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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257348 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:40 - Nov 30 with 3945 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:47 - Nov 30 by Nthsuffolkblue

In the latest incident, a UNIFIL patrol was hit by Israeli gunfire in the vicinity of Aytaroun of southern Lebanon, although there were no casualties. The U.N. force called the attack on "deeply troubling".


But Israel. Top whatabouterry there.

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:55 - Nov 30 with 3929 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:33 - Nov 30 by SuperKieranMcKenna

Any reason that’s your takeaway? Hezbollah have instigated the attacks, they killed a peacekeeper recently:

“Last December, an Irish soldier serving in UNIFIL was killed after the UNIFIL vehicle he was travelling in was fired on as it travelled in southern Lebanon. Seven people were charged by a Lebanese military tribunal in January for his death, the first fatal attack on U.N. peacekeepers in Lebanon since 2015.”

As an aside UNFIL were supposed to disarm Hezbollah as part of the terms of the 2006 ceasefire- but they did not carry this out. They are not Hamas they are much more highly trained and armed (to the extent that they can operate with impunity in Lebanon). In fact they are better armed than many states, with guided missiles and heavy artillery - hence Israel has to respond. This isn’t Gaza, of 100 people killed in Lebanon 80 are Hezbollah militants. They’ve instigated these attacks on Israel in order to trigger a wider war - and for once Israel has acted with relative restraint.


The point was that Israel are also at fault. You highlighted Iran. Some seem to be failing appreciate there is a balance here. Any reason why you object to both points being made?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:57 - Nov 30 with 3919 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:40 - Nov 30 by GlasgowBlue

But Israel. Top whatabouterry there.


Please explain that. The article referenced both incidents. Why should only one be highlighted? Not whatabouterry but balance as you well know and would have referenced yourself had someone posted the same article and only highlighted the Israeli attack.
[Post edited 30 Nov 2023 22:02]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:04 - Nov 30 with 3876 viewsSuperKieranMcKenna

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:55 - Nov 30 by Nthsuffolkblue

The point was that Israel are also at fault. You highlighted Iran. Some seem to be failing appreciate there is a balance here. Any reason why you object to both points being made?


I’ve explained the context in a good amount of detail.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:22 - Nov 30 with 3827 viewsRyorry

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:28 - Nov 28 by GlasgowBlue

Have to disagree with you there Rory. Hamas aren't a terrorist organisation that could fall into the gray area of "freedom fighters".

There only cause is to wipe out every Jew in the middle east. They are no different to ISIS or al-Qaeda.

The hearts and minds strategy needs to be with the Palestinian Authority. Although Bibi is not the man to enter into those negotiations and should be removed from power by the Knesset.
[Post edited 28 Nov 2023 11:32]


It doesn't matter what they're called, a plop by any other name would smell as disgusting.

The point is to remove Palestinians' desire to "wipe out" the State of Israel and/or all Jews in the Middle East. Trying to do that by force is a never-ending , self-fulfilling legacy of equivalent to a puppy chasing its tail - only the puppy will never grow up.

The only route to stopping the permanent state of war is through talking, negotiating & political representation, as I think others have said.

Apols for not replying to this before, but I find I can't emotionally or mentally (not to mention timewise as it's so fast-moving) take a lot of this thread - and I know that I'm lucky to be able to opt out, unlike those on the ground.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:42 - Dec 1 with 3734 viewsDarth_Koont

Depressing that the fighting has resumed.

Clearly the temporary ceasefire hasn't been nearly long enough to reverse the underlying humanitarian crisis or the release of more hostages.

This is the time for us in the west to be applying serious pressure on Israel. Or if not, at least to hear the endgame spelled out. We can't wring our hands and say how regrettable the situation is, as we just nod along to this.

Permanent ceasefire now!

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:44 - Dec 1 with 3733 viewsGlasgowBlue

Oh well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/30/jerusalem-bus-stop-shooting-attack

Hamas end ceasefire a day earlier than I had originally thought.

edit. edit. I was reminded by my very good friend Banksy, via the medium of PM as he has taken a public vow of silence, that the IDF have been taking out members of Hamas in the West Bank during the ceasefire.

edit.edit. edit. Banksy would like me to clarify that the people taken out in the west bank were not members of Hamas. They were senior commanders for Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Mohammed Zubeidi and Wissam Hanoun.

