| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply 16:53 - Dec 20 with 10393 views | Mullet |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67754359
There's a 12 week consultation open now if you want to have your say. I can say, it has been a minefield in recent years. We've had pupils who have totally hidden their transition from parents and lived two lives effectively.
Parents who were totally onboard and included us in everything. Parents who seemed to blame the school and refuse to accept their kids' choices leaving us in a difficult position.
I just don't see how this really solves anything, or makes a decision. Safeguarding, no matter the issue is always the top priority. In the same way you always call a child by what they prefer whether that's a shortened version or you don't use a certain surname because that parent isn't around or whatever, deadnaming a kid just seems abhorrent to me still.
This is becoming yet another strand of social care where schools are just expected to fix it seemingly. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:39 - Dec 20 with 1058 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:33 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
You don't think people act on their sexual preferences in a school setting? I don't see that they are particularly different to be honest, they are both key parts of an individual's identity and things people choose to display or hide to certain degrees in different contexts. |
Well not in a way that is dictating that you are a different person to when you are at home |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:42 - Dec 20 with 1038 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:36 - Dec 20 by redrickstuhaart |
The answer is that (1) their sexuality is private to them, unless they want to actively express it whereas changing gender, and being referred to differently etc in school is a very public thing. They are qualitatively different in that regard; (2) gender issues of this type often carry with them all manner of other issues, including mental health problems. Parents who are appraised of what is going on can at least seek assistance if needed. Excluded parents could make all sorts of other issues. How does a parent know to be aware of gender related bullying etc without knowledge of it ; (3) in terms of trust and working relationship with a school, it is plainly a problem to have someone actively referred to differently in school without their parents' knowledge. At that point you are effectively requiring the school to participate in a deception (i.e. when they revert to biological gender and names in a report or letter). Also, these things are going to get back to parents sooner or later. Kids talk to each other, as do their parents.
This is not to say that I agree with anything Badenoch has ever said or done. Her comments are ignorant and abhorrent, and encourage bigotry (quite intentionally). The issue at the core- should a school inform parents if a child is actively requesting to be / being referred to as a different gender at school is however a difficult one and very much case sensitive. Age, maturity etc are going to be major factors, as gaining some understanding of parents' likely position and attitude.
In short- there is a genuine and reasonable debate to be had about whether schools should inform parents. But anything prescriptive (per Badenoch) is fraught with difficulty. |
There's a stack of evidence that gay and bisexual people are equally prone to poor mental health so I'm not sure that argument fully stacks up. And given the issue is whether and in what context someone is 'out' I'm not sure point 1 fully stacks up either. If someone is choosing to hide either their sexuality or gender identity at school then there's nothing for the school to share. If they are openly out in respect of their sexuality or gender identity then what is the substantive difference between the two aspects of their identity? |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:44 - Dec 20 with 1024 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:39 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
Well not in a way that is dictating that you are a different person to when you are at home |
If you're gay and you're out at school but not at home then you will act very differently in the two settings. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:49 - Dec 20 with 998 views | tcblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:39 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
Well not in a way that is dictating that you are a different person to when you are at home |
As someone already pointed out, if a child is more comfortable with this at school than at home, the safeguarding at the school isn't the question.
I cannot comprehend a scenario where a school 'outing' a pupil to their parents is for the good of the child. If their parents don't know about it, that's super troubling |  | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:56 - Dec 20 with 965 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:44 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
If you're gay and you're out at school but not at home then you will act very differently in the two settings. |
I think that is a stretch when talking about school age children | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:58 - Dec 20 with 964 views | BlueBadger |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:10 - Dec 20 by factual_blue |
No. They'll regret the impact the decision may have had. They won't ever, ever actually apologise for what they do. In this matter, or any other. |
No, they'll regret the impact the decision had on their reputations, not the people who were affected by it. Every LGBTQ person my age(48) has had their wellbeing impacted by section 28. This government are seeking to do the same to a new generation. |  |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:01 - Dec 20 with 945 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:56 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
I think that is a stretch when talking about school age children |
What is that based on? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:02 - Dec 20 with 941 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 17:46 - Dec 20 by itfcjoe |
I think it has become an impossible situation for schools, parents and kids as it is and will continue to be so - but looking at things purely as a parent I’d want to be informed if it was my children and not deliberately kept in the dark by the school - that’s the one thing example in the BBC article that would frighten me personally.
One parent told BBC News she was "completely horrified" when she found out her daughter had been using a different name and pronouns at school without her knowledge.
"At no point did they tell me what was actually going on," she said.
"They actively hid it from me for about four months, despite me being in touch with the school and expressing concerns about my daughter's wellbeing."
It is a minefield for use of single sex facilities as well, when the needs of all children have to be considered |
It's very hard to comment on that case cited because it is so vague in many ways. As a parent we'd like to think we have that relationship with our kids where they can tell us this stuff. The fact the child hasn't in this case raises some questions.
