| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 15:39 - Nov 21 with 2212 views | DanTheMan |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:32 - Nov 21 by Help |
All sports have 3 groups. Men. Woman. Trans. It is that simple but for some reason no sport seems to have gone down that route. Someone explain why I would love to know |
You'd also need a fourth category for intersex, and then things really start to get confusing. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 15:43 - Nov 21 with 2181 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 12:18 - Nov 21 by _clive_baker_ |
It's very cheap and easy to throw out 'bigotry'. It's clearly a much more nuanced situation than being down to ignorance, quite the contrary really given the level of understanding and thought around the future and how a system is created that's inclusive for everyone. Hence why sports like football have a mens and womens distinction already. |
There is lots of bigotry. But there is also a refusal in some quarters to accept and address the patently obvious.
A person who has been through male puberty is, on average, advantaged in bone mass, muscle mass, size etc.
There is a lot of bigtory hung on the largely false idea that people will just identify conveniently to win things. But that doesn;t take away the reality that someone with those advantages does undermine the fairness of a competition for women, and in some sports does increase likelihood of injury, because women are physically less robust, on average. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:15 - Nov 21 with 2123 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 11:58 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont |
That’s silly.
Of course, trans people can and should be able to play sport at a lower level — although it does get more complicated at the top end where livelihoods are at stake. No need for absolutism just some of that fabled common sense we always hear about.
Sport and particularly at the lower, more participatory level is bigger than this. |
Last season I played in a mixed gender league. I had to hold back on the physicality, but the women still had good control/skills, so it was enjoyable for me and the team. The women know the men hold back more on the physicality and the men know they will be penalised for mild physicality.
The point here is there is agency and agreement to play together in a certain way. Not some telling me or the women to play together. Even at lower participatory levels, this agency is important. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:18 - Nov 21 with 2101 views | _clive_baker_ |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:15 - Nov 21 by Kropotkin123 |
Last season I played in a mixed gender league. I had to hold back on the physicality, but the women still had good control/skills, so it was enjoyable for me and the team. The women know the men hold back more on the physicality and the men know they will be penalised for mild physicality.
The point here is there is agency and agreement to play together in a certain way. Not some telling me or the women to play together. Even at lower participatory levels, this agency is important. |
I used to play in a mixed tag rugby league which none of us took very seriously, we were mostly there for the pints afterwards. 7 a side and a minimum of 3 women on the side at any time, it was good fun tbh although the physical difference was pretty evident. Other than when we played against antipodeans, some of those girls could handle themselves.
What I didn't like (and none of the girls in the group did either) was you would get 1 point for a dude scoring a try, but 2 for a girl. Meant you would typically get to the try line and try and offload to one of the girls in the team, but felt completely unnecessary. [Post edited 21 Nov 2023 16:19]
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:27 - Nov 21 with 2061 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:15 - Nov 21 by Kropotkin123 |
Last season I played in a mixed gender league. I had to hold back on the physicality, but the women still had good control/skills, so it was enjoyable for me and the team. The women know the men hold back more on the physicality and the men know they will be penalised for mild physicality.
The point here is there is agency and agreement to play together in a certain way. Not some telling me or the women to play together. Even at lower participatory levels, this agency is important. |
Agree 100%
In my own sport of rugby that I play and coach (men’s and women’s), we asked our women players in particular about what they wanted to do re: trans players. The overwhelming response at our club was that we should make space for them and this was seen as a key part of rugby’s inclusive values. Admittedly that’s at an amateur level but was still annoying to see that decision taken away from us by World Rugby who were put under pressure but should have been less dogmatic about their response.