Don't want to give those lovely fellas in Hamas a bad rep by associating them with Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The splitters.
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 22:50]

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:13 - Dec 1 with 3687 viewsGlasgowBlue

Animals


Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:16 - Dec 1 with 3635 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 07:44 - Dec 1 by GlasgowBlue

Oh well.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/30/jerusalem-bus-stop-shooting-attack

Hamas end ceasefire a day earlier than I had originally thought.

edit. edit. I was reminded by my very good friend Banksy, via the medium of PM as he has taken a public vow of silence, that the IDF have been taking out members of Hamas in the West Bank during the ceasefire.

edit.edit. edit. Banksy would like me to clarify that the people taken out in the west bank were not members of Hamas. They were senior commanders for Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Mohammed Zubeidi and Wissam Hanoun.

Don't want to give those lovely fellas in Hamas a bad rep by associating them with Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The splitters.
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 22:50]


Islamic Jihad have claimed responsibility the the missile attack, not Hamas.

You should really edit your post given your previous stances on false information.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Dec 1 with 3613 viewsDJR

I heard the Unicef spokesperson on the Today programme this morning speaking passionately and describing what is going on as a war on children. And its not just those killed that are affected because he poignantly referred to a young boy with a missing leg who was still clutching a football.

Here is a report from the Guardian about a video he put out.

The Unicef spokesperson James Elder has reported that an airstrike landed about 50 metres away from the “biggest still functioning hospital in Gaza”.

“This hospital simply cannot take more children with the wounds of war,” he says in a video posted on X. He pans briefly to children asleep on the floor of a hospital room. Elder is the chief of communications for Unicef. His post was accompanied with the caption: “Has humanity given up on the children of Gaza?”

“I cannot overstate how the capacity has been reduced in hospitals over the last seven weeks. We cannot see more children with the wounds of war, with the burns, the shrapnel littering their body, with their broken bones. Inaction from those with influence is allowing the killing of children. This is a war on children.”

EDIT: here is a link to the video.

[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 9:33]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:55 - Dec 1 with 3537 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:16 - Dec 1 by StokieBlue

Islamic Jihad have claimed responsibility the the missile attack, not Hamas.

You should really edit your post given your previous stances on false information.

SB


Done.

edit. Although I just saw a spokesman for the Israeli government state that it was Hamas that had started firing the rockets. So I suppose it comes down to whether you believe the Israeli government or a genocidal, Jew hating death cult
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 18:08]

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:20 - Dec 1 with 3496 viewsDarth_Koont

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:23 - Dec 1 by DJR

I heard the Unicef spokesperson on the Today programme this morning speaking passionately and describing what is going on as a war on children. And its not just those killed that are affected because he poignantly referred to a young boy with a missing leg who was still clutching a football.

Here is a report from the Guardian about a video he put out.

The Unicef spokesperson James Elder has reported that an airstrike landed about 50 metres away from the “biggest still functioning hospital in Gaza”.

“This hospital simply cannot take more children with the wounds of war,” he says in a video posted on X. He pans briefly to children asleep on the floor of a hospital room. Elder is the chief of communications for Unicef. His post was accompanied with the caption: “Has humanity given up on the children of Gaza?”

“I cannot overstate how the capacity has been reduced in hospitals over the last seven weeks. We cannot see more children with the wounds of war, with the burns, the shrapnel littering their body, with their broken bones. Inaction from those with influence is allowing the killing of children. This is a war on children.”

EDIT: here is a link to the video.

[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 9:33]


He's spot on.

Depressing that the world is incapable of intervening to prevent this. But utterly shameful that some countries like our own are effectively STILL backing it.

Pronouns: He/Him

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:34 - Dec 1 with 3384 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:29 - Nov 30 by DJR

Whether you call it a pause or a truce, the humanitarian element appears to be somewhat lacking according to this.

The Palestine Red Crescent has said that, between the start of the temporary ceasefire last Friday and Tuesday evening, 1132 aid lorries have entered the Gaza Strip.

That works out as just over 220 trucks a day.

For context, Philippe Lazzarini, the commissioner-general of UN relief agency UNRWA, told the BBC in October that about 500 trucks a day had been entering Gaza before the war started.

A number of aid agencies have said the amount of aid getting into Gaza is not enough for what is needed.


Given a so-called "humanitarian" pause which appears to have been more of a sticking plaster, it is regrettable to see the following reported by Reuters.

The entry of aid and fuel trucks for the Gaza Strip at Egypt's Rafah crossing halted on Friday, Egyptian security and aid sources said, as Israel resumed its military campaign following a week-long truce.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:45 - Dec 1 with 3327 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 15:17 - Nov 29 by DJR

I am not sure what point you are making.

The point I was making is that, given it is accepted that the 7 October attack was a war crime and that there had been talk of Israel's actions breaching international law by, say, amounting to collective punishment, I was surprised not to have heard article 49(3) of the Fourth Geneva Convention on civilians being invoked.

