| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:46 - Nov 21 with 3700 views | itfcjoe |
It has to be all or nothing, there can't be a level where it is acceptable and then a point where it becomes unacceptable for transwomen to play in women's sport because that just doesn't work. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:51 - Nov 21 with 3658 views | lowhouseblue |
there's a very simple test. in sports where trans women get selected for elite men's teams biology clearly doesn't matter and there doesn't need to be any restrictions. otherwise there need to be restrictions to ensure fair and safe competition. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:52 - Nov 21 with 3651 views | charlie1 |
Perhaps the FA should consider separating professional football into weight categories, like boxing, so you would have under 70kg, 70-80, 80-90 etc.
Would be much fairer. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:53 - Nov 21 with 3643 views | giant_stow |
Weird how the accident came about and not sure how you can guard against it at any level or any gender.. Sometimes even the smallest of kids just hit the ball perfectly and it rockets - isn't that part of the game? |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:56 - Nov 21 with 3595 views | DanTheMan |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:53 - Nov 21 by giant_stow |
Weird how the accident came about and not sure how you can guard against it at any level or any gender.. Sometimes even the smallest of kids just hit the ball perfectly and it rockets - isn't that part of the game? |
That was my reaction, given what information is in the story, I'm not sure that the player being trans has anything to do with what happened. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:58 - Nov 21 with 3551 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:46 - Nov 21 by itfcjoe |
It has to be all or nothing, there can't be a level where it is acceptable and then a point where it becomes unacceptable for transwomen to play in women's sport because that just doesn't work. |
That’s silly.
Of course, trans people can and should be able to play sport at a lower level — although it does get more complicated at the top end where livelihoods are at stake. No need for absolutism just some of that fabled common sense we always hear about.
Sport and particularly at the lower, more participatory level is bigger than this. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:00 - Nov 21 with 3538 views | J2BLUE |
Things like this are incredibly difficult. It's usually the two extreme sides shouting at each other while everyone else gets ignored. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:05 - Nov 21 with 3486 views | charlie1 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:56 - Nov 21 by DanTheMan |
That was my reaction, given what information is in the story, I'm not sure that the player being trans has anything to do with what happened. |
If football was an injury-free sport, then that might be a factor, but it clearly isn’t.
As kids, we all played in and against an U’11 football team who had a player with a full beard and was likely married with three kids.
Disparity in skill, size and strength has always been part and parcel of sport, and the best coaches and teams work out a way to overcome it.
There is no transgender World, Olympic or Commonwealth Champion in any sport.
The issue isn’t one of fairness, it’s one of ignorance and bigotry.
Edit. (I’m agreeing with you DanTheMan, but then went off on a bit of a tangent. Didn’t want you thinking the rest was aimed at you when it’s not) [Post edited 21 Nov 2023 12:09]
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:18 - Nov 21 with 3371 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:05 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
If football was an injury-free sport, then that might be a factor, but it clearly isn’t.
As kids, we all played in and against an U’11 football team who had a player with a full beard and was likely married with three kids.
Disparity in skill, size and strength has always been part and parcel of sport, and the best coaches and teams work out a way to overcome it.
There is no transgender World, Olympic or Commonwealth Champion in any sport.
The issue isn’t one of fairness, it’s one of ignorance and bigotry.
Edit. (I’m agreeing with you DanTheMan, but then went off on a bit of a tangent. Didn’t want you thinking the rest was aimed at you when it’s not) [Post edited 21 Nov 2023 12:09]
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It's very cheap and easy to throw out 'bigotry'. It's clearly a much more nuanced situation than being down to ignorance, quite the contrary really given the level of understanding and thought around the future and how a system is created that's inclusive for everyone. Hence why sports like football have a mens and womens distinction already. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:26 - Nov 21 with 3286 views | giant_stow |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:18 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
It's very cheap and easy to throw out 'bigotry'. It's clearly a much more nuanced situation than being down to ignorance, quite the contrary really given the level of understanding and thought around the future and how a system is created that's inclusive for everyone. Hence why sports like football have a mens and womens distinction already. |
At the risk of sounding like a simpleton, there seems to be an obvious solution here. If the real unstated problem is that Francesca is relatively too big or strong in comparison to the other players, can't she just agree not to throw her weight about / hold back on big tackles / no shoulder badges / 100% hard shots?
