| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:55 - Nov 21 with 2279 views | giant_stow |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:49 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
Well it just isn't a future proofed solution to be putting the onus on a player to reign back. It's too subjective, indeterminable, entirely open for abuse and also not fair on the players in question. |
Fair dos |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:55 - Nov 21 with 2266 views | FrimleyBlue |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:53 - Nov 21 by giant_stow |
Weird how the accident came about and not sure how you can guard against it at any level or any gender.. Sometimes even the smallest of kids just hit the ball perfectly and it rockets - isn't that part of the game? |
Isn't this the one where defender tried to block shot.. bur ended up breaking her knee.. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:56 - Nov 21 with 2263 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:53 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
When I’ve clearly stated that the player in question must have met the criteria to play in a women’s football league, why would you think I am supportive of some kind of free for all? |
Of course they met the rules, hence they were playing. I thought that was a given.
The question is whether the rules are appropriate and fair, or if they need to change. That's the premise of the article and the work going on within football's governing bodies. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:59 - Nov 21 with 2246 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:53 - Nov 21 by homer_123 |
Fair question, I don't know the answer but it feels like no.
However, for this incident, the fact an injury has occurred is irrelevant, surely? I mean, it looks like the teams were happy to play up until that point? How many matches had already been played with no issue.
If teams weren't happy - then they should have said so before the season began. To leave it until now is odd.
Not saying they are right or wrong to withdraw. |
I agree about this incident btw, it could happen between men, women, trans, anyone combination of the above. I don't believe it's sufficient substance to dictate the future of trans involvement in womens sport.
More broadly I do think it's a sticky area to be honest, there's been examples of trans weightlifters who have a clear biological advantage over the rest of the field clearing up at competitions. I'm not sure what the answer is, but it needs due consideration. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:01 - Nov 21 with 2247 views | RobTheMonk |
There's definitely something to be talked about, but to focus on this injury doesn't make sense. I've torn an ankle ligament from blocking a shot. John Arne Riise pretty much ended Alan Smith's career with a free kick.
I've played in mixed football before with an ex semi-pro woman. Most of us were cautious with the tackles but a few played as normal and she'd get battered by them and ended up stopping playing because it was too physical.
To go completely off the rails, lets say Tyson Fury decides to transition to a female. He's probably going to kill someone if he fought as a woman against women...
If the entire England rugby team decided to transition, they're going to dominate any female team then come up against...
Yes the above are never going to happen, but there is a bigger picture and I do think there's an issue with the anatomical benefits to certain sports that the male physique has that transitioning doesn't change. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:03 - Nov 21 with 2239 views | homer_123 |
The FA have a real conundrum on their hands with this.
Some examples, the now defunct RTCs for girls football - have actively encouraged girls to play boys football to help with their development, in a lot of instances it was a pre-requisite. The new PGAs are also following suit in this area.
In addition Girls only teams can play in a boys league a year down, so if you are an U15s girls team, you can play in a boys league at U14 for example.
Both of these situations put girls in a situation where the likelihood of coming across players significantly larger, strongly, faster etc. is greatly increased and therefore the likelihood of injury is far greater. Yet, girls who have been fast tracked through RTC and now the PGA are encouraged to do this.
So, to the articles point: ...based on the "safety of the applicant and other players" and "fair competition". The FA are not really being consistent. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:05 - Nov 21 with 2229 views | glasso |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:46 - Nov 21 by itfcjoe |
It has to be all or nothing, there can't be a level where it is acceptable and then a point where it becomes unacceptable for transwomen to play in women's sport because that just doesn't work. |
There already is a 'level,' though, isn't there? Can't girls play in boys' football when they're young but it gets phased out as they get older?
Surely the litmus test is if there's a male and female version of the sport, then the authorities have determined there's a biological reason for the two to be separated?
I can't really think of a sport where that isn't the case, but I'm sure there are some? |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:11 - Nov 21 with 2221 views | itfcjoe |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:05 - Nov 21 by glasso |
There already is a 'level,' though, isn't there? Can't girls play in boys' football when they're young but it gets phased out as they get older?
Surely the litmus test is if there's a male and female version of the sport, then the authorities have determined there's a biological reason for the two to be separated?
