| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply 16:53 - Dec 20 with 10385 views | Mullet |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67754359
There's a 12 week consultation open now if you want to have your say. I can say, it has been a minefield in recent years. We've had pupils who have totally hidden their transition from parents and lived two lives effectively.
Parents who were totally onboard and included us in everything. Parents who seemed to blame the school and refuse to accept their kids' choices leaving us in a difficult position.
I just don't see how this really solves anything, or makes a decision. Safeguarding, no matter the issue is always the top priority. In the same way you always call a child by what they prefer whether that's a shortened version or you don't use a certain surname because that parent isn't around or whatever, deadnaming a kid just seems abhorrent to me still.
This is becoming yet another strand of social care where schools are just expected to fix it seemingly. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:13 - Dec 21 with 1271 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 13:31 - Dec 21 by Mullet |
I think it's really important not to take my anecdotal observations as gospel or indicative of much - it's not an issue that's been raised amongst colleagues elsewhere but I suspect next union meeting on a regional level, it will be in some small part.
What has really buffeted gender roles and attitudes of late is the Andrew Tate effect I would argue. You see that and COIVD as big drivers of poor behaviour and masculinity being focused on in schools in the last two years or so. I'd have to scan a few forums and websites to get a better handle on all these issues though. |
I think as a middle aged man with younger kids, it’s mad how much I hear about Andrew Tate from those who work in schools, and just how much of a problem he is |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:29 - Dec 21 with 1234 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:09 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
It certainly will be for some people, and temporary, but this is the difficult part of it |
Being trans or indeed having gender dysphoria is not recognised as a mental health condition. That people think it is harks back to the days of thinking you can cure homosexuality. [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 14:51]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:41 - Dec 21 with 1203 views | bluelagos |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 12:55 - Dec 21 by MrEko2001 |
It is. |
People said exactly the same about gay people 100 years ago. They were struggling to understand how some people are different to them and so chose to instead label them rather than show empathy and understanding to what is complex and at times, uncomfortable issue.
I appreciate it can be difficult, but I suspect your view will be shown to be wrong and we will look back at those who struggle with gender identity now in the same way we do homophobes from years gone past.
You're choice how you see people, but they aren't going to change just because you don't like or approve of their identity choices. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:45 - Dec 21 with 1183 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:41 - Dec 21 by bluelagos |
People said exactly the same about gay people 100 years ago. They were struggling to understand how some people are different to them and so chose to instead label them rather than show empathy and understanding to what is complex and at times, uncomfortable issue.
I appreciate it can be difficult, but I suspect your view will be shown to be wrong and we will look back at those who struggle with gender identity now in the same way we do homophobes from years gone past.
You're choice how you see people, but they aren't going to change just because you don't like or approve of their identity choices. |
Well said. You showed more patience with this individual than I could muster (they have form). | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:57 - Dec 21 with 1153 views | bluelagos |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:45 - Dec 21 by Herbivore |
Well said. You showed more patience with this individual than I could muster (they have form). |
Cheers
Have kept out of the thread - primarily because I think the issue of informing parents of a pupil's choice is difficult. Ultimately child safety/safe guarding has to be the top priority, but clearly parents have rights too.
What disappoints me is when people (Like Tom Hunt) use the issue to try and stoke culture wars, for votes with little consideration for the harm they are potentially doing to the well being of vulnerable youngsters.
I have seen up close 2 people who have transitioned (one from one gender to another and another to a non binary gender) and know it is difficult for them but also those around them to fully understand.
When we (or at least me) went to school the term "Non binary" wasn't even a term in use, certainly I never heard it until maybe 10 years ago.
The older generation definitely struggle with it, youngsters much less so. That is why I am confident that in another 30 year we just won't see it as an issue, our attitudes will soften as we encounter and see non binary and trans people and we will simply increase our understanding and increase our acceptance of people who are different.
I think the proposals are an attempt to find a solution to a very difficult situation - but what is really simple, is that schools can and should support any pupil to identify however they choose. Dealing with family is going to be really difficult in many cases and I just don't have any firm thoughts other than the school should do what is in the best interests of the pupil. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:58 - Dec 21 with 1152 views | StokieBlue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 13:18 - Dec 21 by lowhouseblue |
hadley freeman has been very good in discussing the comparison to anorexia in adolescent girls and associates them both with fear of becoming an adult woman. |
Can you explain why she is a relevant source for this and should be cited as evidence? She doesn't seem to have any qualifications which would allow her to make such judgements and seems to have a history of transphobic views.