Seems to me many of these problems can be fixed on an individual level if there's willing and good faith from all parties. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:28 - Nov 21 with 3260 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:26 - Nov 21 by giant_stow |
At the risk of sounding like a simpleton, there seems to be an obvious solution here. If the real unstated problem is that Francesca is relatively too big or strong in comparison to the other players, can't she just agree not to throw her weight about / hold back on big tackles / no shoulder badges / 100% hard shots?
Seems to me many of these problems can be fixed on an individual level if there's willing and good faith from all parties. |
Arguably the worst solution I've ever heard tbh mate | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:31 - Nov 21 with 3238 views | charlie1 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:18 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
It's very cheap and easy to throw out 'bigotry'. It's clearly a much more nuanced situation than being down to ignorance, quite the contrary really given the level of understanding and thought around the future and how a system is created that's inclusive for everyone. Hence why sports like football have a mens and womens distinction already. |
And in this case the player herself must have met the criteria to play in the woman’s comp to be able to take the field in the first place.
So why does this injury in a contact sport (and from a ball hitting a player, not as a result of a tackle or any direct contact) warrant any media attention whatsoever? | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:32 - Nov 21 with 3228 views | giant_stow |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:28 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
Arguably the worst solution I've ever heard tbh mate |
Fair enough! against sporting competition / no one should hold back?
I just don't see how you resolve this if other teams won't play against her. Trans-only leagues seem like a non-starter / males leagues completely out. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:32 - Nov 21 with 3236 views | LankHenners |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:00 - Nov 21 by J2BLUE |
Things like this are incredibly difficult. It's usually the two extreme sides shouting at each other while everyone else gets ignored. |
Don't think it's really helpful to say transgender people wanting the basic right to live their life without feeling prejudiced are holding an 'extreme' position or are 'shouting' at anyone.
Not to say there isn't a nuanced issue here, and I think transgender people, to generalise, are more happy to have those discussions than the general media would have you know. Think that's fairly evident in this story by the woman in question opting to step away from playing until there's a resolution in order to take pressure off her team.
My problem with stories like this really is that it's one slightly odd case (seems like a bit of a freak accident that could happen in any scenario playing sport) that will now get used as evidence of transpeople shouldn't be allowed to do this, should have to jump through more hoops for that etc. which I don't think is really fair. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:33 - Nov 21 with 3224 views | itfcjoe |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:05 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
If football was an injury-free sport, then that might be a factor, but it clearly isn’t.
As kids, we all played in and against an U’11 football team who had a player with a full beard and was likely married with three kids.
Disparity in skill, size and strength has always been part and parcel of sport, and the best coaches and teams work out a way to overcome it.
There is no transgender World, Olympic or Commonwealth Champion in any sport.
The issue isn’t one of fairness, it’s one of ignorance and bigotry.
Edit. (I’m agreeing with you DanTheMan, but then went off on a bit of a tangent. Didn’t want you thinking the rest was aimed at you when it’s not) [Post edited 21 Nov 2023 12:09]
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"Disparity in skill, size and strength has always been part and parcel of sport, and the best coaches and teams work out a way to overcome it."
Splitting ports by sex has always been part and parcel of sport as well.
"There is no transgender World, Olympic or Commonwealth Champion in any sport."
At what point does this fail though, do we have to wait for it to happen before people realise it is unfair? | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:33 - Nov 21 with 3219 views | giant_stow |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:31 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
And in this case the player herself must have met the criteria to play in the woman’s comp to be able to take the field in the first place.
So why does this injury in a contact sport (and from a ball hitting a player, not as a result of a tackle or any direct contact) warrant any media attention whatsoever? |
Fair comments, except the other other teams are saying no, so it needs some resolution. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:40 - Nov 21 with 3165 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:31 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
And in this case the player herself must have met the criteria to play in the woman’s comp to be able to take the field in the first place.
So why does this injury in a contact sport (and from a ball hitting a player, not as a result of a tackle or any direct contact) warrant any media attention whatsoever? |
I'm not suggesting it does. As others have said, on the face of this article specifically it's not sufficient substance to dictate the future of trans involvement in women's sport. Mark Venus ended Alex Notman's career with a free kick, I didn't hear people then claiming it unfair that he could tw@t a ball so hard.
The work of the FA, UEFA, FIFA is much deeper than that though, this situation specifically is a bit of red herring. There is a wider conversation and thought required though, which will continue to evolve, particularly in sports where there's a distinct biological and physical advantage.