All in all, I think this has been made into a much bigger issue than it needs to. Yes, there are issues at the highest levels but not giving the players themselves agency and not being more flexible (even we who play rugby could see a way forward) are the big sticking points. |  |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:36 - Nov 21 with 2043 views | Parsley |
A lot of the examples given are for elite sport but for me there is a difference participating in sports at a lower level. I don't know exactly what level the Sheffield & Hallamshire Women & Girls League is, but surely if Francesca was disproportionately advantaged then she'd be playing at a higher level. I get the arguments against trans women competing in women's competitions at a professional level and while it doesn't sit comfortably I do lean towards agreeing, but at lower level non-contact and semi-contact sports, just let them play. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:45 - Nov 21 with 2007 views | Kropotkin123 |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:27 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont |
Agree 100%
In my own sport of rugby that I play and coach (men’s and women’s), we asked our women players in particular about what they wanted to do re: trans players. The overwhelming response at our club was that we should make space for them and this was seen as a key part of rugby’s inclusive values. Admittedly that’s at an amateur level but was still annoying to see that decision taken away from us by World Rugby who were put under pressure but should have been less dogmatic about their response.
All in all, I think this has been made into a much bigger issue than it needs to. Yes, there are issues at the highest levels but not giving the players themselves agency and not being more flexible (even we who play rugby could see a way forward) are the big sticking points. |
Do you also agree that women's leagues should be free from trans participants if they don't feel comfortable participating in a mixed gender league? | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:54 - Nov 21 with 1983 views | Skip_Intro |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:36 - Nov 21 by Parsley |
A lot of the examples given are for elite sport but for me there is a difference participating in sports at a lower level. I don't know exactly what level the Sheffield & Hallamshire Women & Girls League is, but surely if Francesca was disproportionately advantaged then she'd be playing at a higher level. I get the arguments against trans women competing in women's competitions at a professional level and while it doesn't sit comfortably I do lean towards agreeing, but at lower level non-contact and semi-contact sports, just let them play. |
I think the point was that Francesca seriously injured another player because of her size/strength in relation to the other players - it's not an argument about her ability rather her physical stature/attributes.
Also football is not a 'non-contact' or 'semi-contact' sport is it? |  | | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 17:02 - Nov 21 with 1964 views | Darth_Koont |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 16:45 - Nov 21 by Kropotkin123 |
Do you also agree that women's leagues should be free from trans participants if they don't feel comfortable participating in a mixed gender league? |
Depends if there has been genuine consultation and discussion first. Effectively excluding people from sport is a big step and I’m not sure blanket bans are ever going to be the answer. The numbers of trans athletes are also very low so it probably should always be seen as case by case.
But I think that horse has bolted now. General levels of transphobia in the UK have been on the rise over the past few years and we’ve become a hotbed of transphobia in the world. So I don’t see any evidence of that changing anytime soon and there being a more sensible discussion. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 17:52 - Nov 21 with 1912 views | MattinLondon |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 17:02 - Nov 21 by Darth_Koont |
Depends if there has been genuine consultation and discussion first. Effectively excluding people from sport is a big step and I’m not sure blanket bans are ever going to be the answer. The numbers of trans athletes are also very low so it probably should always be seen as case by case.
But I think that horse has bolted now. General levels of transphobia in the UK have been on the rise over the past few years and we’ve become a hotbed of transphobia in the world. So I don’t see any evidence of that changing anytime soon and there being a more sensible discussion. |
Forgive my ignorance. Does a transgender female retain her ‘male strength’ after she transitions to a woman?
Apologies if this is clumsily written. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 18:11 - Nov 21 with 1841 views | DanTheMan |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 17:52 - Nov 21 by MattinLondon |
Forgive my ignorance. Does a transgender female retain her ‘male strength’ after she transitions to a woman?
Apologies if this is clumsily written. |
There are certain things you gain if you go through male puberty that aren't reversible, as far as I understand it.
They will have lower levels of testosterone though I believe.