Why was school a place to feel "safe" and home not? Given the subtle bullying and not so subtle bullying that often ensues (especially if the school/year group/cohort) aren't used to trans pupils, it's a question of who picked this up at school and what decision making process they went through.
What expressions about welfare were made, how and to who makes it hard to judge when we have no prior knowledge of things that would be confidential or subject to privacy measures like social services involvement etc - not that there might be any.
But all this points to why this is such a difficult process and the government have waited until we break up to again, drop something controversial and ill-communicated to the public.
The problem is, in school we are in loco parentis and trusted with all sorts of information and decision-making so if a child presents a certain way, is more comfortable a certain way the primary concern is to accommodate that. To give a facile comparison:
I'm not going to ring a parent and say your child and "billy" don't work well together and are a pain in the ass so I'm moving them apart and not letting them sit together. I don't need their permission and it opens up potential conflicts with me as a teacher, the other kid and their parents etc.
If their kid turns up and says I wanna be known as XYZ and it's not on the register, calling their parents to check this is ok isn't a great idea, use of my time or way to foster a good relationship. But it should be recorded and passed on to the safeguarding/pastoral team as a matter of good practice. My concern in the first instance is to show positive regard to the child and making sure they are safe and able to learn.
Putting a wider picture together is where parental contact would be sought, such as if counselling was being sought or suggested either internally or adding them to the years of CAMHS waiting lists.
Stuff like that, the government are not emphasising here because it shows how badly they've allowed resources to rot. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:05 - Dec 20 with 914 views | BlueBadger |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:37 - Dec 20 by redrickstuhaart |
In fairness, there has been no finding that it was trans motivated so I am not sure its relevant to this issue. |
I'm sure that all the hateful WhatsApp messages shared in court as evidence were just youthful hijinks. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:07 - Dec 20 with 898 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:42 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
There's a stack of evidence that gay and bisexual people are equally prone to poor mental health so I'm not sure that argument fully stacks up. And given the issue is whether and in what context someone is 'out' I'm not sure point 1 fully stacks up either. If someone is choosing to hide either their sexuality or gender identity at school then there's nothing for the school to share. If they are openly out in respect of their sexuality or gender identity then what is the substantive difference between the two aspects of their identity? |
The difference is the school, if they choose to work with the child and use preferred namesand prnouns, or event dress code, are an active part in it. A teacher who knows a child is gay is not actively assisting them in expressing that (in the wider sense). | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:12 - Dec 20 with 876 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 18:36 - Dec 20 by redrickstuhaart |
The answer is that (1) their sexuality is private to them, unless they want to actively express it whereas changing gender, and being referred to differently etc in school is a very public thing. They are qualitatively different in that regard; (2) gender issues of this type often carry with them all manner of other issues, including mental health problems. Parents who are appraised of what is going on can at least seek assistance if needed. Excluded parents could make all sorts of other issues. How does a parent know to be aware of gender related bullying etc without knowledge of it ; (3) in terms of trust and working relationship with a school, it is plainly a problem to have someone actively referred to differently in school without their parents' knowledge. At that point you are effectively requiring the school to participate in a deception (i.e. when they revert to biological gender and names in a report or letter). Also, these things are going to get back to parents sooner or later. Kids talk to each other, as do their parents.
This is not to say that I agree with anything Badenoch has ever said or done. Her comments are ignorant and abhorrent, and encourage bigotry (quite intentionally). The issue at the core- should a school inform parents if a child is actively requesting to be / being referred to as a different gender at school is however a difficult one and very much case sensitive. Age, maturity etc are going to be major factors, as gaining some understanding of parents' likely position and attitude.
In short- there is a genuine and reasonable debate to be had about whether schools should inform parents. But anything prescriptive (per Badenoch) is fraught with difficulty. |
There becomes a rabbit hole of staff effectively spying on students (see the debates around PREVENT and Islamaphobia a few years ago). There are kids where we can see as a staff they questioning if not actively wrestling with their identity, specifically their sexuality.
At best these are still informed guesses. But kids will often come out to friends first.
If I was to overhear them discussing this in class/the corridor/the social spaces. Should I then report it immediately to their parents? For kids especially the lines are easily blurred especially when they feel so comfortable in school and around certain peers. One of our jobs is to help them see where the lines are and what's appropriate because they forget or don't always know. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:12 - Dec 20 with 872 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:07 - Dec 20 by redrickstuhaart |
The difference is the school, if they choose to work with the child and use preferred namesand prnouns, or event dress code, are an active part in it. A teacher who knows a child is gay is not actively assisting them in expressing that (in the wider sense). |
That's a different point from your original post but I still don't see that it justifies the difference in approach. There are other circumstances where a child might wish to be referred to by a different name at school (a shortened name or nickname) than they are referred to at home or where they may wear clothes at school that they don't wear at home. It doesn't mean the school should have to tell the parents that. The implication essentially is that being trans is harmful to children in a way that being gay or wanting to be called a different name is not, and so parents should therefore be informed. That's a rather othering attitude, imo. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:13 - Dec 20 with 862 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:02 - Dec 20 by Mullet |
It's very hard to comment on that case cited because it is so vague in many ways. As a parent we'd like to think we have that relationship with our kids where they can tell us this stuff. The fact the child hasn't in this case raises some questions.
