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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? 19:54 - Nov 2 with 257389 viewsnoggin

Yeah but Owen Jones...
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 9:05]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:08 - Dec 6 with 3710 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 11:44 - Dec 6 by StokieBlue

You're using an argument from authority fallacy to try and dismiss figures you don't like.

By your logic, all numbers should be dismissed because they will come from a source with a vested interested - clearly a nonsensical position. By that measure we should also question the number of deaths on the 7th October given the source - something I have no reason to do because I accept figures that have been verified.

I really shouldn't have to do this, the burden of proof is on you but given you're derailing and undermining a thread on Palestinian deaths with your nonsense I'll have to do your job for you.

US has confidence in the Palestinian figures:
https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/u-s-officials-have-growing-confidence-in-d

US thinks the Palestinian figures are low-end:

""We think they're very high, frankly," Barbara Leaf, assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs, told a House Foreign Affairs Committee, "and it could be that they're even higher than are being cited."

Independent study on building destruction:
https://abcnews.go.com/International/mapping-destruction-space-half-northern-gaz

There are independent verifications from the UN, MSF and Unicef if you can be bothered to look for them.

Can you please stop trying to undermine the figures for deaths in Gaza - it's misinformation and has no place in this or any other thread.

SB


There was also this from the Lancet which I posted a few days ago.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fullt

And this about UNICEF's view.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/world/gaza-death-toll-accuracy-unicef-intl-hn

And don't forget there are an estimated 7,600 trapped under buildings, so the real death toll must be much higher, given the figures produced represent those who reach hospital morgue, something increasingly difficult even for those not buried under buildings.

And you can see by you own eyes the numbers of destroyed buildings, and scenes of suffering, with even the US concerned about civilian casualties.




[Post edited 6 Dec 2023 12:12]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:59 - Dec 6 with 3627 viewsHerbivore

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67617920

Pretty grim read that and some of the language from high ranking Israeli government officials is rather startling, calling 2m Palestinians living in the West Bank "Nazis" as a means to dehumanize them and legitimise what is effectively state sponsored terrorism from Israeli settlers in the area.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:06 - Dec 6 with 3533 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:59 - Dec 6 by Herbivore

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67617920

Pretty grim read that and some of the language from high ranking Israeli government officials is rather startling, calling 2m Palestinians living in the West Bank "Nazis" as a means to dehumanize them and legitimise what is effectively state sponsored terrorism from Israeli settlers in the area.


Smotrich is a racist and a homophobe who is know for denying the Palestinian people their own state. He shouldn't be anywhere near government.

He's previously been arrested on suspicion of participating in an attempt to blow up a highway. Like Ben-Gvir, he's only in the cabinet to keep Netanyahu out of jail.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:38 - Dec 6 with 3526 viewsHerbivore

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:06 - Dec 6 by GlasgowBlue

Smotrich is a racist and a homophobe who is know for denying the Palestinian people their own state. He shouldn't be anywhere near government.

He's previously been arrested on suspicion of participating in an attempt to blow up a highway. Like Ben-Gvir, he's only in the cabinet to keep Netanyahu out of jail.


I hope both the Palestinians in Gaza and the Israelis come out of this mess with a far higher calibre of leadership. Until and unless they do, there is zero chance of any kind of lasting peace in the region.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:49 - Dec 6 with 3414 viewsRob88

https://lieber.westpoint.edu/idf-hamas-duty-to-warn/

Not a guardian hot take but still might be of interest to some.

Let’s just say it’s an alternative view of reality to “genocide” and “ethnic cleansing”.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:55 - Dec 6 with 3401 viewsRob88

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:08 - Dec 6 by DJR

There was also this from the Lancet which I posted a few days ago.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(23)02640-5/fullt

And this about UNICEF's view.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/07/world/gaza-death-toll-accuracy-unicef-intl-hn

And don't forget there are an estimated 7,600 trapped under buildings, so the real death toll must be much higher, given the figures produced represent those who reach hospital morgue, something increasingly difficult even for those not buried under buildings.

And you can see by you own eyes the numbers of destroyed buildings, and scenes of suffering, with even the US concerned about civilian casualties.




[Post edited 6 Dec 2023 12:12]


That’s not independent verification. Despite SB’s spectacular flouncing has not proven my statement incorrect about the source of the figures.

Just to be clear, it is possible to question a source whilst believing based on presumption that the figures are high. Obviously the confidence associated with said presumption will not be high.

I just find some of this stuff sooo hypocritical for some of you that hold such a high standard normally. Suppose it just comes down to whatever fits your narrative. Shame really.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:58 - Dec 6 with 3381 viewsnoggin

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:55 - Dec 6 by Rob88

That’s not independent verification. Despite SB’s spectacular flouncing has not proven my statement incorrect about the source of the figures.

