| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply 16:53 - Dec 20 with 12819 views | Mullet |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67754359
There's a 12 week consultation open now if you want to have your say. I can say, it has been a minefield in recent years. We've had pupils who have totally hidden their transition from parents and lived two lives effectively.
Parents who were totally onboard and included us in everything. Parents who seemed to blame the school and refuse to accept their kids' choices leaving us in a difficult position.
I just don't see how this really solves anything, or makes a decision. Safeguarding, no matter the issue is always the top priority. In the same way you always call a child by what they prefer whether that's a shortened version or you don't use a certain surname because that parent isn't around or whatever, deadnaming a kid just seems abhorrent to me still.
This is becoming yet another strand of social care where schools are just expected to fix it seemingly. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:43 - Dec 20 with 2056 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:32 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
i don't know where you got coercion or collaboration from. the new guidance says that, unless it has a serious safety concern, the school should let the parent know about johnny. seems to me that a parent who has responsibility for the child's life more broadly should be told it, and that, other than in extreme circumstances, loco parentis shouldn't allow a school to make the decision to withhold that information from a parent. |
So if the issue, as you now imply, is about the school withholding knowledge about a child that is significant, do you think that if a child comes out as gay to a teacher that the teacher should tell the parents? And if not, how is that different given how you've characterised the issue at stake? |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:45 - Dec 20 with 2047 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:40 - Dec 20 by redrickstuhaart |
They wont be participating in a deception against the parents. Thats important imo. |
Hmmmm, I think that's a stretch. In both cases the school has significant knowledge about a major aspect of a child's identity, I don't see why there should be a duty to disclose in one instance but not the other. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:46 - Dec 20 with 2042 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:36 - Dec 20 by Mullet |
Your post seemed to entirely miss that the pupil had made these decisions and presented thus.
The point about LP is that judgements have to be made on what turns up in the course of a lesson/day and responding to that. You seem to miss me outlining good practice and the process by which parents would be contacted and by whom. |
yes 'judgements have to be made on what turns up in the course of a lesson/day'. that's judgements that have to be reached in order to provide education during the school day. not decisions that affect the child more broadly or their lives beyond school. those decisions still rest with the parents and withholding information from parents, other than in extreme circumstances, seems to me to overstep what properly lies within the discretion of the school. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:48 - Dec 20 with 2029 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:41 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
i hope all homophobic language or bullying would be challenged. i'm sure teachers wouldn't want to draw attention to the kid. so there isn't any adjustment that would compare. the school's response in the two situations is quite different. having guidance on the adjustments that are appropriate and clarity on how parents are involved seems a good thing. |
I think that's a smoke screen to be honest and your 'hopes' are doing a lot of heavy lifting to create a sense of difference between the two cases that I'm not sure exists. You've implied elsewhere that the issue is actually about the school having significant knowledge that the parents don't and the parents being the ones who should be able to make decisions based on that knowledge and not the school. That being the case, why should the school not tell a parent that a child has come out as gay to them? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:49 - Dec 20 with 2021 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:46 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
yes 'judgements have to be made on what turns up in the course of a lesson/day'. that's judgements that have to be reached in order to provide education during the school day. not decisions that affect the child more broadly or their lives beyond school. those decisions still rest with the parents and withholding information from parents, other than in extreme circumstances, seems to me to overstep what properly lies within the discretion of the school. |
If the child is not presenting at home then ringing home to inform them presents a potentially serious safeguarding risk. So again, who makes that decision, that phone call and when? Or does the parent get 5-10 calls from every teacher the child sees in a couple of days of school, to make sure no one has lied to them | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 20:03 - Dec 20 with 1968 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:49 - Dec 20 by Mullet |
If the child is not presenting at home then ringing home to inform them presents a potentially serious safeguarding risk. So again, who makes that decision, that phone call and when? Or does the parent get 5-10 calls from every teacher the child sees in a couple of days of school, to make sure no one has lied to them |
I don’t think anyone is suggesting that approach, but that the school should speak with one voice |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 20:23 - Dec 20 with 1937 views | J2BLUE |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:46 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
yes 'judgements have to be made on what turns up in the course of a lesson/day'. that's judgements that have to be reached in order to provide education during the school day. not decisions that affect the child more broadly or their lives beyond school. those decisions still rest with the parents and withholding information from parents, other than in extreme circumstances, seems to me to overstep what properly lies within the discretion of the school. |
Completely agree. Parents should be informed.
Question for Mullet. What percentage of kids identify as trans or non binary in your experience? I read something the other day about a school with 580 kids where 30 of them were trans/non binary. I was surprised it was so many. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 22:00 - Dec 20 with 1892 views | DJR |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:36 - Dec 20 by redrickstuhaart |
The answer is that (1) their sexuality is private to them, unless they want to actively express it whereas changing gender, and being referred to differently etc in school is a very public thing. They are qualitatively different in that regard; (2) gender issues of this type often carry with them all manner of other issues, including mental health problems. Parents who are appraised of what is going on can at least seek assistance if needed. Excluded parents could make all sorts of other issues. How does a parent know to be aware of gender related bullying etc without knowledge of it ; (3) in terms of trust and working relationship with a school, it is plainly a problem to have someone actively referred to differently in school without their parents' knowledge. At that point you are effectively requiring the school to participate in a deception (i.e. when they revert to biological gender and names in a report or letter). Also, these things are going to get back to parents sooner or later. Kids talk to each other, as do their parents.