Why was school a place to feel "safe" and home not? Given the subtle bullying and not so subtle bullying that often ensues (especially if the school/year group/cohort) aren't used to trans pupils, it's a question of who picked this up at school and what decision making process they went through.
What expressions about welfare were made, how and to who makes it hard to judge when we have no prior knowledge of things that would be confidential or subject to privacy measures like social services involvement etc - not that there might be any.
But all this points to why this is such a difficult process and the government have waited until we break up to again, drop something controversial and ill-communicated to the public.
The problem is, in school we are in loco parentis and trusted with all sorts of information and decision-making so if a child presents a certain way, is more comfortable a certain way the primary concern is to accommodate that. To give a facile comparison:
I'm not going to ring a parent and say your child and "billy" don't work well together and are a pain in the ass so I'm moving them apart and not letting them sit together. I don't need their permission and it opens up potential conflicts with me as a teacher, the other kid and their parents etc.
If their kid turns up and says I wanna be known as XYZ and it's not on the register, calling their parents to check this is ok isn't a great idea, use of my time or way to foster a good relationship. But it should be recorded and passed on to the safeguarding/pastoral team as a matter of good practice. My concern in the first instance is to show positive regard to the child and making sure they are safe and able to learn.
Putting a wider picture together is where parental contact would be sought, such as if counselling was being sought or suggested either internally or adding them to the years of CAMHS waiting lists.
Stuff like that, the government are not emphasising here because it shows how badly they've allowed resources to rot. |
loco parentis doesn't mean the school replaces the parent or that it can make decisions about the child's beyond school life. it is limited to decisions that the school must take in order to provide education etc, and parents are of course able to place explicit limits upon it (eg religious restrictions) which the school can't then over rule. the issue here is that gender id is something that impacts a child's life beyond school and education, and, unless there are real safety concerns, the school shouldn't seek to replace parental judgement about their child's welfare on such a wide ranging and beyond school matter. |  |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:16 - Dec 20 with 825 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:13 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
loco parentis doesn't mean the school replaces the parent or that it can make decisions about the child's beyond school life. it is limited to decisions that the school must take in order to provide education etc, and parents are of course able to place explicit limits upon it (eg religious restrictions) which the school can't then over rule. the issue here is that gender id is something that impacts a child's life beyond school and education, and, unless there are real safety concerns, the school shouldn't seek to replace parental judgement about their child's welfare on such a wide ranging and beyond school matter. |
But the same applies to sexuality and there is no explicit guidance being issued in respect of that. Why the difference? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:18 - Dec 20 with 815 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:13 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
loco parentis doesn't mean the school replaces the parent or that it can make decisions about the child's beyond school life. it is limited to decisions that the school must take in order to provide education etc, and parents are of course able to place explicit limits upon it (eg religious restrictions) which the school can't then over rule. the issue here is that gender id is something that impacts a child's life beyond school and education, and, unless there are real safety concerns, the school shouldn't seek to replace parental judgement about their child's welfare on such a wide ranging and beyond school matter. |
My post is dealing only within the scope of school life.
No one is ringing a parent and saying "Listen Johnny is now Jenny in their English class and you better let them dress how they want when they get home or we'll ring the Guardian".
Likewise, with religious preference the parent has to provide some sort of alternative so I'm not sure you've fully grasped the reality over the theory here. These scenarios are all child-led and child-centred. You're implying there's some sort of coercion or collaboration as far as your post reads. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:28 - Dec 20 with 765 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:16 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
But the same applies to sexuality and there is no explicit guidance being issued in respect of that. Why the difference? |
because sexuality at school doesn't assume or require any response from the school. teachers may observe or guess about a child's sexuality but there is nothing they need to do as a consequence. no adjustments are needed. whereas the assumption here is that if a child declares some gender change the school then makes adjustments for that. surely that's the difference. the guidance is to say what form of adjustment is and isn't appropriate. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:30 - Dec 20 with 747 views | itfcjoe |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:01 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
What is that based on? |
Having been a school age child, having had friends at school who were gay and in, gay and out, straight - generally the majority of people I knew were similar regardless of their sexuality in their relationships with their parents as isn’t something that is particularly relevant 99% of the time in a home environment | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:32 - Dec 20 with 740 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:28 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
because sexuality at school doesn't assume or require any response from the school. teachers may observe or guess about a child's sexuality but there is nothing they need to do as a consequence. no adjustments are needed. whereas the assumption here is that if a child declares some gender change the school then makes adjustments for that. surely that's the difference. the guidance is to say what form of adjustment is and isn't appropriate. |
What if they're targeted by certain pupils and subject to homophobic bullying? What if the setting is a faith school? What if their RE/PSHE/English/Drama classes cover themes around homosexuality or their culture which may upset them?
