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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257190 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:04 - Nov 16 with 3882 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Nov 16 by DJR

Certainly, a humanitarian paws (to use the words on the front page of Private Eye) ain't going to cut the mustard.

And the following suggests no pressure being brought to bear on Israel by Biden.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/16/joe-biden-israel-hamas-war-ceasefi
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 9:23]


It’s an overly supportive statement by Biden, certainly based on the collective punishment we’re still seeing on the ground and the condemnation from much of the rest of the world especially the Global South.

Unfortunately, I think the impending elections for the US and the UK in 2024 are having an effect here. Can’t believe many politicians and their parties want to call for a ceasefire and then have to deal with the anti-Israel and pro-Hamas charges and possibly worse that will come their way.

Or he, Sunak, Starmer et al really believe the right way forward is by following the Israeli government’s lead. Which I’d find even more worrying for any long-term peaceful solution.

Pronouns: He/Him

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before its allies say,"you've killed enough people, civilians, you need to on 10:34 - Nov 16 with 3826 viewsWeWereZombies

The thread title comes from this, part opinion piece and part reportage, article by Jeremy Bowen:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67426546

Depressingly Bowen see the Israeli Defence Force carrying on as they are for at least another couple of weeks.

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before its allies say,"you've killed enough people, civilians, you need to on 10:44 - Nov 16 with 3802 viewsDarth_Koont

before its allies say,"you've killed enough people, civilians, you need to on 10:34 - Nov 16 by WeWereZombies

The thread title comes from this, part opinion piece and part reportage, article by Jeremy Bowen:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67426546

Depressingly Bowen see the Israeli Defence Force carrying on as they are for at least another couple of weeks.


Unfortunately, I think squeezing the population into the south of Gaza and provoking a full-on humanitarian catastrophe is part of the plan. As is leaving Northern Gaza relatively uninhabitable when it’s all over.

In their words and actions, the Israeli regime want to squeeze the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:27 - Nov 16 with 3711 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:06 - Nov 15 by wkj

"They are collateral damage"

I really don't want to make assumptions on your meaning here, but this is tragic language to pigeonhole the lives of 5000+ children. Lets really abstract this, which seems the most fair logic

1. Don't bomb at a civilian location

2. Don't be where the bombs are dropping

In this scenario #2 is a ridiculous mindset because I am fairly sure a lot of civilians would have limited awareness that their hospital has a Hamas operation inside.

Nobody wins in war, but the idea that masses of innocent victims are collateral damage for some idea of a greater good is a horrible mentality to hold.

I haven't commented on a lot of this discussion so far as I didn't like the early chatter of "If you support this, then your are prejudice". Though I will state that I don't care if its Jews, Hamas, ..., Other - the disregard for human life is aggressive and unjust - and civilians are paying a bigger toll in this conflict than Hamas and IDF are. Its wrong and should not be trivialised in such a way where "They are collateral damage"

Disturbing mindset, utterly chilling.


You are right not to make assumptions although it does read as if you then go on to make assumptions. I am sure your feelings about the death of innocent civilians are no different to mine. I have not offered my view on the loss of life on the Israeli or Palestinian side i have merely used a term which is more correct and implies completely different connotations than "targeted".

Collateral damage is a term used for the accidental injury or death of non-military people. It is an important distinction to make when people are fallaciously stating the IDF are targeting civilians, which implies it is deliberate. One is a tragic consequence of war, one is pure evil to its core.

I find it a ridiculous approach to start asking "how many babies lives....." its a nonsense line of argument and its not a game i am going to play with people. It is also a false moral equivalence when you have a terrorist group who have intentionally murdered civilians, entire families, cut babies out of their mothers before beheading said babies and their mothers. On the other you have a people who are trying to protect their population from further atrocities and in doing so there will inevitably be tragic consequences associated with any action but to do nothing would be the wrong response.

People on here are suggesting the IDF are targeting civilians, I have not seen or read anything that supports this. I am however aware that the IDF are trying to support and preserve life where possible but this is perhaps proving ineffective due to the motives of Hamas not wanting to let Israel achieve this aim. There is evidence to prove this and no i am not going to do peoples homework for them. If there was any evidence to support the indiscriminate killing of civilians by the IDF this would be unacceptable in my view and need condemning, intervention even. The problem is people don't want to acknowledge what is actually happening as it doesn't support their ideology driven agenda.

