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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257395 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:18 - Nov 28 with 2887 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:11 - Nov 28 by Rob88

Removing Hamas will.

I don’t think anyone sane thinks what you have suggested.


What have I suggested?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:27 - Nov 28 with 2847 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:55 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

I’m struggling to see your point if you’re saying you agree with the aim of destroying Hamas but not the reality.


Many people seem to think leaving Hamas in place to keep terrorising 2 Million citizens and continuing to kill people in Isreal and Gaza is also acceptable.

The question in the OP, is how many Palestinian lives is sufficient.

In Sri Lanka, as in my example, there was an ongoing conflict, that kept bubbling away, and causing death and misery, and there was no end insight. Until it was ended, brutally, but ended.

An alternative question could be, knowing what Hamas have done in recent history, and on the 7th of October, how many lives are people willing to trade, to leave Hamas in place?

To me that is a moral question.

Should Hamas, not a mythical open to negotiation style Hamas, but the 7th of October Hamas, be removed or not?

As soon as that line has been crossed, then we are talking about reality, tactics and practicalities.
As horrible as that thought was.

Early in the thread, I did mentioned two other approaches, they were obscure references, but neither, I think would be practical, and not likely to be violence free.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:31 - Nov 28 with 2828 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:27 - Nov 28 by eireblue

Many people seem to think leaving Hamas in place to keep terrorising 2 Million citizens and continuing to kill people in Isreal and Gaza is also acceptable.

The question in the OP, is how many Palestinian lives is sufficient.

In Sri Lanka, as in my example, there was an ongoing conflict, that kept bubbling away, and causing death and misery, and there was no end insight. Until it was ended, brutally, but ended.

An alternative question could be, knowing what Hamas have done in recent history, and on the 7th of October, how many lives are people willing to trade, to leave Hamas in place?

To me that is a moral question.

Should Hamas, not a mythical open to negotiation style Hamas, but the 7th of October Hamas, be removed or not?

As soon as that line has been crossed, then we are talking about reality, tactics and practicalities.
As horrible as that thought was.

Early in the thread, I did mentioned two other approaches, they were obscure references, but neither, I think would be practical, and not likely to be violence free.


So you think eliminating Hamas would end the violence and that tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of innocent lives is a price worth paying?
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 16:35]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:38 - Nov 28 with 2813 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:27 - Nov 28 by eireblue

Many people seem to think leaving Hamas in place to keep terrorising 2 Million citizens and continuing to kill people in Isreal and Gaza is also acceptable.

The question in the OP, is how many Palestinian lives is sufficient.

In Sri Lanka, as in my example, there was an ongoing conflict, that kept bubbling away, and causing death and misery, and there was no end insight. Until it was ended, brutally, but ended.

An alternative question could be, knowing what Hamas have done in recent history, and on the 7th of October, how many lives are people willing to trade, to leave Hamas in place?

To me that is a moral question.

Should Hamas, not a mythical open to negotiation style Hamas, but the 7th of October Hamas, be removed or not?

As soon as that line has been crossed, then we are talking about reality, tactics and practicalities.
As horrible as that thought was.

Early in the thread, I did mentioned two other approaches, they were obscure references, but neither, I think would be practical, and not likely to be violence free.


I think making this a red line isn't a very productive or fair way of looking at it.

It massively increases the threat and danger to civilians on the ground while not addressing the underlying problem of Israeli occupation and oppression that has clearly never been a red line issue for Israel and its supporters like the US and the UK.

I would expect that in any peace settlement the need for truth, reconciliation and in a number of cases prosecution for crimes against humanity. But if we can't agree that stopping these crimes happening now is the most important thing then we clearly need to reassess our priorities.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:51 - Nov 28 with 2779 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:45 - Nov 28 by noggin

That sounds like you support what Israel is doing. You want Hamas destroyed but you haven't told us how that happens without the mass murder of civilians.


As above, and previously, I don’t know.

I have mentioned before, anyone could conceive of different things, to me that are magical, wishful, hopeful, impractical, and also hard to predict, since you have to consider how a organisation such as Hamas would react.

To me this is a moral question first.

Leaving Hamas in place is not a choice for peace and non-violence and zero deaths.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:54 - Nov 28 with 2759 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:51 - Nov 28 by eireblue

As above, and previously, I don’t know.

I have mentioned before, anyone could conceive of different things, to me that are magical, wishful, hopeful, impractical, and also hard to predict, since you have to consider how a organisation such as Hamas would react.