What is a teacher or senior leader required to do there? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:32 - Dec 20 with 738 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:18 - Dec 20 by Mullet |
My post is dealing only within the scope of school life.
No one is ringing a parent and saying "Listen Johnny is now Jenny in their English class and you better let them dress how they want when they get home or we'll ring the Guardian".
Likewise, with religious preference the parent has to provide some sort of alternative so I'm not sure you've fully grasped the reality over the theory here. These scenarios are all child-led and child-centred. You're implying there's some sort of coercion or collaboration as far as your post reads. |
i don't know where you got coercion or collaboration from. the new guidance says that, unless it has a serious safety concern, the school should let the parent know about johnny. seems to me that a parent who has responsibility for the child's life more broadly should be told it, and that, other than in extreme circumstances, loco parentis shouldn't allow a school to make the decision to withhold that information from a parent. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:35 - Dec 20 with 700 views | Herbivore |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:28 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
because sexuality at school doesn't assume or require any response from the school. teachers may observe or guess about a child's sexuality but there is nothing they need to do as a consequence. no adjustments are needed. whereas the assumption here is that if a child declares some gender change the school then makes adjustments for that. surely that's the difference. the guidance is to say what form of adjustment is and isn't appropriate. |
What if a child comes out as hat gay to a teacher? Are you saying they won't make any adjustments there, won't be more conscious of homophobic language being used or homophobic bullying taking place, for example? I don't think the situations are as different as is being made out but there is still a lot of unconscious othering that goes on when it comes to trans people. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:36 - Dec 20 with 696 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:32 - Dec 20 by Mullet |
What if they're targeted by certain pupils and subject to homophobic bullying? What if the setting is a faith school? What if their RE/PSHE/English/Drama classes cover themes around homosexuality or their culture which may upset them?
What is a teacher or senior leader required to do there? |
i hope a school would discuss serious bullying with parents. i think schools now have inclusive approaches to these subjects to avoid upset to kids who are exploring their sexuality or have reached a decision on it. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:36 - Dec 20 with 686 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:32 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
i don't know where you got coercion or collaboration from. the new guidance says that, unless it has a serious safety concern, the school should let the parent know about johnny. seems to me that a parent who has responsibility for the child's life more broadly should be told it, and that, other than in extreme circumstances, loco parentis shouldn't allow a school to make the decision to withhold that information from a parent. |
Your post seemed to entirely miss that the pupil had made these decisions and presented thus.
The point about LP is that judgements have to be made on what turns up in the course of a lesson/day and responding to that. You seem to miss me outlining good practice and the process by which parents would be contacted and by whom. | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:40 - Dec 20 with 656 views | redrickstuhaart |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:35 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
What if a child comes out as hat gay to a teacher? Are you saying they won't make any adjustments there, won't be more conscious of homophobic language being used or homophobic bullying taking place, for example? I don't think the situations are as different as is being made out but there is still a lot of unconscious othering that goes on when it comes to trans people. |
They wont be participating in a deception against the parents. Thats important imo. | | | |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:40 - Dec 20 with 654 views | Mullet |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:36 - Dec 20 by lowhouseblue |
i hope a school would discuss serious bullying with parents. i think schools now have inclusive approaches to these subjects to avoid upset to kids who are exploring their sexuality or have reached a decision on it. |
So an appropriate response is required? Your previous post opened with the opposite. Who should be responsible for deciding that response and communicating with parents? | |
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| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:41 - Dec 20 with 649 views | lowhouseblue |
| This has upset some of my colleagues deeply on 19:35 - Dec 20 by Herbivore |
What if a child comes out as hat gay to a teacher? Are you saying they won't make any adjustments there, won't be more conscious of homophobic language being used or homophobic bullying taking place, for example? I don't think the situations are as different as is being made out but there is still a lot of unconscious othering that goes on when it comes to trans people. |
i hope all homophobic language or bullying would be challenged. i'm sure teachers wouldn't want to draw attention to the kid. so there isn't any adjustment that would compare. the school's response in the two situations is quite different. having guidance on the adjustments that are appropriate and clarity on how parents are involved seems a good thing. | |
| And so as the loose-bowelled pigeon of time swoops low over the unsuspecting tourist of destiny, and the flatulent skunk of fate wanders into the air-conditioning system of eternity, I notice it's the end of the show |
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