I can't really think of a sport where that isn't the case, but I'm sure there are some? |
Girls can play in boys football, but it is the opposite way that is the problem. It generally tends to phase out as puberty happens as boys bodies change irreversibly |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:14 - Nov 21 with 2208 views | glasso |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:11 - Nov 21 by itfcjoe |
Girls can play in boys football, but it is the opposite way that is the problem. It generally tends to phase out as puberty happens as boys bodies change irreversibly |
Yes you're right, I meant more that they're fine to be mixed at that age, whichever way round it happens, but I suspect you probably don't get many boys playing in the girls' teams... | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:36 - Nov 21 with 2168 views | charlie1 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:56 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
Of course they met the rules, hence they were playing. I thought that was a given.
The question is whether the rules are appropriate and fair, or if they need to change. That's the premise of the article and the work going on within football's governing bodies. |
It’s probably fair at this point, in the interests of full disclosure, to state that my middle child is a 22 year old transgender female.
She was an accomplished volleyball player as a youth, pre-transition.
We live in a small country town, about 300km from the nearest major town, with a population roughly the size of Kesgrave.
The volleyball league is a mixed league, the rules being that, of the six players on court at any one time at least two MUST be female.
The common and understandable reaction to this is ‘that’s great for Jess, problem solved’, but here’s the rub.
Having gone through years of aggressive medicinal treatment (on top of the deep and confronting psychological treatment etc.) her male hormone levels have been chemically lowered to less than my 17 year old ‘birth female’ daughter.
Jess is female, but if she takes the court as a female she is capable of spiking off the top net and there are opponents who would cry foul that she is counted as one of the two females in the team, even though there are other female players in the club who play to a higher standard.
So does she then have to play as a male to appease others sensitivities knowing that to do so would cause her, and us as her parents a huge amount of heartache and sadness? Or become a ‘third female’ in the team, and exist in some kind of ‘twilight zone’.
Her choice is to walk away from a sport that she loves to avoid the arguments and hostility it would cause. She sits in her room playing video games and dealing with the suicidal ideation that comes from ‘not belonging’, and as parents we are just happy to see that she wakes up the next morning.
Her need (not want, need) to be her true self gives her no special privileges or advantages whatsoever in life. In fact she has to fight daily battles, in all directions, just to exist. Battles that the vast majority of us cannot even comprehend.
But the one thing I can assure you of, is that not once has her journey been motivated by the desire to be able to jump half an inch higher, run 0.1 of a second quicker or kick a ball harder than a ‘birth female’.
And the sad part is that, just because she might be able to do those things, it is used as stick to beat her with, and deny her the chance to enjoy all the social, cultural, physiological and psychological benefits of sport that the majority of us take for granted. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:43 - Nov 21 with 2132 views | jaykay |
the problem in any sport is when a man /boy is transgender female competing against females, never women transgender men competing against men.
not that i have no idea to the solution to the answer in this thread |  |
| forensic experts say footers and spruces fingerprints were not found at the scene after the weekends rows |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:47 - Nov 21 with 2119 views | GeoffSentence |
Transgender competitors just enter the male category sport perhaps. No advantage for them then. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:57 - Nov 21 with 2093 views | management |
Sure I read or heard that Swimming brought in a separate category for a recent tournament, the downside was no one volunteered to compere in this category. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:58 - Nov 21 with 2089 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:47 - Nov 21 by GeoffSentence |
Transgender competitors just enter the male category sport perhaps. No advantage for them then. |
A likely disadvantage though? Not easy, is it? The approach to let each sport’s governing body decide on its own position and rules is probably sensible. Physical differences will have different implications for different sports. Although sometimes too much is made of size differences, as there are big differences within individual sex groups anyway.
Quite how you balance competitive fairness with respect for people’s individual rights is beyond me though. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:06 - Nov 21 with 2057 views | GeoffSentence |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:58 - Nov 21 by Swansea_Blue |
A likely disadvantage though? Not easy, is it? The approach to let each sport’s governing body decide on its own position and rules is probably sensible. Physical differences will have different implications for different sports. Although sometimes too much is made of size differences, as there are big differences within individual sex groups anyway.