I have seen left wing propaganda showing a line of babies in a neonatal unit with tanks crashing through the walls. This is purely emotive, fallacious and is not supported by the journalistic reports coming from the hospital.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 15:34]
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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:07 - Nov 16 with 3643 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:27 - Nov 16 by Rob88

You are right not to make assumptions although it does read as if you then go on to make assumptions. I am sure your feelings about the death of innocent civilians are no different to mine. I have not offered my view on the loss of life on the Israeli or Palestinian side i have merely used a term which is more correct and implies completely different connotations than "targeted".

Collateral damage is a term used for the accidental injury or death of non-military people. It is an important distinction to make when people are fallaciously stating the IDF are targeting civilians, which implies it is deliberate. One is a tragic consequence of war, one is pure evil to its core.

I find it a ridiculous approach to start asking "how many babies lives....." its a nonsense line of argument and its not a game i am going to play with people. It is also a false moral equivalence when you have a terrorist group who have intentionally murdered civilians, entire families, cut babies out of their mothers before beheading said babies and their mothers. On the other you have a people who are trying to protect their population from further atrocities and in doing so there will inevitably be tragic consequences associated with any action but to do nothing would be the wrong response.

People on here are suggesting the IDF are targeting civilians, I have not seen or read anything that supports this. I am however aware that the IDF are trying to support and preserve life where possible but this is perhaps proving ineffective due to the motives of Hamas not wanting to let Israel achieve this aim. There is evidence to prove this and no i am not going to do peoples homework for them. If there was any evidence to support the indiscriminate killing of civilians by the IDF this would be unacceptable in my view and need condemning, intervention even. The problem is people don't want to acknowledge what is actually happening as it doesn't support their ideology driven agenda.

I have seen left wing propaganda showing a line of babies in a neonatal unit with tanks crashing through the walls. This is purely emotive, fallacious and is not supported by the journalistic reports coming from the hospital.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 15:34]


I have seen reports before the seventh of October that young Palestinians were being rounded up and shot in the ankles (so as to limit their mobility and 'prevent' them engaging in terrorist activity) but see no mention of this on the Human Rights Watch website, within the last twenty four hours AlJazeera have reported that four refugees in the hospital compound who tried to move to a safer location were shot in the legs by teh Israeli Defence Force but this is second hand and not witnessed by one of their reporters. Likewise, and I have not and would not pruriently go looking for this, seen reports of rape by Hamas on the seventh of October (my scepticism on this is driven by the thought that the killers were only interested in slaughter and the getting away as quickly as possible.)

As in the former Yugoslavia I doubt whether we will be able to get any firm idea on things until forensic teams can get in and carry out their investigations, so months away if not years. In the mean time I suggest all should focus on the minimisation of the loss of life and a realisation that the dead cannot be brought back (although the hostages can.)

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:18 - Nov 16 with 3620 viewsRob88

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:07 - Nov 16 by WeWereZombies

I have seen reports before the seventh of October that young Palestinians were being rounded up and shot in the ankles (so as to limit their mobility and 'prevent' them engaging in terrorist activity) but see no mention of this on the Human Rights Watch website, within the last twenty four hours AlJazeera have reported that four refugees in the hospital compound who tried to move to a safer location were shot in the legs by teh Israeli Defence Force but this is second hand and not witnessed by one of their reporters. Likewise, and I have not and would not pruriently go looking for this, seen reports of rape by Hamas on the seventh of October (my scepticism on this is driven by the thought that the killers were only interested in slaughter and the getting away as quickly as possible.)

As in the former Yugoslavia I doubt whether we will be able to get any firm idea on things until forensic teams can get in and carry out their investigations, so months away if not years. In the mean time I suggest all should focus on the minimisation of the loss of life and a realisation that the dead cannot be brought back (although the hostages can.)


And if true, is disgusting, wrong and I hope those responsible are brought to justice.

I agree with your last paragraph but that also has to be true for the Israelis as well as the Palestinians.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:42 - Nov 16 with 3588 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:27 - Nov 16 by Rob88

You are right not to make assumptions although it does read as if you then go on to make assumptions. I am sure your feelings about the death of innocent civilians are no different to mine. I have not offered my view on the loss of life on the Israeli or Palestinian side i have merely used a term which is more correct and implies completely different connotations than "targeted".