From Wikipedia:
"In November 2018, U.S. journalists from The Guardian published an opinion piece criticising a Guardian editorial about the Gender Recognition Act, claiming it was transphobic.[27] In tweets, Freeman defended the editorial.[28] She has since been cited as expressing views that some have considered transphobic, particularly in regards to trans people seeking healthcare, and trans people struggling with suicidal ideation.[29][30][31] In June 2021, Freeman used her regular opinion column in The Guardian to describe that she had "lost at least a dozen friends over this ... friends who have told me my beliefs are transphobic".
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:04 - Dec 21 with 1120 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:58 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
Can you explain why she is a relevant source for this and should be cited as evidence? She doesn't seem to have any qualifications which would allow her to make such judgements and seems to have a history of transphobic views.
From Wikipedia:
"In November 2018, U.S. journalists from The Guardian published an opinion piece criticising a Guardian editorial about the Gender Recognition Act, claiming it was transphobic.[27] In tweets, Freeman defended the editorial.[28] She has since been cited as expressing views that some have considered transphobic, particularly in regards to trans people seeking healthcare, and trans people struggling with suicidal ideation.[29][30][31] In June 2021, Freeman used her regular opinion column in The Guardian to describe that she had "lost at least a dozen friends over this ... friends who have told me my beliefs are transphobic".
SB |
she's a very serious journalist and has personal experience of anoxeria, for example. we don't usually seek the qualifications of journalists beyond their journalism. she doesn't have a history of transphobic views - being accused of such is in no way proof of it. she is someone who believes that biology is a significant determinant of the life experience of adult females and sadly some people throw insults at women who hold that view. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:07 - Dec 21 with 1093 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:57 - Dec 21 by bluelagos |
Cheers
Have kept out of the thread - primarily because I think the issue of informing parents of a pupil's choice is difficult. Ultimately child safety/safe guarding has to be the top priority, but clearly parents have rights too.
What disappoints me is when people (Like Tom Hunt) use the issue to try and stoke culture wars, for votes with little consideration for the harm they are potentially doing to the well being of vulnerable youngsters.
I have seen up close 2 people who have transitioned (one from one gender to another and another to a non binary gender) and know it is difficult for them but also those around them to fully understand.
When we (or at least me) went to school the term "Non binary" wasn't even a term in use, certainly I never heard it until maybe 10 years ago.
The older generation definitely struggle with it, youngsters much less so. That is why I am confident that in another 30 year we just won't see it as an issue, our attitudes will soften as we encounter and see non binary and trans people and we will simply increase our understanding and increase our acceptance of people who are different.
I think the proposals are an attempt to find a solution to a very difficult situation - but what is really simple, is that schools can and should support any pupil to identify however they choose. Dealing with family is going to be really difficult in many cases and I just don't have any firm thoughts other than the school should do what is in the best interests of the pupil. |
Agree with virtually all of that, except the intent of the proposals. If you look at the tweets accompanying their release it includes stuff like *Nobody is born into the wrong body* despite the fact that this is pretty much exactly what body dysphoria is and accurately describes how trans people have experienced living with their birth gender. As I've mentioned on this thread, if the intention is to include parents so they can support their kids, why isn't there already a policy like this for young people who come out as gay? It's just othering trans people all over again. I don't necessarily disagree with the principle of having some guidance but the way it's been done is clunky and feels like another missile launched in the culture wars rather than a genuine attempt to sensitively address a complex issue. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:07 - Dec 21 with 1090 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:41 - Dec 21 by bluelagos |
People said exactly the same about gay people 100 years ago. They were struggling to understand how some people are different to them and so chose to instead label them rather than show empathy and understanding to what is complex and at times, uncomfortable issue.
I appreciate it can be difficult, but I suspect your view will be shown to be wrong and we will look back at those who struggle with gender identity now in the same way we do homophobes from years gone past.