Just to be clear, it is possible to question a source whilst believing based on presumption that the figures are high. Obviously the confidence associated with said presumption will not be high.

I just find some of this stuff sooo hypocritical for some of you that hold such a high standard normally. Suppose it just comes down to whatever fits your narrative. Shame really.


What exactly would you accept as "independent verification"? The Israeli government?

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:22 - Dec 6 with 3345 viewsredrickstuhaart

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:55 - Dec 6 by Rob88

That’s not independent verification. Despite SB’s spectacular flouncing has not proven my statement incorrect about the source of the figures.

Just to be clear, it is possible to question a source whilst believing based on presumption that the figures are high. Obviously the confidence associated with said presumption will not be high.

I just find some of this stuff sooo hypocritical for some of you that hold such a high standard normally. Suppose it just comes down to whatever fits your narrative. Shame really.


You have difficulties with the concept of proof and the burden of proof don't you?
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:32 - Dec 6 with 3316 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 22:25 - Dec 5 by GlasgowBlue

There you go. On this very thread.

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? by GlasgowBlue 29 Nov 2023 19:23
It depends on what is trying to be negotiated.

If it is some peace and stability, whilst maintaining the status quo, the Israeli should do everything within it's power to prop up Fatah in Gaza once Hamas are out of the way.

But why would Fatah, or anyone from the PA deal with Netanyahu and his coalition of ultra religious zealots. They aren't honest brokers.

Besides which, Abbas and the Fatah leadership are old, weak and don't have the support of the Palestinian people.

In an ideal world, we will reach the stage where Netanyahu and Ben Gvir take the fall for terrible lapse in security on October 7th, and a new government is selected. Probably too much to ask for as moderate party to win as Israel is in siege mode. We saw this in 1996 when Peres lost the election when a two state solution was as close as it has ever been, then Hamas launched a series of suicide attacks and handed the election to Netanyahu. A sliding doors moment. Well done Hamas. Screwed the Palestinian pole over again.



I can see why I didn't think you had answered the question: "if you don't think there should be any negotiation, how do you think peace should be brought about?"

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:33 - Dec 6 with 3316 viewsStokieBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:55 - Dec 6 by Rob88

That’s not independent verification. Despite SB’s spectacular flouncing has not proven my statement incorrect about the source of the figures.

Just to be clear, it is possible to question a source whilst believing based on presumption that the figures are high. Obviously the confidence associated with said presumption will not be high.

I just find some of this stuff sooo hypocritical for some of you that hold such a high standard normally. Suppose it just comes down to whatever fits your narrative. Shame really.


You've not addressed a single point I made, you've ignored it and doubled-down on your appeal to authority fallacy.

How is posting and requesting evidence flouncing?

I've asked you numerous times to withdraw your statement, you've not done that and it's pretty disgraceful. To say others have narratives given your posting is unbelievable.

Your narrative has lead you to dismiss the independent analysis of: The UN, MSF, Unicef and the US government.

You need to take a step back and retract your statements, casting doubts of the number of deaths to suit your narrative is horrible.

SB
[Post edited 6 Dec 2023 18:36]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:38 - Dec 6 with 3294 viewsPhilTWTD

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:55 - Dec 6 by Rob88

That’s not independent verification. Despite SB’s spectacular flouncing has not proven my statement incorrect about the source of the figures.

Just to be clear, it is possible to question a source whilst believing based on presumption that the figures are high. Obviously the confidence associated with said presumption will not be high.

I just find some of this stuff sooo hypocritical for some of you that hold such a high standard normally. Suppose it just comes down to whatever fits your narrative. Shame really.


Think we've had enough of this nonsense as well.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:46 - Dec 6 with 3260 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 12:59 - Dec 6 by Herbivore

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67617920

Pretty grim read that and some of the language from high ranking Israeli government officials is rather startling, calling 2m Palestinians living in the West Bank "Nazis" as a means to dehumanize them and legitimise what is effectively state sponsored terrorism from Israeli settlers in the area.


This is the crux of it. The only way any person can behave like the terrorists did and like the Israeli government are, is to dehumanise those are committing these acts against. The worse it gets, the easier that is for each side to do too.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:44 - Dec 6 with 3130 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 18:32 - Dec 6 by Nthsuffolkblue

I can see why I didn't think you had answered the question: "if you don't think there should be any negotiation, how do you think peace should be brought about?"


I said no negotiation with Hamas. I said negotiate with Fatah when Hamas are defeated.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:50 - Dec 6 with 3121 viewsNthsuffolkblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:44 - Dec 6 by GlasgowBlue

I said no negotiation with Hamas. I said negotiate with Fatah when Hamas are defeated.


The issue is how you go about defeating Hamas.

I would favour negotiation with whoever can realistically bring an end to the atrocities from all involved. In an ideal world that then sees individuals responsible brought to justice but that is a long way from happening, realistically. Ultimately, it is about bringing about a better future for everyone (which is also a long way away at the moment).