As it is, I studied Public International Law (which covered this whole area) some forty odd years ago as part of my law degree, so have an interest in international law, although I must admit I have rather forgotten what I learned.

EDIT: Interestingly, article 49(6) of the Convention, as well as other provisions, are relevant to settlements in the West Bank, as the following makes clear.

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/campaigns/2019/01/chapter-3-israeli-settlement
[Post edited 29 Nov 2023 16:38]


The following, from the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, which is well worth reading in full, does invoke the provision contained in article 49(3) of the Fourth Geneva Convention on Civilians.

But provisions such as this are just the sort of thing that our media and politicians either don't have a clue about or don't care about, or both. Or the minsters or lawyers among the politicians may know but choose to ignore.

https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/shelter-crisis-joint
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 20:30]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:56 - Dec 1 with 3308 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:34 - Dec 1 by DJR

Given a so-called "humanitarian" pause which appears to have been more of a sticking plaster, it is regrettable to see the following reported by Reuters.

The entry of aid and fuel trucks for the Gaza Strip at Egypt's Rafah crossing halted on Friday, Egyptian security and aid sources said, as Israel resumed its military campaign following a week-long truce.


Oxfam in this statement mirrors my view that the pause was a sticking plaster.

https://www.oxfamamerica.org/press/press-releases/oxfam-reaction-to-renewal-of-h

The Band-aid has indeed been ripped away from Gaza’s bleeding wound and, in so doing, further denting hopes that humanity might have gained some foothold in the fragile silence of the past seven days. The spectre of further massed forced displacement of people from Khan Younis would, if effected, sharply deepen the unfolding humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:21 - Dec 1 with 3214 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:55 - Dec 1 by GlasgowBlue

Done.

edit. Although I just saw a spokesman for the Israeli government state that it was Hamas that had started firing the rockets. So I suppose it comes down to whether you believe the Israeli government or a genocidal, Jew hating death cult
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 18:08]


Why would you not believe the statement of the terrorist organisation that said they did it and instead decide that the Israeli government source is right? Islamic Jihad have literally said it was them.

I'll also point out that your original edit was incredibly disingenuous.

You're too far into this now, you tweet stuff you often have called out or have to retract and you post stuff which when looked at objectively makes no sense. You're so far into an echo chamber and you don't even realise it.

It's at the point where I don't really see how I can engage with you on the topic. Any real debate is shut down with emotive language and one-sided tweets and any really uncomfortable facts ignored and more emotive statements are made.

I won't be engaging anymore, another one silenced.

SB

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:13 - Dec 1 with 3148 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:21 - Dec 1 by StokieBlue

Why would you not believe the statement of the terrorist organisation that said they did it and instead decide that the Israeli government source is right? Islamic Jihad have literally said it was them.

I'll also point out that your original edit was incredibly disingenuous.

You're too far into this now, you tweet stuff you often have called out or have to retract and you post stuff which when looked at objectively makes no sense. You're so far into an echo chamber and you don't even realise it.

It's at the point where I don't really see how I can engage with you on the topic. Any real debate is shut down with emotive language and one-sided tweets and any really uncomfortable facts ignored and more emotive statements are made.

I won't be engaging anymore, another one silenced.

SB


"You're so far into an echo chamber and you don't even realise it." followed by "I won't be engaging anymore, another one silenced."

Erm. OK.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:19 - Dec 1 with 3092 viewsEireannach_gorm

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:13 - Dec 1 by GlasgowBlue

"You're so far into an echo chamber and you don't even realise it." followed by "I won't be engaging anymore, another one silenced."

Erm. OK.


Because I have chosen to focus on the conflict in Ukraine I have avoided comment on this thread but I have to make one observation about this thread. Similar to all conflicts, this one promotes the extremes while silencing the the middleground. This conflict will be continued until Hamas and the Israeli Right Wing beat themselves ( and enormous amounts of innocents ) to a standstill ( read: death ).

Conflict resolution can only be achieved by looking into the heart of your enemy. Maybe the problem here is to have a death cult in the equation. In general the above applies. I thought of this when our Tánaiste, Michaél Martin visited a kibbutz and talked with the mayor. He was chastised because of the Irish support for the Palestinians and the mayor asked Michaél did his children quake with fear under a rocket bombardment threat. Michaél has lost a child himself. Sometimes taking account of your 'enemies' situation helps to temper your own stance.

I yearn for the day where Israelis and Palestinians can live peacefully beside each other ( because a two state solution seems to be the only way to resolve this ).
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:19 - Dec 1 with 3039 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:55 - Dec 1 by GlasgowBlue

Done.

edit. Although I just saw a spokesman for the Israeli government state that it was Hamas that had started firing the rockets. So I suppose it comes down to whether you believe the Israeli government or a genocidal, Jew hating death cult
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 18:08]


AGain- your accusations are at least partly fair.