This is not to say that I agree with anything Badenoch has ever said or done. Her comments are ignorant and abhorrent, and encourage bigotry (quite intentionally). The issue at the core- should a school inform parents if a child is actively requesting to be / being referred to as a different gender at school is however a difficult one and very much case sensitive. Age, maturity etc are going to be major factors, as gaining some understanding of parents' likely position and attitude.
In short- there is a genuine and reasonable debate to be had about whether schools should inform parents. But anything prescriptive (per Badenoch) is fraught with difficulty. |
I don't things are as black and white as you suggest in your first paragraph, not least because many members of both groups are likely to have similar struggles in coming to terms with who they are. As a result, having separate rules for the two groups just seems plain wrong to me. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 22:05]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 22:15 - Dec 20 with 1851 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 22:00 - Dec 20 by DJR |
I don't things are as black and white as you suggest in your first paragraph, not least because many members of both groups are likely to have similar struggles in coming to terms with who they are. As a result, having separate rules for the two groups just seems plain wrong to me. [Post edited 20 Dec 2023 22:05]
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I think I have been very careful to make it clear that I do not consider it black and white.
Fundamentally, for a school to be involved in deceiving parents about something which parents may be able to provide support and care over, is problematic. But I understand the reasons why it is rarely that simple. |  | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 22:17 - Dec 20 with 1853 views | Geomorph |
Thankfully all these new Tory policies will be meaningless.. give it 18 months. I can’t think of a less qualified bunch of knackers to advise us on social policy matters |  | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 10:11 - Dec 21 with 1703 views | Herbivore |
They'll probably just introduce a bill disapplying equalities and human rights legislation for trans people. Sadly there is plenty of evidence that trans people are perceived differently from other individuals with protected characteristics. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 10:24 - Dec 21 with 1661 views | DJR |
I think this is what comes about when the Equalities minister doesn't really believe that gender reassignment should be a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, and certainly believes that gender reassignment is a lesser characteristic than other characteristics such sex and sexual orientation.
As it is, this guidance has been promised since 2018, and the fact that it has taken so long suggests to me how difficult an issue this is given what the Government's objectives appear to be.
The article indicates that Badenoch has ploughed ahead with the guidance despite concerns from Government lawyers. This suggests to me, given the guidance is only in draft form, that we could end up with final guidance not much different than the current position, or indeed that the guidance in final form won't even see the light of day. [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 10:29]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 10:42 - Dec 21 with 1602 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 20:23 - Dec 20 by J2BLUE |
Completely agree. Parents should be informed.
Question for Mullet. What percentage of kids identify as trans or non binary in your experience? I read something the other day about a school with 580 kids where 30 of them were trans/non binary. I was surprised it was so many. |
I would say that is way beyond typical, but you'll never get accurate data. Also schools reflect their local community and people fall into the trap of thinking homogenously so it's really hard to draw trends.
I worked in all boys school in a middling area for a bit a few years ago as supply. The amount of boys who were out as openly gay was way higher, presumably because they felt comfortable doing so.
In a faith school, I'd say it's unlikely that as many children would be out in either sense.
There has been a trend I'd argue, which people might dismiss as a social media symptom. Maybe a couple of years pre-Covid one student transitioned to a girl in their final couple of months. They'd always presented as a stereotypically "flamboyant" gay lad who came back after Easter as a whole new person(ality).
In more recent years girls transitioning to boys has been way more common and usually in years 9 or 10 - as you;d expect puberty is the big driver here. I'd say, you maybe get 5-10 kids in the later years over time so out of roughly 300-350 kids per year group it's a very small but visible %.
I also know of students who transitioned the second they left and began college so the extent of that, and what that represents in numbers is still small. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 11:02 - Dec 21 with 1542 views | J2BLUE |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 10:42 - Dec 21 by Mullet |
I would say that is way beyond typical, but you'll never get accurate data. Also schools reflect their local community and people fall into the trap of thinking homogenously so it's really hard to draw trends.
I worked in all boys school in a middling area for a bit a few years ago as supply. The amount of boys who were out as openly gay was way higher, presumably because they felt comfortable doing so.
In a faith school, I'd say it's unlikely that as many children would be out in either sense.
There has been a trend I'd argue, which people might dismiss as a social media symptom. Maybe a couple of years pre-Covid one student transitioned to a girl in their final couple of months. They'd always presented as a stereotypically "flamboyant" gay lad who came back after Easter as a whole new person(ality).
In more recent years girls transitioning to boys has been way more common and usually in years 9 or 10 - as you;d expect puberty is the big driver here. I'd say, you maybe get 5-10 kids in the later years over time so out of roughly 300-350 kids per year group it's a very small but visible %.