You're choice how you see people, but they aren't going to change just because you don't like or approve of their identity choices. |
while being trans certainly isn't a mental health condition, in the case of adolescents, especially girls, it does seem to be associated with conditions such a anorexia and autistic spectrum diagnoses. so there is discussion of what the triggers may be. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:08 - Dec 21 with 1080 views | StokieBlue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:04 - Dec 21 by lowhouseblue |
she's a very serious journalist and has personal experience of anoxeria, for example. we don't usually seek the qualifications of journalists beyond their journalism. she doesn't have a history of transphobic views - being accused of such is in no way proof of it. she is someone who believes that biology is a significant determinant of the life experience of adult females and sadly some people throw insults at women who hold that view. |
Having personal experience of anorexia is obviously a horrible thing to have gone through but I don't see how it gives you validity or insight to form the conclusion you are suggesting on trans issues.
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 15:15]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:14 - Dec 21 with 1046 views | bluelagos |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:07 - Dec 21 by lowhouseblue |
while being trans certainly isn't a mental health condition, in the case of adolescents, especially girls, it does seem to be associated with conditions such a anorexia and autistic spectrum diagnoses. so there is discussion of what the triggers may be. |
I think the idea that something "triggers" a person's gender identity is dubious. (If that's what you mean)
Their identity is their identity - the difficulty of living in the wrong body (as they see it) may trigger lots of things - e.g. self harming - but not the other way round.
Anyhow - am going to step out - not to be rude - but my knowledge really is superficial and I don't feel comfortable giving strong opinions (Other than we should respect people's choices) | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:16 - Dec 21 with 1036 views | bluelagos |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:07 - Dec 21 by Herbivore |
Agree with virtually all of that, except the intent of the proposals. If you look at the tweets accompanying their release it includes stuff like *Nobody is born into the wrong body* despite the fact that this is pretty much exactly what body dysphoria is and accurately describes how trans people have experienced living with their birth gender. As I've mentioned on this thread, if the intention is to include parents so they can support their kids, why isn't there already a policy like this for young people who come out as gay? It's just othering trans people all over again. I don't necessarily disagree with the principle of having some guidance but the way it's been done is clunky and feels like another missile launched in the culture wars rather than a genuine attempt to sensitively address a complex issue. |
Fair comment. One thing you might be able to help me with - what is "othering"?
Seen it a few times recently and don't understand what is meant.
Edit - just googled it - could have just done that - but am a lazy sod sometimes. [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 15:21]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:23 - Dec 21 with 991 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 14:58 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
Can you explain why she is a relevant source for this and should be cited as evidence? She doesn't seem to have any qualifications which would allow her to make such judgements and seems to have a history of transphobic views.
From Wikipedia:
"In November 2018, U.S. journalists from The Guardian published an opinion piece criticising a Guardian editorial about the Gender Recognition Act, claiming it was transphobic.[27] In tweets, Freeman defended the editorial.[28] She has since been cited as expressing views that some have considered transphobic, particularly in regards to trans people seeking healthcare, and trans people struggling with suicidal ideation.[29][30][31] In June 2021, Freeman used her regular opinion column in The Guardian to describe that she had "lost at least a dozen friends over this ... friends who have told me my beliefs are transphobic".
SB |
Anyone who comments in this sphere other than to parrot the fallacy that ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘transmen are men’ is labelled ‘transphobic’ | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:25 - Dec 21 with 971 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:14 - Dec 21 by bluelagos |
I think the idea that something "triggers" a person's gender identity is dubious. (If that's what you mean)
Their identity is their identity - the difficulty of living in the wrong body (as they see it) may trigger lots of things - e.g. self harming - but not the other way round.
Anyhow - am going to step out - not to be rude - but my knowledge really is superficial and I don't feel comfortable giving strong opinions (Other than we should respect people's choices) |
i think discussing the triggers is legitimate and probably quite important. it's part of understanding - there needs to be some analysis deeper than phrases such a 'living in the wrong body'. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:28 - Dec 21 with 942 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:08 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
Having personal experience of anorexia is obviously a horrible thing to have gone through but I don't see how it gives you validity or insight to form the conclusion you are suggesting on trans issues.
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 15:15]
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so what's you're required level of qualification for a journalist to write on a subject and be respected? phd in the subject of an article and it's worth reading, but really anything less than holding a decent chair and you've got to question their validity and insight? | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:40 - Dec 21 with 905 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:23 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
Anyone who comments in this sphere other than to parrot the fallacy that ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘transmen are men’ is labelled ‘transphobic’ |
If you are worried about being labeled transphobic then a good start would be not using transphobic tropes such as labeling being trans as a mental illness and describing the statement 'transwomen are women and trans men are men' as a fallacy. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...... | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:50 - Dec 21 with 876 views | StokieBlue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:23 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
Anyone who comments in this sphere other than to parrot the fallacy that ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘transmen are men’ is labelled ‘transphobic’ |
I don't think that's very fair.