Thanks for summarising your reply, though.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:53 - Dec 6 with 3090 viewsGlasgowBlue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 19:50 - Dec 6 by Nthsuffolkblue

The issue is how you go about defeating Hamas.

I would favour negotiation with whoever can realistically bring an end to the atrocities from all involved. In an ideal world that then sees individuals responsible brought to justice but that is a long way from happening, realistically. Ultimately, it is about bringing about a better future for everyone (which is also a long way away at the moment).

Thanks for summarising your reply, though.


And my view is that there can never be a better future, for either Palestinians or Israelis, so long as Hamas control Gaza.

I agree with you that we are a long way from a better future for anyone at the moment.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:43 - Dec 6 with 3022 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 17:55 - Dec 6 by Rob88

That’s not independent verification. Despite SB’s spectacular flouncing has not proven my statement incorrect about the source of the figures.

Just to be clear, it is possible to question a source whilst believing based on presumption that the figures are high. Obviously the confidence associated with said presumption will not be high.

I just find some of this stuff sooo hypocritical for some of you that hold such a high standard normally. Suppose it just comes down to whatever fits your narrative. Shame really.


It is very difficult to know what you are trying to prove, and using sarcastic comments like "sooo" or making subtle digs or personal accusations against people who take a different view to you (as you have done many times on this thread) doesn't help your case.

[Post edited 6 Dec 2023 20:50]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:20 - Dec 8 with 2751 viewsleitrimblue

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/07/young-britons-massacre-gaz

Found this quite interesting. At least some young Britons gonna be on right side of history
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A reminder that Netanyahu does not represent all Israelis on 16:36 - Dec 8 with 2633 viewsWeWereZombies

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-67592468

'Yael heads a charity called Road to Recovery, a group of Israeli volunteers who drive sick Palestinians - mostly children - from checkpoints in the occupied West Bank and Gaza to hospital appointments in Israel.

Or did.

The 1,000 or so volunteers can no longer take patients from Gaza, which is governed by Hamas. And four of them are dead - murdered as Palestinian gunmen stormed through their kibbutzim in southern Israel.

They include Vivian Silver, a renowned peace activist; Adi Dagan, who Yael describes as "funny" and always ready to step in and ferry patients at short notice in his big car; Tammy Suchman, a much-loved grandmother; and Eli Or-Gad, who loved talking about poetry.

Four other volunteers lost close family members on 7 October.'

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:59 - Dec 8 with 2609 viewsDJR

Presumably the US will veto tonight's Security Counsel resolution, even though it appears to have grave reservations about Israel's actions in the south.

A few snippets from the Secretary General's speech show just how desperate things are.

António Guterres warned that there was a serious risk of starvation and famine in Gaza, noting that half the people in northern Gaza and more than one third of displaced people in the south are “simply starving”.

Attacks from air, land and sea are “intense, continuous and widespread,” the UN secretary general told the security council.

Civilians in Gaza “are being told to move like human pinballs – ricocheting between ever-smaller slivers of the south, without any of the basics for survival,” he said.

"There is a high risk of the total collapse of the humanitarian support system in Gaza, which would have devastating consequences."

He said public order could completely break down in the Palestinian territory, increasing pressure for mass displacement across the border into Egypt. “I fear the consequences could be devastating for the security of the entire region,” he added.
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:51 - Dec 8 with 2512 viewsDJR

The medical charity Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has accused the UN security council of being “complicit in the ongoing slaughter” in Gaza over its “inaction” amid the humanitarian crisis in the territory.

The statement comes as the security council is expected to vote shortly on backing an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

Since the collapse of the temporary truce between Israel and Hamas, MSF said its team has witnessed “a resumption of indiscriminate killing and of forced displacement on a staggering scale and intensity”.

The MSF statement reads:

"To date, the inaction of the United Nations Security Council and vetoes from member states, particularly the United States, make them complicit in the ongoing slaughter; this inaction has given licence to the mass killing of men, women and children."

It said repeated assurances from both the US and Israel that the war is being waged on combatants alone “runs counter to what we see on the ground”. “On the contrary, this is a total war that doesn’t spare civilians,” it added. The statement continues:

"Today, the United Nations Security Council must demand an immediate and sustained ceasefire, and lift the siege. This responsibility falls to each member – history will judge the delay in ending this slaughter; basic humanity demands action."
[Post edited 8 Dec 2023 20:52]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:08 - Dec 8 with 2474 viewsDJR

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 16:59 - Dec 8 by DJR

Presumably the US will veto tonight's Security Counsel resolution, even though it appears to have grave reservations about Israel's actions in the south.

A few snippets from the Secretary General's speech show just how desperate things are.

