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How many Palestinians and Israelis must die before this stops? on 08:18 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies
I don't know whether this is uncalled for or not but I can't help pointing out that we need to learn lessons from history. There may well be a Palestinian Mandela but if so I expect the hard right in Israel have her locked up.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:46]
The stateswoman/man of sufficient stature & capability who'd command the respect of both sides + their supporter countries isn't very likely to actually come from either side or state I'd say!
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:44 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue
i think 7th october makes it more than just 'hype'.
Firstly, I am distinguishing between the messages put out for appeasement of the more militant elements in a populace, perhaps as much to negate any action they may take against their rulers as to stoke up hatred of Israel, and the pragmatic course of action that politicians are likely to follow.
Secondly, the Hamas atrocity was obviously appalling and an incursion into Israel's territory. But not a deep incursion, it was a very long way from 'striking Israel off the map.'
Once again I find myself having to almost implore you to give reasonable thoughts to the issues and wider implications of what I am posting. I am not asking for agreement (I get a whole load of things wrong all the time...but not everything) just a considered response.
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:47 - Nov 3 by Zapers
It's hardly Israel's fault that Hamas use their citizens as human shields.
Maybe a little more condemnation of Hamas might not go amiss.
Everyone with even the most basic sense of humanity has condemned Hamas and the massacre of innocent civilians.
But we can’t take that universal condemnation and make the Palestinian civilian population collectively responsible. Explicitly or implicitly makes no difference if the result is they are in fact paying the price with their lives.
The reaction to massacred children isn’t to kill 100 times more Palestinian children, which is where we are now. Shall we make it 1000 times more to really drive the point home how unacceptable Hamas and their atrocities were?
A little more recognition of the civilian victims and human cost on both sides is what’s really missing.
Pronouns: He/Him
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:35 - Nov 3 with 3987 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:31 - Nov 3 by Blueschev
Zionism is a far more complex and multifaceted ideology than that. If it was that simple it would no longer exist, as there is a Jewish state.
i think the language we use is important, zionism has been used as a catch-all phrase by anti-semites (on the right and left) to beat jews. we shouldn't fall into that trap.
zionism meant that the jewish people should have a state, so now it means a jewish state should continue.
what netanyahu is doing is disproportionate and beyond zionism, it needs a new name (expansionist zionism? ultrazionism?) to divorce the extremists from the jewish people as a whole.
it's the same as not calling hamas, al qaeda, daesh as muslim terrorists. they're just terrorists
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:28 - Nov 3 by Blueschev
Oh I agree it would be horrendous. The situation as it stands is horrendous. But there's a reason Israel's adversaries don't attack them, and that's because they know full well they cannot compete with them militarily.
They also don't want to because they largely don't care about the plight of the Palestinians, and the continued occupation works as a distraction tactic for the anger of their own populations. Without their bogeyman (Israel), their populations might ask why they themselves are being oppressed.
It isn't just Israel's military advantage, it is also the likely involvement of other powers who would intervene on behalf of Israel. And the negative effect that would have on oil revenues if trade sanctions were implemented.
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:23 - Nov 3 by DJR
I would certainly condemn the action of Hamas on 7 October, and the continued holding of hostages, but that doesn't mean one can't feel sympathy for the plight of ordinary Palestinians.
Maybe Zapers was referring to the big wide world outside the more nuanced state of TWTD, because from what I've seen on msm (BBC QT last night eg) and far worse, sm, there are millions out there who appear to have forgotten all about the Hamas atrocities of 7th Oct & are exclusively focussed on Israel's actions (which are reprehensible of course re Gaza) - with a consequent spillover of anger & antisemitic attacks on Jewish people in completely different parts of the planet.
Hence my reference earlier to simplistic support of the supposed 'underdog', with little or no understanding of history.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:28 - Nov 3 by Blueschev
Oh I agree it would be horrendous. The situation as it stands is horrendous. But there's a reason Israel's adversaries don't attack them, and that's because they know full well they cannot compete with them militarily.
They also don't want to because they largely don't care about the plight of the Palestinians, and the continued occupation works as a distraction tactic for the anger of their own populations. Without their bogeyman (Israel), their populations might ask why they themselves are being oppressed.
On that last para, II read an interesting article the other day making a similar point about other countries using Israel as a bogeyman, but came to a slightly different conclusion. ...That maybe an Arab-spring 2.0 style anger / possible uprising may force such countries into taking action against Israel as way of appeasing / placating their own populations.