Collateral damage is a term used for the accidental injury or death of non-military people. It is an important distinction to make when people are fallaciously stating the IDF are targeting civilians, which implies it is deliberate. One is a tragic consequence of war, one is pure evil to its core.

I find it a ridiculous approach to start asking "how many babies lives....." its a nonsense line of argument and its not a game i am going to play with people. It is also a false moral equivalence when you have a terrorist group who have intentionally murdered civilians, entire families, cut babies out of their mothers before beheading said babies and their mothers. On the other you have a people who are trying to protect their population from further atrocities and in doing so there will inevitably be tragic consequences associated with any action but to do nothing would be the wrong response.

People on here are suggesting the IDF are targeting civilians, I have not seen or read anything that supports this. I am however aware that the IDF are trying to support and preserve life where possible but this is perhaps proving ineffective due to the motives of Hamas not wanting to let Israel achieve this aim. There is evidence to prove this and no i am not going to do peoples homework for them. If there was any evidence to support the indiscriminate killing of civilians by the IDF this would be unacceptable in my view and need condemning, intervention even. The problem is people don't want to acknowledge what is actually happening as it doesn't support their ideology driven agenda.

I have seen left wing propaganda showing a line of babies in a neonatal unit with tanks crashing through the walls. This is purely emotive, fallacious and is not supported by the journalistic reports coming from the hospital.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 15:34]


The UN Human Rights Chief earlier today said the following.

"It is apparent that on both sides, some view the killing of civilians as either acceptable collateral damage, or a deliberate and useful weapon of war. This is a humanitarian and human rights crisis. It represents a breakdown of the most basic respect for humane values. The killing of so many civilians cannot be dismissed as collateral damage. Not in a kibbutz. Not in a refugee camp. And not in a hospital."

Here is a link to his speech which is worth reading in full.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements-and-speeches/2023/11/un-human-rights-chief-v
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 16:47]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:48 - Nov 16 with 3565 viewsleitrimblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:42 - Nov 16 by DJR

The UN Human Rights Chief earlier today said the following.

"It is apparent that on both sides, some view the killing of civilians as either acceptable collateral damage, or a deliberate and useful weapon of war. This is a humanitarian and human rights crisis. It represents a breakdown of the most basic respect for humane values. The killing of so many civilians cannot be dismissed as collateral damage. Not in a kibbutz. Not in a refugee camp. And not in a hospital."

Here is a link to his speech which is worth reading in full.

https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements-and-speeches/2023/11/un-human-rights-chief-v
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 16:47]


'The killing of so many civilians cannot be dismissed as collateral damage'

Pity some on here keep desperately trying to justify it...
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before its allies say,"you've killed enough people, civilians, you need to on 16:56 - Nov 16 with 3535 viewsDJR

before its allies say,"you've killed enough people, civilians, you need to on 10:44 - Nov 16 by Darth_Koont

Unfortunately, I think squeezing the population into the south of Gaza and provoking a full-on humanitarian catastrophe is part of the plan. As is leaving Northern Gaza relatively uninhabitable when it’s all over.

In their words and actions, the Israeli regime want to squeeze the Palestinians out of Gaza and the West Bank.


The following news items certainly suggest nothing is being done on the part of the Israeli leadership and troops to prevent a humanitarian crisis.

Philippe Lazzarini, the commissioner general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA), has said he believed there was a deliberate attempt to “strangle” its humanitarian work in Gaza.
Speaking to journalists in Geneva on Thursday, he said:
I do believe there is a deliberate attempt to strangle our operation and paralyse the operation.
He added that UNRWA, which supports more than 800,000 displaced Palestinians in Gaza, was at risk of suspending its operations entirely.
The UN agency has pleaded for weeks for access to fuel, he said, adding that it was “outrageous” to force humanitarian aid agencies to beg for fuel.
A truck carrying 24,000 litres (6,340 gallons) of diesel fuel for UN aid distribution trucks was allowed into Gaza on Wednesday – marking the first time Israel has approved a truck carrying fuel into Gaza since the start of the war.
The delivery is nowhere near what people in Gaza need to survive, Lazzarini said, adding:
Because of the lack of fuel, we will not be able to send our trucks across the south of the Gaza Strip where we have people waiting for humanitarian deliveries.

