 - Aug 9 by ArnoldMoorhen
It seems that Starmer and his policies are more palatable to you than the Tory Party.
If I recall correctly, you stood as a candidate for the post-Thatcher Tories, and supported Brexit.
The ease with which someone with your Party membership history can accept Starmer is a symptom of why many who have historically promoted Centre Left and Left Wing values are so disenchanted with him.
We don't need the Labour Party to be evisecerated of all progressive policies in order to eviscerate the Tories of all seats.
We would settle for a 40 majority and some positive progressive policies, starting with redistributing the wealth which has flowed to the already wealthy, at the expense of everybody else, over the last 18 years.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 15:49]
Elected twice during the Thatcher era. Not post.
So if a Brexit voting Thatcherite finds a Starmer lead Labour government more palatable than the Tories, what does that tell you about the current incarnation of the Tory party?
If the Tories were lead by a one nation leader after a period of opposition and reflection, they would get my vote.
I’m not voting Starmer because of his policies. Many of which I would no doubt disagree with.
I feel the same way about the Tories as many decent Labour members did about Corbyn.
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:04 - Aug 9 by GlasgowBlue
Elected twice during the Thatcher era. Not post.
So if a Brexit voting Thatcherite finds a Starmer lead Labour government more palatable than the Tories, what does that tell you about the current incarnation of the Tory party?
If the Tories were lead by a one nation leader after a period of opposition and reflection, they would get my vote.
I’m not voting Starmer because of his policies. Many of which I would no doubt disagree with.
I feel the same way about the Tories as many decent Labour members did about Corbyn.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 16:06]
If you're not voting for him because of his policies, why are you voting for him?
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:08 - Aug 9 with 949 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:07 - Aug 9 by Blueschev
If you're not voting for him because of his policies, why are you voting for him?
To help get rid of this morally bankrupt and corrupt Tory government with the added bonus that must vote may also help get rid of this morally bankrupt and corrupt SNP government.
Edit. Plus the idea of my voting Starmer upsets all the right people and turns the crank left turn into raging gammons.
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 14:47 - Aug 9 by Darth_Koont
I agree but it’s a bit chicken and egg when the media can’t or won’t make the case for PR or even more democratic and representative politics in the current model.
In fact, I’d say most of the corporate media much prefers the game as it is. They don’t want the public getting in the way of that.
Simply because PR amounts to less accountability and so less democracy.
It is a grubby little system where your MP is not chosen by the local party, and the government isd s decided in backrooms after much horse trading
ever wondered why those involved and understand this do not call for it - or those who do are unable to answer basic questions but retain a belief a s with brexit
however I am willing to listen to an explanation as to how ANY law or pilicy is affected, so gfar there never is
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:13 - Aug 9 with 938 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:08 - Aug 9 by GlasgowBlue
To help get rid of this morally bankrupt and corrupt Tory government with the added bonus that must vote may also help get rid of this morally bankrupt and corrupt SNP government.
Edit. Plus the idea of my voting Starmer upsets all the right people and turns the crank left turn into raging gammons.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 16:12]
Doesn't that rather contradict your previous point? "But Starmer is rubbish and isn’t inspiring voters to elect a Labour government. Or something like that."
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:17 - Aug 9 with 926 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:13 - Aug 9 by Blueschev
Doesn't that rather contradict your previous point? "But Starmer is rubbish and isn’t inspiring voters to elect a Labour government. Or something like that."
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 09:11 - Aug 9 by BloomBlue
I genuinely believe the LibDems are going to surprise a lot in the next GE, with having their best ever GE result. When it comes to the day of voting I think a lot of people are getting fed up with the 2 main parties and for a change will go LibDem. I appreciate that runs the danger of a hung parliament, but maybe given everything not a bad thing.
I wouldn't discount the greens picking up a much higher proportion of the vote too. That could translate to several seats that could even make them critical in forming a parliament similar to the DUP once were (but in a far less bribery way).
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:11 - Aug 9 by HARRY10
Simply because PR amounts to less accountability and so less democracy.