There's a reason why men and women have distinct categories within physical sports like football and rugby, or weightlifting for example. It's in the interests of inclusion and is a necessity. Without such parameters I wouldn't have thought there would be a single female football in England's football league. Unlike management, where a woman has already caretaker managed a mens football league side, and I'm sure that's something we'll see more of.
Trans women competing in womens sport is a complex area, and one that needs a lot of thought with regards to the most appropriate steps forward to ensure a fair, safe and competitive landscape. It's far from ignorant, it has to be considered. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:43 - Nov 21 with 3126 views | charlie1 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:33 - Nov 21 by giant_stow |
Fair comments, except the other other teams are saying no, so it needs some resolution. |
That’s their choice, but doesn’t alter the fact the player was legitimately entitled to play under the league rules set out at the time.
They don’t get to choose the height, weight, build of the players lining up for the opposition.
Would be like Ipswich refusing to play against Grant Holt because he tipped the scales at least 20 stone at the time. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:47 - Nov 21 with 3079 views | E_I_E_I_E_I_O |
It should hardly be a dilemma.
If you are born female you can play for woman's team.
If you are born male you can play men's football.
Pretty simple. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:47 - Nov 21 with 3065 views | giant_stow |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:43 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
That’s their choice, but doesn’t alter the fact the player was legitimately entitled to play under the league rules set out at the time.
They don’t get to choose the height, weight, build of the players lining up for the opposition.
Would be like Ipswich refusing to play against Grant Holt because he tipped the scales at least 20 stone at the time. |
I have no idea how solid this league is, but in the case of my over 45s, there's only 14 -ish teams, so you need buy in from all participants for it function properly, or it all falls apart. For instance, it seems like not being able to field a side is a proper no-no, for fear of putting the other side out. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:49 - Nov 21 with 3046 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:32 - Nov 21 by giant_stow |
Fair enough! against sporting competition / no one should hold back?
I just don't see how you resolve this if other teams won't play against her. Trans-only leagues seem like a non-starter / males leagues completely out. |
Well it just isn't a future proofed solution to be putting the onus on a player to reign back. It's too subjective, indeterminable, entirely open for abuse and also not fair on the players in question. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:50 - Nov 21 with 3045 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:43 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
That’s their choice, but doesn’t alter the fact the player was legitimately entitled to play under the league rules set out at the time.
They don’t get to choose the height, weight, build of the players lining up for the opposition.
Would be like Ipswich refusing to play against Grant Holt because he tipped the scales at least 20 stone at the time. |
Genuine question then, and I'm not looking to sensationalise what you're saying ; would you be in favour of getting rid of mens and womens football altogether, and it just becoming a free for all survival of the fittest? | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:51 - Nov 21 with 3040 views | homer_123 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:31 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
And in this case the player herself must have met the criteria to play in the woman’s comp to be able to take the field in the first place.
So why does this injury in a contact sport (and from a ball hitting a player, not as a result of a tackle or any direct contact) warrant any media attention whatsoever? |
You only need to look at Grassroots kids football to see a similar situation.
Our Girls teams over the years, when travelling to London, for example, have often come against physically bigger players, I mean a huge difference in some instances.
Especially when you have girls playing up a year, for example there can be almost 2 years between them and the physical difference at age can be enormous.
So, given the person in question (in the article) has the right to play - the fact an injury occurred is really neither here nor there. [Post edited 21 Nov 2023 12:54]
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:53 - Nov 21 with 3027 views | homer_123 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:50 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
Genuine question then, and I'm not looking to sensationalise what you're saying ; would you be in favour of getting rid of mens and womens football altogether, and it just becoming a free for all survival of the fittest? |
Fair question, I don't know the answer but it feels like no.
However, for this incident, the fact an injury has occurred is irrelevant, surely? I mean, it looks like the teams were happy to play up until that point? How many matches had already been played with no issue.
If teams weren't happy - then they should have said so before the season began. To leave it until now is odd.
Not saying they are right or wrong to withdraw. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:53 - Nov 21 with 3024 views | charlie1 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:50 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
Genuine question then, and I'm not looking to sensationalise what you're saying ; would you be in favour of getting rid of mens and womens football altogether, and it just becoming a free for all survival of the fittest? |
When I’ve clearly stated that the player in question must have met the criteria to play in a women’s football league, why would you think I am supportive of some kind of free for all? | | | |
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