Quite how you balance competitive fairness with respect for people’s individual rights is beyond me though. |
There would be a likely disadvantage for them. Would that be a concern though? When they've gone though something as radical as a change of gender is playing at a lower level of sport going to be a big thing? | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:08 - Nov 21 with 2045 views | Skip_Intro |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:58 - Nov 21 by Swansea_Blue |
A likely disadvantage though? Not easy, is it? The approach to let each sport’s governing body decide on its own position and rules is probably sensible. Physical differences will have different implications for different sports. Although sometimes too much is made of size differences, as there are big differences within individual sex groups anyway.
Quite how you balance competitive fairness with respect for people’s individual rights is beyond me though. |
Would the ideal solution be to have a separate transgender category for more physical sports?
I guess the pragmatic barrier to this (without getting into the 'rights and wrongs' of it) might be the numbers of competitors - e.g. finding enough transgender people to make up a football team in one area |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:12 - Nov 21 with 2031 views | Vegtablue |
I've googled other articles and she's a terrifying opponent in the female game, no question! Was there physical contact during the block or was it a freak knee break? We do know Francesca only played two competitive games and I don't know how female footballers are expected to lose safely to someone with that physicality in a contact sport. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:21 - Nov 21 with 1973 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:36 - Nov 21 by charlie1 |
It’s probably fair at this point, in the interests of full disclosure, to state that my middle child is a 22 year old transgender female.
She was an accomplished volleyball player as a youth, pre-transition.
We live in a small country town, about 300km from the nearest major town, with a population roughly the size of Kesgrave.
The volleyball league is a mixed league, the rules being that, of the six players on court at any one time at least two MUST be female.
The common and understandable reaction to this is ‘that’s great for Jess, problem solved’, but here’s the rub.
Having gone through years of aggressive medicinal treatment (on top of the deep and confronting psychological treatment etc.) her male hormone levels have been chemically lowered to less than my 17 year old ‘birth female’ daughter.
Jess is female, but if she takes the court as a female she is capable of spiking off the top net and there are opponents who would cry foul that she is counted as one of the two females in the team, even though there are other female players in the club who play to a higher standard.
So does she then have to play as a male to appease others sensitivities knowing that to do so would cause her, and us as her parents a huge amount of heartache and sadness? Or become a ‘third female’ in the team, and exist in some kind of ‘twilight zone’.
Her choice is to walk away from a sport that she loves to avoid the arguments and hostility it would cause. She sits in her room playing video games and dealing with the suicidal ideation that comes from ‘not belonging’, and as parents we are just happy to see that she wakes up the next morning.
Her need (not want, need) to be her true self gives her no special privileges or advantages whatsoever in life. In fact she has to fight daily battles, in all directions, just to exist. Battles that the vast majority of us cannot even comprehend.
But the one thing I can assure you of, is that not once has her journey been motivated by the desire to be able to jump half an inch higher, run 0.1 of a second quicker or kick a ball harder than a ‘birth female’.
And the sad part is that, just because she might be able to do those things, it is used as stick to beat her with, and deny her the chance to enjoy all the social, cultural, physiological and psychological benefits of sport that the majority of us take for granted. |
It's always good to have insight from people with real life experience, I appreciate you taking the time to write that.
I think more generally as a society there's just a long way to go in terms of understanding in this area, although I do feel confident that things are slowly changing and hopefully life is getting a little easier for people.
Re. Sport specifically, your point around hormone levels is interesting, and could well be a consideration in any future decision making in the area. It feels very grey to me, I appreciate in your example there perhaps isn't a discernable biological benefit to her among her peers, but I'm not sure that's true of all disciplines, and there have been some high profile cases of trans athletes wiping the floor with their competition. The square I always struggle to circle is where that stops though, e.g. height or weight categories within gender categories? You could argue that just about all top sports people are genetically advantaged, hence they've reached such levels. Mo Farah for example, I'm not built like he is. I think it's a sticky area, and as I said I don't know the answer.
I wish your daughter well in her future endeavors. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:24 - Nov 21 with 1963 views | itfcjoe |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 13:58 - Nov 21 by Swansea_Blue |
A likely disadvantage though? Not easy, is it? The approach to let each sport’s governing body decide on its own position and rules is probably sensible. Physical differences will have different implications for different sports. Although sometimes too much is made of size differences, as there are big differences within individual sex groups anyway.