I also know of students who transitioned the second they left and began college so the extent of that, and what that represents in numbers is still small. |
Cheers, interesting stuff | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 11:08 - Dec 21 with 1516 views | DJR |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 10:42 - Dec 21 by Mullet |
I would say that is way beyond typical, but you'll never get accurate data. Also schools reflect their local community and people fall into the trap of thinking homogenously so it's really hard to draw trends.
I worked in all boys school in a middling area for a bit a few years ago as supply. The amount of boys who were out as openly gay was way higher, presumably because they felt comfortable doing so.
In a faith school, I'd say it's unlikely that as many children would be out in either sense.
There has been a trend I'd argue, which people might dismiss as a social media symptom. Maybe a couple of years pre-Covid one student transitioned to a girl in their final couple of months. They'd always presented as a stereotypically "flamboyant" gay lad who came back after Easter as a whole new person(ality).
In more recent years girls transitioning to boys has been way more common and usually in years 9 or 10 - as you;d expect puberty is the big driver here. I'd say, you maybe get 5-10 kids in the later years over time so out of roughly 300-350 kids per year group it's a very small but visible %.
I also know of students who transitioned the second they left and began college so the extent of that, and what that represents in numbers is still small. |
Thanks for that.
The prevailing narrative on the trans issue is about males who have transitioned along with the implication that they are or may be predatory, but your figures suggest transitioning the other way round may be far more common.
And interestingly the polling I have seen on this is that female attitudes to trans people are much more favourable than male attitudes. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 11:53 - Dec 21 with 1446 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 11:08 - Dec 21 by DJR |
Thanks for that.
The prevailing narrative on the trans issue is about males who have transitioned along with the implication that they are or may be predatory, but your figures suggest transitioning the other way round may be far more common.
And interestingly the polling I have seen on this is that female attitudes to trans people are much more favourable than male attitudes. |
I think all the trans people I know personally have transitioned from female to male. You're right that the media narrative is driven by concerns about predatory men transitioning to being women but there are lots of people who have transitioned the other way who rarely get any attention (or sympathy). | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:06 - Dec 21 with 1421 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 11:08 - Dec 21 by DJR |
Thanks for that.
The prevailing narrative on the trans issue is about males who have transitioned along with the implication that they are or may be predatory, but your figures suggest transitioning the other way round may be far more common.
And interestingly the polling I have seen on this is that female attitudes to trans people are much more favourable than male attitudes. |
It’s no great surprise because teenage girls are generally those who have suffered in any era whether it be anorexia or other body issues as more affected by social contagion | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:30 - Dec 21 with 1385 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:06 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
It’s no great surprise because teenage girls are generally those who have suffered in any era whether it be anorexia or other body issues as more affected by social contagion |
You seem to be suggesting being trans is a mental health condition. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:55 - Dec 21 with 1341 views | MrEko2001 |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:30 - Dec 21 by Herbivore |
You seem to be suggesting being trans is a mental health condition. |
It is. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 13:13 - Dec 21 with 1289 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:55 - Dec 21 by MrEko2001 |
It is. |
Why am I not surprised to see you ignorantly chirping up. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 13:18 - Dec 21 with 1269 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:06 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
It’s no great surprise because teenage girls are generally those who have suffered in any era whether it be anorexia or other body issues as more affected by social contagion |
hadley freeman has been very good in discussing the comparison to anorexia in adolescent girls and associates them both with fear of becoming an adult woman. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 13:27 - Dec 21 with 1215 views | Mullet |
That's another facet of the social contract with schools which has shifted in generations. The idea of suing schools/teachers/LA's etc seems to be the first gun certain parents reach for in any sort of standoff now.
It wastes time as the complaints are often without basis or the backing of law etc behind them too. So makes the mechanism unwieldy. Going straight to Ofsted or whoever, instead of working with the school or accepting realities seems to be encouraged by this government too.
But I'm going off on another tangent here. The culture of "customer service" in education is one of the reasons it has become addled with needless expenditures of time, money and effort. When they use the KCSIE as a shield to encourage it it's even more cynical in my opinion. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 13:31 - Dec 21 with 1196 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:06 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
It’s no great surprise because teenage girls are generally those who have suffered in any era whether it be anorexia or other body issues as more affected by social contagion |
I think it's really important not to take my anecdotal observations as gospel or indicative of much - it's not an issue that's been raised amongst colleagues elsewhere but I suspect next union meeting on a regional level, it will be in some small part.
What has really buffeted gender roles and attitudes of late is the Andrew Tate effect I would argue. You see that and COIVD as big drivers of poor behaviour and masculinity being focused on in schools in the last two years or so. I'd have to scan a few forums and websites to get a better handle on all these issues though. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:09 - Dec 21 with 1121 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:30 - Dec 21 by Herbivore |
You seem to be suggesting being trans is a mental health condition. |
It certainly will be for some people, and temporary, but this is the difficult part of it | |
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