It is a grubby little system where your MP is not chosen by the local party, and the government isd s decided in backrooms after much horse trading
ever wondered why those involved and understand this do not call for it - or those who do are unable to answer basic questions but retain a belief a s with brexit
however I am willing to listen to an explanation as to how ANY law or pilicy is affected, so gfar there never is
As opposed to the current system where every government since 1931 has not represented the majority of the votes cast and so has no legitimate popular mandate, yet is able to pass almost any law it proposes? That is more democratic, is it?
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:31 - Aug 9 with 883 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:04 - Aug 9 by GlasgowBlue
Elected twice during the Thatcher era. Not post.
So if a Brexit voting Thatcherite finds a Starmer lead Labour government more palatable than the Tories, what does that tell you about the current incarnation of the Tory party?
If the Tories were lead by a one nation leader after a period of opposition and reflection, they would get my vote.
I’m not voting Starmer because of his policies. Many of which I would no doubt disagree with.
I feel the same way about the Tories as many decent Labour members did about Corbyn.
[Post edited 9 Aug 2023 16:06]
"So if a Brexit voting Thatcherite finds a Starmer lead Labour government more palatable than the Tories, what does that tell you about the current incarnation of the Tory party?"
Nothing I don't already know about them, and was actively warning about in advance.
Remind us which of the Brexit benefits swung it for you to vote Leave in the Rederendum (unlike the vast majority of One Nation Tories, who backed Remain)?
And tell us whether you think the benefit is being fully realised yet.
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:55 - Aug 9 with 828 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 13:15 - Aug 9 by DJR
I think the point he is making has nothing to do with Corbyn. It is that the economic model we have signed up to since 1979 (low taxes, privatisation etc) has failed, when other countries in Europe which have stuck to the sort of social democracy we had before then have been much more successful when it comes to public services, equality etc.
Austerity must by only part of the story when it comes out economic malaise. The US model of low tax, low spend has seen growth far exceed the UK (and indeed the rest of Western Europe) for decades. We still have a much higher government spend as a % of GDP.
Whilst I wouldn’t promote the US economic model, decades of incompetence has seen us end up with the worst of both worlds, poor public services akin the the US (albeit not to that extent YET), and the sluggish growth and declining living standards of the middle class in Western Europe.
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The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 17:18 - Aug 9 with 799 views
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 11:43 - Aug 9 by itfcjoe
But people on the left will try and claim Starmer is just as bad, it's an incredible viewpoint
I think the only people who I have seen claim this are those who want to justify continuing with the Tories.
Those who are disappointed with Starmer are unhappy with how little difference there is. Starmer has taken the Labour Party down the Blair route. Blair was far better than anything we currently have but a long way short of what we would be best served by.
I am considering LibDem or Green myself. However, the likelihood is that the only possibility of removing the Tory incumbent in these parts is Labour. But even then it is unlikely.
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:11 - Aug 9 by HARRY10
Simply because PR amounts to less accountability and so less democracy.
It is a grubby little system where your MP is not chosen by the local party, and the government isd s decided in backrooms after much horse trading
ever wondered why those involved and understand this do not call for it - or those who do are unable to answer basic questions but retain a belief a s with brexit
however I am willing to listen to an explanation as to how ANY law or pilicy is affected, so gfar there never is
The Tories are heading for electoral evisceration - The Spectator on 16:55 - Aug 9 by SuperKieranMcKenna
Austerity must by only part of the story when it comes out economic malaise. The US model of low tax, low spend has seen growth far exceed the UK (and indeed the rest of Western Europe) for decades. We still have a much higher government spend as a % of GDP.
Whilst I wouldn’t promote the US economic model, decades of incompetence has seen us end up with the worst of both worlds, poor public services akin the the US (albeit not to that extent YET), and the sluggish growth and declining living standards of the middle class in Western Europe.
I am not sure that the US model is one we would want to follow given for most Americans real wages are no higher than forty years ago.
It mustn't be forgotten, say, that things like the success of the States when it comes to tech may boost growth but little of that wealth trickles down to the man in the street. And this plays a part in the disillusionment of many American voters, and thus support for Trump.
Interestingly, given our attempts to follow the American model, we appear ourselves to be entering an era where our children will be worse off than our parents.
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