Quite how you balance competitive fairness with respect for people’s individual rights is beyond me though. |
I think opposed to each sport individually deciding there needs to be something more centralised that can then trickle down from there, otherwise you aren't going to get good governance when it is such a complex problem as each sport can't afford to do full peer reviewed processes amidst all the mud slinging that exists in this topic
In the majority of sports, physicality makes a big difference, and if all sports were mixed you'd imagine there would be very few, if any, that females could compete with males in.....and it is also unfair in sports when there is a need to keep taking testosterone suppressants to keep T levels down to certain levels to be eligible to compete, and that is before intersex and DSD athletes are considered.
It's hard to see past the outcome that sports remain what they always have been - i.e. an open category and a female/AFAB/ciswomen category - there is no way to exusre everyone can be happy with whatever is chosen so for me you have to prioritise fairness over inclusivity.
Some people will elect to prioritise inclusivity over fairness, as is their want, but there is no way the circle can be squared to prioritise both fairness and inclusivity, they are conflicting | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:32 - Nov 21 with 1931 views | Help |
All sports have 3 groups. Men. Woman. Trans. It is that simple but for some reason no sport seems to have gone down that route. Someone explain why I would love to know |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:36 - Nov 21 with 1914 views | Illinoisblue |
Is the international break over yet? |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:37 - Nov 21 with 1913 views | homer_123 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:32 - Nov 21 by Help |
All sports have 3 groups. Men. Woman. Trans. It is that simple but for some reason no sport seems to have gone down that route. Someone explain why I would love to know |
Not sure but one reason maybe because the individual in question who has transitioned to a women wants to compete with other women (or vice versa) as that is now who they are?
They don't want to be labelled 'trans' maybe? | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:49 - Nov 21 with 1867 views | Vegtablue |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:06 - Nov 21 by GeoffSentence |
There would be a likely disadvantage for them. Would that be a concern though? When they've gone though something as radical as a change of gender is playing at a lower level of sport going to be a big thing? |
The difficulty you have there is with belonging, from straightforward practical challenges like changing facilities to the psychological challenge of playing in a gender category that you don't identify with. If it's a team sport it could even be more isolating. Conversely, it isn't possible to include transgender athletes in numerous female sports while also preserving safety and sporting integrity.
Another answer to Help's question, with Homer already addressing the central issue perhaps for many of identity/belonging, is the practical issue of numbers. Trans people make up a very small percentage of the overall population, let alone sportspeople in the local community and let alone in the specific sport. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 15:21 - Nov 21 with 1781 views | Gogs |
I get that it’s nuanced, and that people look at it from a (un)fairness perspective for trans women and women from birth. I’m of the view that unfortunately life isn’t always fair and boundaries have to be drawn, as much from a safety perspective as anything else, particularly in sports where sheer physical size and strength is a factor. Having played cricket at reasonably competitive levels several years ago, I am of the opinion that the decision today to ban transgender women from international cricket is correct.
A friend of mine, who likes cricket but has not played at any real level, was talking about the Hundred competition a few weeks ago with me when he suggested that the way to make it better would be to make it a mixed game. My response was along the lines of ‘absolutely not, in any way ever’. Women would get killed/maimed playing at that level. Men have inadvertently killed men at elite level in cricket (Phil Hughes a recent example), and I would be extremely fearful of similar happening in mixed teams, and as an extension of this fear, if trans women were allowed to play at elite level. This is, and has to be, a safety first position rather than a fairness first position for me. I don’t buy it that just because it may not have happened with a trans woman in any particular sport (in particular contact sports and other non-contact sports like cricket where being injured by an opponent is still a real risk) that it could not or would not happen. It would only have to happen once and that would open a whole different can of worms.
Then where risk of injury from an opponent is not so much of an issue in sports (athletics, swimming, cycling, basketball etc) it really does come down to fairness. And if a trans woman has a physical advantage, then the fairest position to me is still women from birth only in women’s sports.
I hope a situation can arise where trans women can compete in their preferred sport at a level they enjoy, but I can’t see how that can be at the safety or disadvantage of women from birth, sorry.
Apologies if I may have used any incorrect terminology above, just trying to convey my position |  | | |
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