No idea how valid a point that may be, but reading your post reminded me.
Has anyone ever looked at their own postings for last day or so? Oh my... so sorry. Was Ullaa
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:29 - Nov 3 by Ryorry
The stateswoman/man of sufficient stature & capability who'd command the respect of both sides + their supporter countries isn't very likely to actually come from either side or state I'd say!
it needs multiple people on both sides and beyond.
mandela didn't change the system through armed conflict, it was when he became a man of peace and aligned with the likes of archbishop tutu that things started shifting (helped massively by concerted pressure from outside countries (of which the uk were one of the least helpful))
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:40 - Nov 3 by positivity
it needs multiple people on both sides and beyond.
mandela didn't change the system through armed conflict, it was when he became a man of peace and aligned with the likes of archbishop tutu that things started shifting (helped massively by concerted pressure from outside countries (of which the uk were one of the least helpful))
Of course. But it does need someone of Mandela's (eventual) stature - and dare I say charisma? - at the centre, who can influence and draw others in.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:40 - Nov 3 by giant_stow
On that last para, II read an interesting article the other day making a similar point about other countries using Israel as a bogeyman, but came to a slightly different conclusion. ...That maybe an Arab-spring 2.0 style anger / possible uprising may force such countries into taking action against Israel as way of appeasing / placating their own populations.
No idea how valid a point that may be, but reading your post reminded me.
I read that too, which is why Saudi Arabia stepped away from completing a few which would improve relations with Israel. The Saudi regime (with it’s own conflict with Yemen, and internal human rights violations) didn’t want to be seen as condoning Israel’s attacks on Palestinian civilians and risk Saudi citizens protesting/uprising as a result.
This led to suspicions regarding the timing of the Hamas attacks, given that it would be in Iran’s interest to prevent any Saudi/Israel relations (in light of each other’s proxy conflict for regional dominance/religious ideology).
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How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:59 - Nov 3 with 3867 views
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:40 - Nov 3 by giant_stow
On that last para, II read an interesting article the other day making a similar point about other countries using Israel as a bogeyman, but came to a slightly different conclusion. ...That maybe an Arab-spring 2.0 style anger / possible uprising may force such countries into taking action against Israel as way of appeasing / placating their own populations.
No idea how valid a point that may be, but reading your post reminded me.
Yes, very difficult to know, but some of the reaction by the Arab states may just be designed to assuage public opinion whilst not really affecting their general view that they have much in common with Israel, especially when it comes to Iran.
In addition, the current Egypt government is hostile to Hamas, an offshoot of the Muslim Brotherhood, which may explain its actions in relation to Gaza, which seem pretty callous.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 11:25]
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 11:15 - Nov 3 with 3823 views
How many Israeli and Palestinian lives have to be lost? on 10:33 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies
Firstly, I am distinguishing between the messages put out for appeasement of the more militant elements in a populace, perhaps as much to negate any action they may take against their rulers as to stoke up hatred of Israel, and the pragmatic course of action that politicians are likely to follow.
Secondly, the Hamas atrocity was obviously appalling and an incursion into Israel's territory. But not a deep incursion, it was a very long way from 'striking Israel off the map.'
Once again I find myself having to almost implore you to give reasonable thoughts to the issues and wider implications of what I am posting. I am not asking for agreement (I get a whole load of things wrong all the time...but not everything) just a considered response.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:28]
"But not a deep incursion, it was a very long way from 'striking Israel off the map.'" ??
what we were discussing was the intent of hamas - and how 7/10 was a demonstration of that intent. hamas' stated purpose is to annihilate israel (that's it's purpose, not hype or words for appeasement). and they are funded and armed by iran for that purpose. 7/10 was the worst that they could achieve but their intent doesn't stop there.
i'm giving you a considered response but i find your style of discussion very slippery with a tendency not to respond to the point made (but to something else vaguely involving the same words as the point made).
And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 11:19 - Nov 3 with 3806 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:20 - Nov 3 by GlasgowBlue
To put into context the scale of the 7/10 massacres as a percentage of Israel's population. If the same thing had happened in the UK, we would have seen 10,000 British people killed in a single day.
As this is a thread about Palestinians, I suppose it's only fair to point out that the equivalent for deaths in Gaza would be (according to my calculations) 262,000 British people killed.