Here is more from Philippe Lazzarini, the commissioner general of the UN agency for Palestinian refugees (UNRWA), who has been speaking to reporters in Geneva today.
Lazzarini said he feared civil order could break down after Gaza was hit with a new communications blackout on Thursday.
“Gaza is again in a total communication blackout, and … it is because there is no fuel,” AFP reported him saying.
He said he was worried that the blackout could heighten panic in the Gaza Strip and erode the last traces of public order.
A communications blackout “triggers and fuels even more the anxiety and the panic”, he said, adding:
This can provoke or accelerate the last remaining civil order that we have in the Gaza Strip. And if this completely breaks down, we will have difficulties to operate in an environment where you do not have a minimum of order.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 17:03]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:18 - Nov 16 with 3468 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:48 - Nov 16 by leitrimblue

'The killing of so many civilians cannot be dismissed as collateral damage'

Pity some on here keep desperately trying to justify it...


I wonder if they would take a different view if it were the UK rather than Israel responsible for the death and injury of so many civilians, given that people are perhaps more inclined to feel greater concern for the actions of their own government.

This is what the UN human rights chief said earlier today: he also mentioned the plight of Israeli civilians.

"One in every 57 people living in the Gaza Strip has been killed or wounded in the past five weeks, according to figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health. Over 11,100 have been killed, more than 4,600 of them children. 102 of those killed were UN staff members: people whose only goal is to assist civilians. More than 26,000 people have been injured, many severely. And at least 2,000 more people are presumed to be trapped under the rubble of completely destroyed neighbourhoods, where there is no capacity to reach or rescue them. An entire population is being deeply traumatised."

Incidentally, that one in 57 figure (which clearly is an underestimate) would represent just over 500 of a packed-out Portman Road.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 17:24]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 16 with 3422 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:18 - Nov 16 by DJR

I wonder if they would take a different view if it were the UK rather than Israel responsible for the death and injury of so many civilians, given that people are perhaps more inclined to feel greater concern for the actions of their own government.

This is what the UN human rights chief said earlier today: he also mentioned the plight of Israeli civilians.

"One in every 57 people living in the Gaza Strip has been killed or wounded in the past five weeks, according to figures from the Gaza Ministry of Health. Over 11,100 have been killed, more than 4,600 of them children. 102 of those killed were UN staff members: people whose only goal is to assist civilians. More than 26,000 people have been injured, many severely. And at least 2,000 more people are presumed to be trapped under the rubble of completely destroyed neighbourhoods, where there is no capacity to reach or rescue them. An entire population is being deeply traumatised."

Incidentally, that one in 57 figure (which clearly is an underestimate) would represent just over 500 of a packed-out Portman Road.
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 17:24]


This is a very difficult and nuanced situation.

Hamas must go and most reasonable people, even lots of Palestinians would agree.

How would you propose this objective was achieved?

I can understand the UNs stance but I can also see that Hamas must go and I don’t see how this is achieved without a direct confrontation.

On a side note I think the UN should be thoroughly embarrassed on its record as most things. It’s one of the most spineless ineffective organisations in existence. Which is a shame as it should be quite the opposite if you consider why and how it was established and what it should stand for.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:48 - Nov 16 with 3398 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 16 by Rob88

This is a very difficult and nuanced situation.

Hamas must go and most reasonable people, even lots of Palestinians would agree.

How would you propose this objective was achieved?

I can understand the UNs stance but I can also see that Hamas must go and I don’t see how this is achieved without a direct confrontation.

On a side note I think the UN should be thoroughly embarrassed on its record as most things. It’s one of the most spineless ineffective organisations in existence. Which is a shame as it should be quite the opposite if you consider why and how it was established and what it should stand for.


The UN should be embarrassed? What do you think they should be embarrassed about?

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 18:14 - Nov 16 with 3324 viewsGlasgowBlue

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 16:18 - Nov 16 by Rob88

And if true, is disgusting, wrong and I hope those responsible are brought to justice.

I agree with your last paragraph but that also has to be true for the Israelis as well as the Palestinians.


I was going to have a day off from commenting on this topic today but having read through the posts logged out, I had the misfortune of seeing Zombies awful "scepticism" around the Hamas rapes on October 7th.