To me this is a moral question first.

Leaving Hamas in place is not a choice for peace and non-violence and zero deaths.


"Leaving Hamas in place is not a choice for peace and non-violence and zero deaths"

But neither is flattening Gaza and wiping out it's people, which is the only way to remove Hamas.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 16:57]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:56 - Nov 28 with 2751 viewsDarth_Koont

On a related note, but it's worth understanding how getting rid of Hamas is a false victory even if it could be achieved in practice and at massive civilian cost.

Here's the BBC describing all the groups involved: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67480680

And when re-armament and re-grouping for these militias means gathering together some Kalashnikovs, a couple of Toyota pick-ups and a bunch of angry youths with little to no future — all in abundant supply or easily gettable — then it's strategically incoherent as well.

Unfortunately, I think bombing and displacing civilians to kill them, destroy their infrastructure and get them to leave Gaza is the real strategy of the Israeli regime. But "destroying Hamas" obviously sounds a lot better and more surgical in this PC world.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:05 - Nov 28 with 2698 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:31 - Nov 28 by noggin

So you think eliminating Hamas would end the violence and that tens of thousands (probably hundreds of thousands) of innocent lives is a price worth paying?
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 16:35]


It is easy to pose these questions, how many civilian deaths are acceptable to you to leave Hamas in place?

If Hamas are only partially successful killing some civilians, say on average 20 a month, is that acceptable, is 100?
If you were in charge, what number would you be acceptable?

These are just questions to polarise people. There isn’t a single person on this thread that wants civilians killed.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:09 - Nov 28 with 2678 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:56 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

On a related note, but it's worth understanding how getting rid of Hamas is a false victory even if it could be achieved in practice and at massive civilian cost.

Here's the BBC describing all the groups involved: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67480680

And when re-armament and re-grouping for these militias means gathering together some Kalashnikovs, a couple of Toyota pick-ups and a bunch of angry youths with little to no future — all in abundant supply or easily gettable — then it's strategically incoherent as well.

Unfortunately, I think bombing and displacing civilians to kill them, destroy their infrastructure and get them to leave Gaza is the real strategy of the Israeli regime. But "destroying Hamas" obviously sounds a lot better and more surgical in this PC world.


hamas in gaza are not "a bunch of angry youths with Kalashnikovs, and a couple of Toyota pick-ups". you know that so why would you try to misrepresent it?

hamas are well funded and well equipped and trained by iran and others, they have a sophisticated military infrastructure and they have been firing rockets into israel for years and right up until the current pause in fighting. there is certainly no military means to remove all future armed opposition to israel, but hamas are on a different scale and present a much higher level of threat to israel. pretending that they are angry youths with pickup trucks is dishonest.

as ever, you are pushing a one sided and ideologically slanted view.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

1
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:12 - Nov 28 with 2661 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:09 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

hamas in gaza are not "a bunch of angry youths with Kalashnikovs, and a couple of Toyota pick-ups". you know that so why would you try to misrepresent it?

hamas are well funded and well equipped and trained by iran and others, they have a sophisticated military infrastructure and they have been firing rockets into israel for years and right up until the current pause in fighting. there is certainly no military means to remove all future armed opposition to israel, but hamas are on a different scale and present a much higher level of threat to israel. pretending that they are angry youths with pickup trucks is dishonest.

as ever, you are pushing a one sided and ideologically slanted view.


How will Israel know when they have eliminated Hamas? Surely the only way is to kill every man and boy in Gaza.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:15 - Nov 28 with 2641 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:05 - Nov 28 by eireblue

It is easy to pose these questions, how many civilian deaths are acceptable to you to leave Hamas in place?

If Hamas are only partially successful killing some civilians, say on average 20 a month, is that acceptable, is 100?
If you were in charge, what number would you be acceptable?

These are just questions to polarise people. There isn’t a single person on this thread that wants civilians killed.


Were they killing 20 a month prior to October 7th?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:17 - Nov 28 with 2630 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:12 - Nov 28 by noggin

How will Israel know when they have eliminated Hamas? Surely the only way is to kill every man and boy in Gaza.


Terrorist organisations have been defeated or given up without having to kill everyone.
You know this.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:21 - Nov 28 with 2611 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:17 - Nov 28 by eireblue

Terrorist organisations have been defeated or given up without having to kill everyone.
You know this.