Admittedly, that is over a three week period but that along with the deaths of Israelis shows just how tragic things are.
I might add that I fully understand the impact on people in Israel and their reaction, and am not convinced that the US or UK would have reacted any differently had they been in Israel's position.
EDIT: Perhaps another strange aspect of this war is that we are witnessing the effect on both sides, and this may be influencing public opinion because the Palestinian plight is an ongoing one. Maybe this is because we are not ourselves at war, because in such circumstances there tends to be a blackout of news from the other side, meaning, for example, that we can turn a blind eye to an estimated 650,000 excess deaths during the first three years of the Iraq war.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 11:32]
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How many Palestinian and Israeli lives have to be lost? on 11:21 - Nov 3 with 3789 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 10:40 - Nov 3 by positivity
it needs multiple people on both sides and beyond.
mandela didn't change the system through armed conflict, it was when he became a man of peace and aligned with the likes of archbishop tutu that things started shifting (helped massively by concerted pressure from outside countries (of which the uk were one of the least helpful))
The removal of the apartheid regime in South Africa I see as a bit more complicated than that. It is about ten years now since I read Anthony Sampson's biography of Mandela (the great man did not dismiss the work but he was also careful not to give authorisation to the work of an Englishman whose only other biography was of Macmillan) but the various parties on either side of that conflict used a variety of means. The ANC, like Sinn Fein, had an armed wing (uMkhonto we Sizwe) founded by Mandela as a response to the Sharpeville massacre. They were not disbanded until 1993. The opponents of apartheid spanned from free market capitalists through to hard line communists, perhaps Plaid Cymru are a modern day equivalent. Apart from the armed struggle there was passive resistance too, firstly through demonstrations but moreoften as the struggle wore on through 'stay away' days - when the oppressors had to do their housework for themselves they knew suffering...
The upholders of the status quo, some knew what they were doing was wrong, many considered it just a matter of time before their power fell, and the succession from Vorster through Viljoen (no, not that one) to Botha was an ever decreasing circle. De Klerk has to be given some credit for holding the referendum and loosening restrictions on anti-apartheid organisations and activities (not that he didn't have skeletons in the closet as far as encouraging inter tribal violence though.) That's some of it but it is a very long, fascinating all the same, book. As you say, peace and justice will take a lot of work from any people from all sides. And no one will get exactly what they want, but let's hope they get enough to have a decent life, those that survive.
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 11:15 - Nov 3 by lowhouseblue
"But not a deep incursion, it was a very long way from 'striking Israel off the map.'" ??
what we were discussing was the intent of hamas - and how 7/10 was a demonstration of that intent. hamas' stated purpose is to annihilate israel (that's it's purpose, not hype or words for appeasement). and they are funded and armed by iran for that purpose. 7/10 was the worst that they could achieve but their intent doesn't stop there.
i'm giving you a considered response but i find your style of discussion very slippery with a tendency not to respond to the point made (but to something else vaguely involving the same words as the point made).
And there you go again. I accept your points but the thrust of my argument remains. No point in adding any more.
How many Palestinian lives is sufficient? on 10:49 - Nov 3 by SuperKieranMcKenna
I read that too, which is why Saudi Arabia stepped away from completing a few which would improve relations with Israel. The Saudi regime (with it’s own conflict with Yemen, and internal human rights violations) didn’t want to be seen as condoning Israel’s attacks on Palestinian civilians and risk Saudi citizens protesting/uprising as a result.
This led to suspicions regarding the timing of the Hamas attacks, given that it would be in Iran’s interest to prevent any Saudi/Israel relations (in light of each other’s proxy conflict for regional dominance/religious ideology).
Just to underline how complicated and dangerous things are becoming, the Houthis have managed to launch missiles at Israel:
“ The Houthis' slogan is "Death to America, Death to Israel, curse the Jews and victory to Islam"
Sound like a charming bunch.
That’s why it’s a little bit of a simplistic take to just say “America needs to stop Israel”. There’s a lot of regional factions at play here. I suspect Iran (via its proxies) are attempting to draw Israel into attacking a nearby state (from where the proxy attacks are being launched) and triggering a wider regional war. Scary stuff and restraint is needed.
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 12:27 - Nov 3 with 3647 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 09:44 - Nov 3 by eireblue
So carry on as before on the failed path, but further isolate the Palestinians with bigger walls and barriers, and leave them to be control by a stronger Hamas, nice one.