I doubt he will read this on the antisemitic and homophobic Qatari state owned media that he is so fond of endlessly quoting, but there is first hand witness reports of rapes:

“I saw the Palestinians bending her down, raping her and simply passing her on to the next. She was alive when they raped her. She was on her feet and bleeding from her back. He pulled her hair. He shot her in the head while raping her, didn't even lift his pants. They cut her breast and played with it.”



From the Israeli forensic team:

“There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis — women, grandmothers, children.

Disgusting that people are still doubting the scale of the atrocities committed on October 7th. But a timely reminder why I normaly ignore this poster.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:45 - Nov 16 with 3289 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:44 - Nov 16 by Rob88

This is a very difficult and nuanced situation.

Hamas must go and most reasonable people, even lots of Palestinians would agree.

How would you propose this objective was achieved?

I can understand the UNs stance but I can also see that Hamas must go and I don’t see how this is achieved without a direct confrontation.

On a side note I think the UN should be thoroughly embarrassed on its record as most things. It’s one of the most spineless ineffective organisations in existence. Which is a shame as it should be quite the opposite if you consider why and how it was established and what it should stand for.


From Volker Túrk's speech:

'There must be a ceasefire on humanitarian and human rights grounds, and an end to the fighting – not only to deliver urgently needed food and water, but to create the space for a path out of this horror.

Rapid and unimpeded humanitarian assistance throughout Gaza, including fuel, and at the scale required, is urgently needed, and must be facilitated – including through Israeli crossings such as Kerem Shalom. My Office will remain deeply engaged, and I stress the importance of full access to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Gaza, for my Office, to ensure full and independent monitoring and documentation, and to coordinate protection work.

I further urge Israeli authorities to take immediate measures to ensure that the security forces comply with their obligations as an occupying power to protect Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, including from violence by settlers. Continued, widespread impunity for such violations must stop.'

So it sounds like the blue helmets could be about to go in and, as we abstained from the vote on the resolution, the United Kingdom and the United States may not be involved. Please no wailing and a moaning because the action is not what you want to the last letter or that things pan out badly because none of us realised exactly how bad this was becoming before the seventh of October and how catastrophic it now is. Surely anyone who has been following these tragic events can see that the time for kicking the can down the road is over, that trust in the Israeli Defence Force is almost as non-existent as it is in Hamas, and that a unified International force with unified International support (excepting Russia, what happened to Homs and Mariupol is currently being done to Gaza City so I think there is no hope of their agreement) must act now.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:55 - Nov 16 with 3281 viewspointofblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:45 - Nov 16 by WeWereZombies

From Volker Túrk's speech:

'There must be a ceasefire on humanitarian and human rights grounds, and an end to the fighting – not only to deliver urgently needed food and water, but to create the space for a path out of this horror.

Rapid and unimpeded humanitarian assistance throughout Gaza, including fuel, and at the scale required, is urgently needed, and must be facilitated – including through Israeli crossings such as Kerem Shalom. My Office will remain deeply engaged, and I stress the importance of full access to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian Territory, including Gaza, for my Office, to ensure full and independent monitoring and documentation, and to coordinate protection work.

I further urge Israeli authorities to take immediate measures to ensure that the security forces comply with their obligations as an occupying power to protect Palestinians in the occupied West Bank, including from violence by settlers. Continued, widespread impunity for such violations must stop.'

So it sounds like the blue helmets could be about to go in and, as we abstained from the vote on the resolution, the United Kingdom and the United States may not be involved. Please no wailing and a moaning because the action is not what you want to the last letter or that things pan out badly because none of us realised exactly how bad this was becoming before the seventh of October and how catastrophic it now is. Surely anyone who has been following these tragic events can see that the time for kicking the can down the road is over, that trust in the Israeli Defence Force is almost as non-existent as it is in Hamas, and that a unified International force with unified International support (excepting Russia, what happened to Homs and Mariupol is currently being done to Gaza City so I think there is no hope of their agreement) must act now.


Did NATO/the UN go into Bosnia at the request of a government, or did they go in at the behest of the central.organisation/s?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:05 - Nov 16 with 3256 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:55 - Nov 16 by pointofblue

Did NATO/the UN go into Bosnia at the request of a government, or did they go in at the behest of the central.organisation/s?