Not 100% certain so if someone knows otherwise, please correct me. | |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 18:18 - Nov 21 with 1806 views | Skip_Intro |
stand anywhere you like...they've been dead for hundreds of years so they won't care | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 18:55 - Nov 21 with 1770 views | BigCommon |
Here's a thought.... Simple DNA test. |  | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 19:36 - Nov 21 with 1714 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 18:55 - Nov 21 by BigCommon |
Here's a thought.... Simple DNA test. |
What for? | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:00 - Nov 21 with 1655 views | sotd78 |
It seems to me the confusion lies between the use of gender rather than sex. If you are born female surely you remain female. You may choose to change your gender but you surely can't change the chromosomes? Or can you?
Likewise born male then you are male even if you trans gender
The all-girls club I am involved with states we will accept what your birth certificate says. That has kept the issue to date at and length. It seems at adult level there's no protection for clubs that want to play female-only since the distinction of gender versus sex is not made. Someone will have to make a decision soon in football. Probably FIFA. |  |
| Blue shirts/white shorts - sotd78 |
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| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:39 - Nov 21 with 1615 views | BigCommon |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 19:36 - Nov 21 by redrickstuhaart |
What for? |
Just in case they are part of the 17% that haven't chopped their cock off..
No need if they are in the 83% of trans women that still have their meat and two veg...
The whole thing is fkn nonsense..
Stop polluting the minds of our children... | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:58 - Nov 21 with 1597 views | MattinLondon |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:39 - Nov 21 by BigCommon |
Just in case they are part of the 17% that haven't chopped their cock off..
No need if they are in the 83% of trans women that still have their meat and two veg...
The whole thing is fkn nonsense..
Stop polluting the minds of our children... |
Kids are a lot more tolerant and understanding of people who are different than most grown-ups. It’s only when they get older and feed off their parent’s attitudes that they become arseholes. | | | |
| Nah. my nextdoor neighbour's kid.... on 21:04 - Nov 21 with 1586 views | Bloots |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:58 - Nov 21 by MattinLondon |
Kids are a lot more tolerant and understanding of people who are different than most grown-ups. It’s only when they get older and feed off their parent’s attitudes that they become arseholes. |
....is a right arsehole and he's only 6. |  |
| Enduringly lovable, intelligent and tremendously exquisite. |
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| Nah. my nextdoor neighbour's kid.... on 21:07 - Nov 21 with 1582 views | MattinLondon |
| Nah. my nextdoor neighbour's kid.... on 21:04 - Nov 21 by Bloots |
....is a right arsehole and he's only 6. |
Wait til he gets to 7… that’s when they get to be proper little s**ts. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 21:10 - Nov 21 with 1579 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:39 - Nov 21 by BigCommon |
Just in case they are part of the 17% that haven't chopped their cock off..
No need if they are in the 83% of trans women that still have their meat and two veg...
The whole thing is fkn nonsense..
Stop polluting the minds of our children... |
Grow up and stop being a hopeless uneducated bigot. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 21:44 - Nov 21 with 1518 views | BigCommon |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 20:58 - Nov 21 by MattinLondon |
Kids are a lot more tolerant and understanding of people who are different than most grown-ups. It’s only when they get older and feed off their parent’s attitudes that they become arseholes. |
Leave them alone.. | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 22:08 - Nov 21 with 1482 views | MattinLondon |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 21:44 - Nov 21 by BigCommon |
Leave them alone.. |
Leave who alone? | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 23:08 - Nov 21 with 1411 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 21:44 - Nov 21 by BigCommon |
Leave them alone.. |
Who? What on earth are you on about, and why are you so troubled by what's going on inside other people's heads? | | | |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 23:45 - Nov 21 with 1370 views | Swansea_Blue |
| Another sporting transgender dilemma… on 14:06 - Nov 21 by GeoffSentence |
There would be a likely disadvantage for them. Would that be a concern though? When they've gone though something as radical as a change of gender is playing at a lower level of sport going to be a big thing? |
Possibly not a concern. I don't really know and think too many people think they do know. As you say, what they've been through physically, and I suspect more mentally, will have been a bigger challenge than facing sport classification. It'll be different for everyone though I image. |  |
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