Any other good ideas?
You do realise that the fence was being guarded by technology (cameras, sensors and robot operated machines guns) I take it. So I'm just saying that if they are going to keep them in an open air prison they should do it properly!
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
How many Israeli and Palestinian lives is sufficient ? on 09:07 - Nov 3 by WeWereZombies
It doesn't map completely but the Provisional IRA got plenty of funding from the United States community of Irish emigrants (recent and centuries old) plus materiel from Czechoslovakia and Algeria. The UVF had a lower profile as far as 'money in' goes but I think fundamental Protestant organisations in Germany (and no doubt further afield were involved.) And, as a London Irish friend startlingly said to me when playing Devil's Advocate about the rights of Russians living in Ukraine 'English, Scots, they're all the same, we want the British out of Ireland'. The history is different, a modern state did not have to be carved out for either Great Britain or the island of Ireland but, for the victims, the effects of terrorism (and Shock and Awe for that matter) are starkly similar.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 20:39]
Growing up in the 80s I remember my childish beliefs that the IRA wanted Britain out of Ireland and from the news that they might bomb pubs where soldiers drank, launch mortars at politicians and shoot people in the knees by night. I never realised they might have paraglided into our summer 5 a side tournament and raped and murdered the entire crowd. Ignorance is bliss eh?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 13:16 - Nov 3 with 3504 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 12:27 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave
You do realise that the fence was being guarded by technology (cameras, sensors and robot operated machines guns) I take it. So I'm just saying that if they are going to keep them in an open air prison they should do it properly!
Let me remind you what the question was. Anyone is free to help you out.
So, on 7th October, Hamas did what they wanted to do, and possibly more.
They were in a stronger position, than they were on the 6th of October
On the 8th of October, what would you do to stop Hamas executing another attack, in the future?
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How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 13:23 - Nov 3 with 3464 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 13:16 - Nov 3 by eireblue
Let me remind you what the question was. Anyone is free to help you out.
So, on 7th October, Hamas did what they wanted to do, and possibly more.
They were in a stronger position, than they were on the 6th of October
On the 8th of October, what would you do to stop Hamas executing another attack, in the future?
Exactly, so not make the same mistakes as on the 7th. is my point. What you didn't do was ask for a solution to the entire predicament. What I wouldn't do is what has been done with all it's implications for continued hatred and deaths of innocents which will likely include the hostages in those tunnels the IDF claims to be destroying.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 14:05]
"They break our legs and tell us to be grateful when they offer us crutches."
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 13:23 - Nov 3 by BanksterDebtSlave
Exactly, so not make the same mistakes as on the 7th. is my point. What you didn't do was ask for a solution to the entire predicament. What I wouldn't do is what has been done with all it's implications for continued hatred and deaths of innocents which will likely include the hostages in those tunnels the IDF claims to be destroying.
[Post edited 3 Nov 2023 14:05]
Well done on not answering the question again.
And telling us all, once again, what you wouldn’t do, and what Israel shouldn’t do, as you have done on numerous threads
So back to the actual question.
How do you stop Hamas from launching more attacks from an even stronger position than they were in on the 6th of October.
You wake up on the morning of the 8th and…..
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How many Palestinian or Israeli lives are sufficient? on 16:16 - Nov 3 with 3312 views
How many Palastinian lives is sufficiant? on 12:54 - Nov 3 by Buhrer
Growing up in the 80s I remember my childish beliefs that the IRA wanted Britain out of Ireland and from the news that they might bomb pubs where soldiers drank, launch mortars at politicians and shoot people in the knees by night. I never realised they might have paraglided into our summer 5 a side tournament and raped and murdered the entire crowd. Ignorance is bliss eh?
It's a reasonable response if you want to draw up some scale of terrorist activity where drilling through someone's kneecaps with a Black and Decker is acceptable but stabbing a baby is not. You could scale it all the way back to something like the French legal justification of crime passionnel and let all terrorists of after the event by accepting their actions in the light of injustices against a group of people of whom they are one. In my opinion that makes a mockery of the rule of law. If a polity has been damaged by the actions of an individual then it is only right that the individual must suffer whatever hard treatment the ruling body judges applicable.
By the way, the entire crowd were not raped and murdered, some were just taken hostage. But I take your point even if your analogy is a bit frayed at the edges.
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