Labels tend to get applied when things are stated without evidence and from a narrative. We have one such narrative forming on this thread around mental health.
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 16:02]
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:58 - Dec 21 with 854 views | StokieBlue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:28 - Dec 21 by lowhouseblue |
so what's you're required level of qualification for a journalist to write on a subject and be respected? phd in the subject of an article and it's worth reading, but really anything less than holding a decent chair and you've got to question their validity and insight? |
You're being disingenuous, just like you were on the thread about MPs attacking academic research.
At best she's going to be writing an opinion piece as she has no academic evidence or qualifications to link what she is linking past a pseudo-correlation of age. To cite it in a debate is misleading as it implies a level of scrutiny and research that isn't there.
There is a large difference between opinion based journalism and evidence based journalism and how they should be used and cited. She very well may have some interesting ideas about what she believes to be the causes of wanting to transition but it's not based in science, it's based on correlation, inferred experience which may not be applicable and her own bias.
This should all be considered when citing something in a debate.
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:20 - Dec 21 with 780 views | Sikamikanico |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:23 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
Anyone who comments in this sphere other than to parrot the fallacy that ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘transmen are men’ is labelled ‘transphobic’ |
Maybe it would be for the best that people holding these views don't have their children outed by the school. |  | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:47 - Dec 21 with 715 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:50 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
I don't think that's very fair.
Labels tend to get applied when things are stated without evidence and from a narrative. We have one such narrative forming on this thread around mental health.
SB [Post edited 21 Dec 2023 16:02]
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That’s not really the case, there’s no room for nuance or a grey area - it’s either black or white and Freeman is a certified ‘TERF’ | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:55 - Dec 21 with 684 views | tcblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:23 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
Anyone who comments in this sphere other than to parrot the fallacy that ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘transmen are men’ is labelled ‘transphobic’ |
You seem a level headed guy on most other topics, I wonder if this is just a lack of exposure to the matter at hand.
While I don't think I held this view vehemently, I certainly changed my views and outlook when talking to a family member who came out as transgender (after school). Spending time with them, and (perhaps crucially) with their friends made me realise how it wasn't a sudden thing (I had been very naive to not realise over the years), and just how different gender can be from the physical side of sex (and in her case, sexuality).
I would imagine your kids will grow up in this world, and you'll either have to somewhat adapt, or risk alienation. I'm in my mid forties, and I'm still learning, but it wasn't tricky to start understanding, it just - shamefully - had to be someone close to me before I started it. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:56 - Dec 21 with 676 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:47 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
That’s not really the case, there’s no room for nuance or a grey area - it’s either black or white and Freeman is a certified ‘TERF’ |
There's not much nuance in your positions on this thread to be fair. Saying the statement 'trans women are women and trans men are men' is a fallacy is pretty black and white. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:58 - Dec 21 with 657 views | StokieBlue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 16:47 - Dec 21 by itfcjoe |
That’s not really the case, there’s no room for nuance or a grey area - it’s either black or white and Freeman is a certified ‘TERF’ |
Where should we be looking for the nuance in this statement?
"parrot the fallacy that ‘transwomen are women’ and ‘transmen are men’"
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:04 - Dec 21 with 626 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 15:58 - Dec 21 by StokieBlue |
You're being disingenuous, just like you were on the thread about MPs attacking academic research.
At best she's going to be writing an opinion piece as she has no academic evidence or qualifications to link what she is linking past a pseudo-correlation of age. To cite it in a debate is misleading as it implies a level of scrutiny and research that isn't there.
There is a large difference between opinion based journalism and evidence based journalism and how they should be used and cited. She very well may have some interesting ideas about what she believes to be the causes of wanting to transition but it's not based in science, it's based on correlation, inferred experience which may not be applicable and her own bias.
This should all be considered when citing something in a debate.
SB |
i'm not convinced that you are familiar with her writing or the research she has done. so i'll put yours down as an opinion based post rather than an evidence based one. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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