António Guterres warned that there was a serious risk of starvation and famine in Gaza, noting that half the people in northern Gaza and more than one third of displaced people in the south are “simply starving”.

Attacks from air, land and sea are “intense, continuous and widespread,” the UN secretary general told the security council.

Civilians in Gaza “are being told to move like human pinballs – ricocheting between ever-smaller slivers of the south, without any of the basics for survival,” he said.

"There is a high risk of the total collapse of the humanitarian support system in Gaza, which would have devastating consequences."

He said public order could completely break down in the Palestinian territory, increasing pressure for mass displacement across the border into Egypt. “I fear the consequences could be devastating for the security of the entire region,” he added.


The US has just vetoed the resolution despite the supposed grave reservations I mentioned.

And those reservations clearly don't affect the supply of arms.

https://www.reuters.com/world/state-dept-asks-congress-approve-sale-israeli-tank

France to its credit voted for the resolution, but the UK took the spineless option of abstaining.

The representative for France said his country voted in favour of the resolution because the country is "very concerned" about what he calls an unfolding "humanitarian tragedy" in Gaza.

"We do not see any contradiction in the fight against terrorism and the protection of civilians in strict respect for international humanitarian law," he said.
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Is a ceasefire inevitable ? on 00:10 - Dec 9 with 2380 viewsWeWereZombies

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 21:08 - Dec 8 by DJR

The US has just vetoed the resolution despite the supposed grave reservations I mentioned.

And those reservations clearly don't affect the supply of arms.

https://www.reuters.com/world/state-dept-asks-congress-approve-sale-israeli-tank

France to its credit voted for the resolution, but the UK took the spineless option of abstaining.

The representative for France said his country voted in favour of the resolution because the country is "very concerned" about what he calls an unfolding "humanitarian tragedy" in Gaza.

"We do not see any contradiction in the fight against terrorism and the protection of civilians in strict respect for international humanitarian law," he said.


Interesting commentary on this from Jeremy Bowen:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67664804

'At the UN, the Americans duly vetoed this resolution calling for a ceasefire. For those concerned about the significant loss of life, that does sound a bit hollow - the Americans claim the Israelis are saying they will stick to the rules of war and avoid unnecessary civilian deaths. But, they say, there is a gap between what Israel says and what it does.

I think the strategy behind the secretary general's decision to bring a vote - which he knew would probably get vetoed - was to hurry up the inevitable moment when the Americans will say to Israel: "Enough is enough, you've had enough time and killed enough people and it's time for a ceasefire."'

Edit: Yet again I forgot to change the title of this thread
[Post edited 9 Dec 2023 0:11]

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 08:46 - Dec 9 with 2264 viewsNthQldITFC

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 20:51 - Dec 8 by DJR

The medical charity Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) has accused the UN security council of being “complicit in the ongoing slaughter” in Gaza over its “inaction” amid the humanitarian crisis in the territory.

The statement comes as the security council is expected to vote shortly on backing an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.

Since the collapse of the temporary truce between Israel and Hamas, MSF said its team has witnessed “a resumption of indiscriminate killing and of forced displacement on a staggering scale and intensity”.

The MSF statement reads:

"To date, the inaction of the United Nations Security Council and vetoes from member states, particularly the United States, make them complicit in the ongoing slaughter; this inaction has given licence to the mass killing of men, women and children."

It said repeated assurances from both the US and Israel that the war is being waged on combatants alone “runs counter to what we see on the ground”. “On the contrary, this is a total war that doesn’t spare civilians,” it added. The statement continues:

"Today, the United Nations Security Council must demand an immediate and sustained ceasefire, and lift the siege. This responsibility falls to each member – history will judge the delay in ending this slaughter; basic humanity demands action."
[Post edited 8 Dec 2023 20:52]


'history will judge...', if we ever get out of this spiral of populism, war and ethnic cleansing in an overheating and overpopulated world with an overexploited, dying biosphere where, still, the only thing that seems to matter is wealth accumulation.

Perhaps the calculation at even the bastions of the democratic world is "we won't" so let's just go ahead, and forget about justice.

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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:15 - Dec 9 with 2240 viewsDJR

"We hope the humanitarian organisations can get their act together and provide the support that is required."

I listened to this on the World at One yesterday and thought the Israeli spokesman came across as pretty callous when it came to the plight of civilians.

[Post edited 9 Dec 2023 9:22]
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 14:37 - Dec 9 with 2136 viewspointofblue

How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 09:15 - Dec 9 by DJR

"We hope the humanitarian organisations can get their act together and provide the support that is required."

I listened to this on the World at One yesterday and thought the Israeli spokesman came across as pretty callous when it came to the plight of civilians.

[Post edited 9 Dec 2023 9:22]


Two excellent articles in The Guardian, one from yesterday and one from today.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/08/israel-bombardment-hamas-g
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/09/mass-murder-gaza-world-wat

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