That doesn't answer my question. The situation in Gaza is not the same as Sri Lanka, or anywhere else on earth.
I believe that the only way to wipe out Hamas is to kill every man and boy in Gaza. Is that acceptable?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:24 - Nov 28 with 2591 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:09 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

hamas in gaza are not "a bunch of angry youths with Kalashnikovs, and a couple of Toyota pick-ups". you know that so why would you try to misrepresent it?

hamas are well funded and well equipped and trained by iran and others, they have a sophisticated military infrastructure and they have been firing rockets into israel for years and right up until the current pause in fighting. there is certainly no military means to remove all future armed opposition to israel, but hamas are on a different scale and present a much higher level of threat to israel. pretending that they are angry youths with pickup trucks is dishonest.

as ever, you are pushing a one sided and ideologically slanted view.


The one-sided, ideologically slanted representation is coming from you. As ever

Please detail this "sophisticated military infrastructure". I don't doubt that AK-47s, hand grenades and home-made rockets etc. have killed and will kill again. The terror is real and not to be dismissed.

But sophisticated military infrastructure it ain't. So rearming and regrouping wouldn't be much of an issue. That's the real point.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:31 - Nov 28 with 2561 viewseireblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:21 - Nov 28 by noggin

That doesn't answer my question. The situation in Gaza is not the same as Sri Lanka, or anywhere else on earth.
I believe that the only way to wipe out Hamas is to kill every man and boy in Gaza. Is that acceptable?


Well I have more faith in humans than you do.

If you want an argument on numbers, find someone else, but with that poster, at least state the number you will allow Hamas to kill. Then you can do the number thing.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:52 - Nov 28 with 2506 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:24 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

The one-sided, ideologically slanted representation is coming from you. As ever

Please detail this "sophisticated military infrastructure". I don't doubt that AK-47s, hand grenades and home-made rockets etc. have killed and will kill again. The terror is real and not to be dismissed.

But sophisticated military infrastructure it ain't. So rearming and regrouping wouldn't be much of an issue. That's the real point.


https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-power#

but you know this. no democracy would tolerate an armed force such as this on its border, attacking it daily and committed to the annihilation of it and its population. no country would respond to 7th october by negotiating with the terrorists who committed it.

if, as your first post suggested, israel was able to swap iran funded and equipped hamas for angry youths in pick up trucks I suspect it would consider it an improvement.

until you engage with the reality of hamas your preachy solutions to the current crisis can't be taken seriously.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:01 - Nov 28 with 2471 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:52 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-power#

but you know this. no democracy would tolerate an armed force such as this on its border, attacking it daily and committed to the annihilation of it and its population. no country would respond to 7th october by negotiating with the terrorists who committed it.

if, as your first post suggested, israel was able to swap iran funded and equipped hamas for angry youths in pick up trucks I suspect it would consider it an improvement.

until you engage with the reality of hamas your preachy solutions to the current crisis can't be taken seriously.


"no democracy would tolerate an armed force such as this on its border"

Which border? Gaza is not a country and neither is Palestine, so there is no border.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:30 - Nov 28 with 2422 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:52 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

https://www.axios.com/2023/10/21/palestine-hamas-military-power#

but you know this. no democracy would tolerate an armed force such as this on its border, attacking it daily and committed to the annihilation of it and its population. no country would respond to 7th october by negotiating with the terrorists who committed it.

if, as your first post suggested, israel was able to swap iran funded and equipped hamas for angry youths in pick up trucks I suspect it would consider it an improvement.

until you engage with the reality of hamas your preachy solutions to the current crisis can't be taken seriously.


But the weaponry used by Hamas in the massacre was little more than AK-47s, RPGs and explosives — all easily replaceable. Same with the fighters given Palestinan youth have been born and raised into violence without hope.

I'm not saying there isn't some sophisticated weaponry but that and the rockets aren't needed for these attacks or in the future. They have no problem using old, improvised and/or home-made weapons and ordnance. That, along with the host of other militant factions in the wings, is my point. Supposedly destroying Hamas and its capabilities doesn't change the underlying threat or solve any long-term problems for Israel. Even if that didn't mean a horrific civilian death toll in Gaza.

As for tolerating armed forces on their border, no people should tolerate occupation and oppression with no protective borders to call their own so I guess we need to redefine the situation and tolerance for both sets of civilians instead of demanding it unilaterally on the side of the occupier and oppressor.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:32 - Nov 28 with 2402 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:30 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

But the weaponry used by Hamas in the massacre was little more than AK-47s, RPGs and explosives — all easily replaceable. Same with the fighters given Palestinan youth have been born and raised into violence without hope.