It just takes a quick Google:

https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/99-01/boulden.pdf

'Second, the involvement of NATO as the implementer of Security Council resolutions
meant the addition of more than just NATO’s military assets to the United Nations
decision-making process. NATO’s military involvement brought with it an added layer of
political decision-making.'

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So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 19:16 - Nov 16 with 3224 viewsWeWereZombies

So do we go with Zimmerman and say 'Propaganda, all is phoney ?' on 18:14 - Nov 16 by GlasgowBlue

I was going to have a day off from commenting on this topic today but having read through the posts logged out, I had the misfortune of seeing Zombies awful "scepticism" around the Hamas rapes on October 7th.

I doubt he will read this on the antisemitic and homophobic Qatari state owned media that he is so fond of endlessly quoting, but there is first hand witness reports of rapes:

“I saw the Palestinians bending her down, raping her and simply passing her on to the next. She was alive when they raped her. She was on her feet and bleeding from her back. He pulled her hair. He shot her in the head while raping her, didn't even lift his pants. They cut her breast and played with it.”



From the Israeli forensic team:

“There is evidence of mass rape so brutal that they broke their victims’ pelvis — women, grandmothers, children.

Disgusting that people are still doubting the scale of the atrocities committed on October 7th. But a timely reminder why I normaly ignore this poster.


Please fully ignore me. life is so much more peaceful and reasoned without your presence.

Poll: How will we get fourteen points from the last five games ?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:49 - Nov 16 with 3184 viewsDJR

The south of Gaza is neither safe from bombing nor habitable.





EDIT:

"If the bombs don't kill people in Gaza, the diseases will," Dr Margaret Harris, a spokesperson for the World Health Organization (WHO), has told BBC Radio 4.

Harris says Palestinians in Gaza are facing "rampant gastroenteritis", limited clean water, pouring rain, a sewage system that doesn't work, with huge numbers of people living in tents.

"You don’t have to be a public health expert to realise how disastrous this is," she adds, calling the situation "a perfect storm".
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 20:21]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:28 - Nov 16 with 3078 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:48 - Nov 16 by noggin

The UN should be embarrassed? What do you think they should be embarrassed about?


The most recent would probably be Ukraine.

It’s no longer fit for purpose if it cannot take action on war crimes or crimes against humanity. Permanent members and their allies can’t really be taken to task on their actions. Two of the biggest perpetrators are China and Russia. They can act without impunity.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:36 - Nov 16 with 3056 viewsSwansea_Blue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:49 - Nov 16 by DJR

The south of Gaza is neither safe from bombing nor habitable.





EDIT:

"If the bombs don't kill people in Gaza, the diseases will," Dr Margaret Harris, a spokesperson for the World Health Organization (WHO), has told BBC Radio 4.

Harris says Palestinians in Gaza are facing "rampant gastroenteritis", limited clean water, pouring rain, a sewage system that doesn't work, with huge numbers of people living in tents.

"You don’t have to be a public health expert to realise how disastrous this is," she adds, calling the situation "a perfect storm".
[Post edited 16 Nov 2023 20:21]


“Harris says Palestinians in Gaza are facing "rampant gastroenteritis", limited clean water, pouring rain, a sewage system that doesn't work, with huge numbers of people living in tents.”

Sounds just like the UK.

More seriously, it’s sounding pretty desperate. I’m finding the disconnect between the UN reporting and our country’s response quite jarring. I know the UN have no teeth, but at least we could listen. (By ‘we’ I mean the political classes).

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:55 - Nov 16 with 3014 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:28 - Nov 16 by Rob88

The most recent would probably be Ukraine.

It’s no longer fit for purpose if it cannot take action on war crimes or crimes against humanity. Permanent members and their allies can’t really be taken to task on their actions. Two of the biggest perpetrators are China and Russia. They can act without impunity.


What exactly do you expect the UN to do if powerful nations don't respect them? Someone posted earlier that 102 of their staff have been killed in Gaza. I think you should be embarrassed by your comment.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 02:29 - Nov 17 with 2927 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:55 - Nov 16 by noggin

What exactly do you expect the UN to do if powerful nations don't respect them? Someone posted earlier that 102 of their staff have been killed in Gaza. I think you should be embarrassed by your comment.