But Israel ALSO want to wipe Palestine off the map.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:24 - Dec 1 with 3029 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:19 - Dec 1 by redrickstuhaart

AGain- your accusations are at least partly fair.

But Israel ALSO want to wipe Palestine off the map.


The whole of Israel want to wipe Palestine of the face of the map. Or a few right wing religious zealots in the Israeli coalition government?

Surely you’re not accusing 9 million Israelis collectively?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:36 - Dec 1 with 3022 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:24 - Dec 1 by GlasgowBlue

The whole of Israel want to wipe Palestine of the face of the map. Or a few right wing religious zealots in the Israeli coalition government?

Surely you’re not accusing 9 million Israelis collectively?


Israel, the state. Which, given that is where the power is, is all that matters.

But you knew that.

So we have murderous zealots on both sides, killing innocents on one another's side in pursuit of their aims.

And we have society's that have voted for or supported them for all sorts of complicated reasons.

The difference between them is one has power and support.

You keep talking about Hamas' murderous intent, as if it were not the same on both ends.
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 23:37]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:41 - Dec 1 with 3013 viewspositivity

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:19 - Dec 1 by redrickstuhaart

AGain- your accusations are at least partly fair.

But Israel ALSO want to wipe Palestine off the map.


also (given netanyahu's policy of bolstering hamas against fatah and aim of ensuring palestine never exists) "genocidal, Jew hating death cult" could equally apply to the current israeli government

edit add: i would be more inclined to believe pij's claims of attacking israelis than the israeli government denying it was them. look at the source and look at the agenda of the source
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 23:45]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 06:58 - Dec 2 with 2919 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 23:36 - Dec 1 by redrickstuhaart

Israel, the state. Which, given that is where the power is, is all that matters.

But you knew that.

So we have murderous zealots on both sides, killing innocents on one another's side in pursuit of their aims.

And we have society's that have voted for or supported them for all sorts of complicated reasons.

The difference between them is one has power and support.

You keep talking about Hamas' murderous intent, as if it were not the same on both ends.
[Post edited 1 Dec 2023 23:37]


Then say the Israeli state or Israeli government. People would be apoplectic on here if Isaid Palestine wants to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East, rather than Hamas.

But you’ve used this language before and know exactly what you are doing.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2023 8:42]

Iron Lion Zion
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:09 - Dec 2 with 2861 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:19 - Dec 1 by Eireannach_gorm

Because I have chosen to focus on the conflict in Ukraine I have avoided comment on this thread but I have to make one observation about this thread. Similar to all conflicts, this one promotes the extremes while silencing the the middleground. This conflict will be continued until Hamas and the Israeli Right Wing beat themselves ( and enormous amounts of innocents ) to a standstill ( read: death ).

Conflict resolution can only be achieved by looking into the heart of your enemy. Maybe the problem here is to have a death cult in the equation. In general the above applies. I thought of this when our Tánaiste, Michaél Martin visited a kibbutz and talked with the mayor. He was chastised because of the Irish support for the Palestinians and the mayor asked Michaél did his children quake with fear under a rocket bombardment threat. Michaél has lost a child himself. Sometimes taking account of your 'enemies' situation helps to temper your own stance.

I yearn for the day where Israelis and Palestinians can live peacefully beside each other ( because a two state solution seems to be the only way to resolve this ).


Hear hear, well said.

And congratulations to your Taoiseach for his kind and welcoming words on the release of the nine year old Irish-Israeli hostage.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:20 - Dec 2 with 2832 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 06:58 - Dec 2 by GlasgowBlue

Then say the Israeli state or Israeli government. People would be apoplectic on here if Isaid Palestine wants to wipe out every Jew in the Middle East, rather than Hamas.

But you’ve used this language before and know exactly what you are doing.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2023 8:42]


I said ISRAEL.

I did not say jews, or Israelis.

It is as clear as day unless you are looking for offence. So disingenuous.

Edited, on reflection, to add: How dare you make that insinuation. I used perfectly normal natural language and you are making out that I have deliberately chosen a particular way of saying something out of some anti semitic intent. Seriously, you have become incapable of rational balanced debate on this subject. It is not equivalent to saying "Palestine" wants to wipe Israel off the map, because there is no state of Palestine to refer to. If there was and its stated aim was removal of Israel, I would have said "palestine wants...." etc

You do the same to SB above. Highlighting two separate sentences and implying his entirely natural choice of words is somehow intended to be a holocaust reference. Disgusting, divisive and bigotted.
[Post edited 2 Dec 2023 9:30]
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