I'm not saying there isn't some sophisticated weaponry but that and the rockets aren't needed for these attacks or in the future. They have no problem using old, improvised and/or home-made weapons and ordnance. That, along with the host of other militant factions in the wings, is my point. Supposedly destroying Hamas and its capabilities doesn't change the underlying threat or solve any long-term problems for Israel. Even if that didn't mean a horrific civilian death toll in Gaza.

As for tolerating armed forces on their border, no people should tolerate occupation and oppression with no protective borders to call their own so I guess we need to redefine the situation and tolerance for both sets of civilians instead of demanding it unilaterally on the side of the occupier and oppressor.


for the past decade the occupying force in gaza has been hamas.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:34 - Nov 28 with 2381 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:30 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

But the weaponry used by Hamas in the massacre was little more than AK-47s, RPGs and explosives — all easily replaceable. Same with the fighters given Palestinan youth have been born and raised into violence without hope.

I'm not saying there isn't some sophisticated weaponry but that and the rockets aren't needed for these attacks or in the future. They have no problem using old, improvised and/or home-made weapons and ordnance. That, along with the host of other militant factions in the wings, is my point. Supposedly destroying Hamas and its capabilities doesn't change the underlying threat or solve any long-term problems for Israel. Even if that didn't mean a horrific civilian death toll in Gaza.

As for tolerating armed forces on their border, no people should tolerate occupation and oppression with no protective borders to call their own so I guess we need to redefine the situation and tolerance for both sets of civilians instead of demanding it unilaterally on the side of the occupier and oppressor.


Child abusers.


Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:41 - Nov 28 with 2356 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:32 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

for the past decade the occupying force in gaza has been hamas.


I'm not going to excuse Hamas but you're talking about what's going on in the world's biggest and now semi-permanent refugee camp imposed on the Palestinian people by Israel and its supporters.

I'm not sure Glib Sociopath is that great a look outside Labour right circles.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:50 - Nov 28 with 2323 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 13:50 - Nov 28 by StokieBlue

You can't just ignore the actions the Israeli government is taking to achieve that goal though.

You're entirely right to call the awful events of the 7th October a massacre.

What terminology would you use for killing of ~14,000 civilians, many of them children and the systematic and forceful relocation of many more from their homes?

SB
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 13:51]


I've given my opinion on the Israeli response on several occasions. Disproportionate, Indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians, war crimes in cutting off power and water as collective responsibility.

But it's very odd that every time I call the actions of Hamas on 7 October "a masacre" you want me to follow it up with condemnation of the Israeli military response. It creates a false equivalence.

Iron Lion Zion
Poll: Our best central defensive partnership?
Blog: [Blog] For the Sake of My Football Club, Please Go

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:52 - Nov 28 with 2323 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:34 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

Child abusers.



That's disgusting. But not sure how it relates here.

An estimated 6,000 children are dead in Gaza. With more to come as people continue to use whatever they can to justify further killing of innocents cursed by where they were born.

As awful as that is, it wouldn't come close to justifying what happened to Eitan either.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:53 - Nov 28 with 2315 viewslowhouseblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:41 - Nov 28 by Darth_Koont

I'm not going to excuse Hamas but you're talking about what's going on in the world's biggest and now semi-permanent refugee camp imposed on the Palestinian people by Israel and its supporters.

I'm not sure Glib Sociopath is that great a look outside Labour right circles.


to be clear, the oslo accords established the palestinian authority to govern gaza, which it did until hamas took over in a battle with fatah. hamas waged war with israel and israel then withdrew from gaza and dismantled its settlements there. israel and egypt then closed their borders with gaza. your misrepresentation of this history is clearly for a purpose.

And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:59 - Nov 28 with 2256 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:53 - Nov 28 by lowhouseblue

to be clear, the oslo accords established the palestinian authority to govern gaza, which it did until hamas took over in a battle with fatah. hamas waged war with israel and israel then withdrew from gaza and dismantled its settlements there. israel and egypt then closed their borders with gaza. your misrepresentation of this history is clearly for a purpose.


They are refugees without a state or any meaningful recognition of their rights as human beings.

Your misrepresentation of their reality and their humanity is expected.

Pronouns: He/Him

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