I expect the UN to get in the middle of things with respect to security, humanitarian and negotiations to establish peace for Israelis and Palestinians.

Wasn’t that why the UN was founded?

So with respect to the founding mission statement of the organisation, from the top of my head, I’d say they have failed in Israel/Palestine, Yemen, Ukraine, Rwanda, Bosnia, Syria, China (they’re committing genocide with impunity).

The problem the UN seems to have is that it’s not in the interests of some of its members for the UN to get involved (from chaos comes (new) order. But if the mission of the UN can be so easily nullified then it’s not particularly fit for purpose in my eyes as it has no purpose in such a case.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 2:40]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 03:07 - Nov 17 with 2914 viewsJoey_Joe_Joe_Junior

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 02:29 - Nov 17 by Rob88

I expect the UN to get in the middle of things with respect to security, humanitarian and negotiations to establish peace for Israelis and Palestinians.

Wasn’t that why the UN was founded?

So with respect to the founding mission statement of the organisation, from the top of my head, I’d say they have failed in Israel/Palestine, Yemen, Ukraine, Rwanda, Bosnia, Syria, China (they’re committing genocide with impunity).

The problem the UN seems to have is that it’s not in the interests of some of its members for the UN to get involved (from chaos comes (new) order. But if the mission of the UN can be so easily nullified then it’s not particularly fit for purpose in my eyes as it has no purpose in such a case.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 2:40]


A look at comments and very open tweets from members of its agencies like the UNRWA on October 8th are quite telling.

You only have to look at the world today to realize it’s completely unfit for purpose and has been for sometime.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 05:31 - Nov 17 with 2868 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 02:29 - Nov 17 by Rob88

I expect the UN to get in the middle of things with respect to security, humanitarian and negotiations to establish peace for Israelis and Palestinians.

Wasn’t that why the UN was founded?

So with respect to the founding mission statement of the organisation, from the top of my head, I’d say they have failed in Israel/Palestine, Yemen, Ukraine, Rwanda, Bosnia, Syria, China (they’re committing genocide with impunity).

The problem the UN seems to have is that it’s not in the interests of some of its members for the UN to get involved (from chaos comes (new) order. But if the mission of the UN can be so easily nullified then it’s not particularly fit for purpose in my eyes as it has no purpose in such a case.
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 2:40]


“I expect the UN to get in the middle of things with respect to security, humanitarian and negotiations to establish peace for Israelis and Palestinians.”

If there’s to be a peacekeeping force, it has to be a coalition of some sort. There is precedence for the toothlessness of the UN. They failed to enforce the ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah/Lebanon after the conflict in 2006. The UN peacekeeping force didn’t follow through with the agreed disarmament of Hezbollah, refused to interdict weapons, and rockets continued to fire into Israel (with the IDF retaliating on some occasions).
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:26 - Nov 17 with 2811 viewsDJR

Those of you having a go at the UN should realise there is a difference between the Security Council (where there is often deadlock) and UN agencies which act independently and regardless deadlock in the Security Council.

Examples include UNICEF, the UN World Food Programme, UN Human Rights Office and UNWRA (which supports the relief and development of Palestinians). And don't forget that the Secretary General has been free to condemn what is going on in Gaza.

When it comes to the Security Council, the US has frequently vetoed resolutions critical of Israel. And when it comes to those that have been passed, Israel has ignored them, with the tacit acceptance of the US.

UNWRA and other organisations such as MSF and the International Red Crescent have been on the ground in Gaza for a long time before 7 October, but the unique thing about this conflict is that as the demand for their services has increased, their ability to function has been increasingly emasculated. This is in marked contrast to other war zones where conflict leads to increased aid.

And this is what the World Food Programme is saying.

The UN World Food Programme (WFP) has warned that the Gaza Strip now faces a “massive” food gap and widespread hunger while nearly the entire population of the Palestinian enclave is in “desperate” need of food assistance.

In a statement on Thursday, WFP executive director Cindy McCain said food and water supplies are “practically non-existent” in Gaza that “civilians are facing the immediate possibility of starvation.”

And here is a recent statement from UNICEF.

https://www.unicef.org/emergencies/children-gaza-need-lifesaving-support
[Post edited 17 Nov 2023 8:34]
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