| Mr Bates vs the Post office 18:25 - Jan 4 with 18267 views | bluelagos |
Anyone been watching? Would recommend it if not.
On Itvx catch up for dinosoars like me.
Scary how they can literally defend the indefensible, on legal advice, with scant regard for the people being fcked over. When people end up committing suicide then it all becomes a whole new level of evil.
Cnits |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 22:30 - Jan 8 with 3284 views | Ryorry |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 22:23 - Jan 8 by benrhyddingblue |
My best mate was one of the victims of this. Sadly he’s also one of the 18 who have died with no justice (56 just over a year ago). we’ll never know if the stress was a factor in bringing on his cancer (he was fit as …. before being diagnosed - able to cycle from the foot of Italy over the Alps and back to the UK). May sound stupid I can’t watch the series; I wouldn’t enjoy it. The things he told about the way he was being treated during this was truly awful. |
So sorry. Words are inadequate. |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 22:40 - Jan 8 with 3249 views | stonojnr |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 17:31 - Jan 8 by bluelagos |
Spoke to someone who has worked on Horizon itself (not at the Post Office) and has had their career in managing implementations.
They basically said that any new system will have bugs, even with thorough testing, and you even those out after launching. Nothing unusual there.
What does seem to be unusual is that the people auditing / prosecuting the POs were unaware of and/or ignored the ongoing system issues. That's where the failure is for me - the decisions to prosecute rather than accept the system was flawed. |
Ive spent alot of my career testing & developing large & complex software systems similar to Horizon, Ive never known a system that ever went live across the whole software industry, with the amount or kind of bugs its reported to have had, or would ever expect to find such fundamental bugs in a live deployed system, especially one that handled financial transactions.
I think the independent Second Sight's report into it, which labelled it not fit for purpose, not just it had a few teething problems & bugs we can iron out, speaks volumes, as thats the toned down language version for upper management to understand, not the real technical authors view of it. |  | | |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 23:17 - Jan 8 with 3208 views | PhilTWTD |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 22:23 - Jan 8 by benrhyddingblue |
My best mate was one of the victims of this. Sadly he’s also one of the 18 who have died with no justice (56 just over a year ago). we’ll never know if the stress was a factor in bringing on his cancer (he was fit as …. before being diagnosed - able to cycle from the foot of Italy over the Alps and back to the UK). May sound stupid I can’t watch the series; I wouldn’t enjoy it. The things he told about the way he was being treated during this was truly awful. |
Sorry to hear about your friend. What he and those in a similar position went through is unimaginable. |  | | |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 00:17 - Jan 9 with 3174 views | grow_our_own |
Amazed that this scandal didn't break in 2009 after Computer Weekly ran the story. What were the rest of the media doing? Computing was far less sexy in those days I suppose, something geeks, not gazillionaires did. Still, other than Private Eye, asleep at the wheel.
I worked for POL IT while Paula Vennells CBE was in charge. The most incompetent people I've ever worked with. Their main analyticsdata science system ran in Microsoft Access. It was about a decade later than I'd seen this archaic software used anywhere else. I was nowhere near Horizon. Knew nothing about it. POL had layer upon layer of IT supplier vultures feasting on POL's technology apathy, and I was far removed. POL should have made tech their core competency. It was long after the 2007ish digital revolution when successful companies in their position started developing their own software. Instead they outsourced everything. POL's anti-tech management had a massive heavy drinking culture. Senior managers lapped up the wineoyster bar schmoozing scene. They didn't give a f#ck. Just signed the cheques and hit the bar at 5pm. Suppliers followed their lead. I wasn't surprised in the slightest when, some years after leaving, I found out about this scandal (I hadn't read the stories in CW & Private Eye before I joined).
Royal Mail divested POL around then and by comparison they had actual software engineers who understood and liked technology on the payroll. You could tell the distain RM tech had for their counterparts at POL.
Who gave Vennells the CBE in 2019? By then, POL had already lost the civil suit and had to pay > £100m. It was known that she lied to the Treasury Select Committee. Honours system is a cess-pit. We have a culture of venerating the undeserving in this country. If it's okay to give head of state to a single rich family, then why not hand out gongs to people like Vennells? Makes you sick. We'd be so much better off as a republic. | | | |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 09:31 - Jan 9 with 3052 views | Ryorry |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 00:17 - Jan 9 by grow_our_own |
Amazed that this scandal didn't break in 2009 after Computer Weekly ran the story. What were the rest of the media doing? Computing was far less sexy in those days I suppose, something geeks, not gazillionaires did. Still, other than Private Eye, asleep at the wheel.
I worked for POL IT while Paula Vennells CBE was in charge. The most incompetent people I've ever worked with. Their main analyticsdata science system ran in Microsoft Access. It was about a decade later than I'd seen this archaic software used anywhere else. I was nowhere near Horizon. Knew nothing about it. POL had layer upon layer of IT supplier vultures feasting on POL's technology apathy, and I was far removed. POL should have made tech their core competency. It was long after the 2007ish digital revolution when successful companies in their position started developing their own software. Instead they outsourced everything. POL's anti-tech management had a massive heavy drinking culture. Senior managers lapped up the wineoyster bar schmoozing scene. They didn't give a f#ck. Just signed the cheques and hit the bar at 5pm. Suppliers followed their lead. I wasn't surprised in the slightest when, some years after leaving, I found out about this scandal (I hadn't read the stories in CW & Private Eye before I joined).
Royal Mail divested POL around then and by comparison they had actual software engineers who understood and liked technology on the payroll. You could tell the distain RM tech had for their counterparts at POL.
Who gave Vennells the CBE in 2019? By then, POL had already lost the civil suit and had to pay > £100m. It was known that she lied to the Treasury Select Committee. Honours system is a cess-pit. We have a culture of venerating the undeserving in this country. If it's okay to give head of state to a single rich family, then why not hand out gongs to people like Vennells? Makes you sick. We'd be so much better off as a republic. |
Wow, interesting insights, thanks for posting. | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 10:03 - Jan 9 with 3017 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 00:17 - Jan 9 by grow_our_own |
Amazed that this scandal didn't break in 2009 after Computer Weekly ran the story. What were the rest of the media doing? Computing was far less sexy in those days I suppose, something geeks, not gazillionaires did. Still, other than Private Eye, asleep at the wheel.
I worked for POL IT while Paula Vennells CBE was in charge. The most incompetent people I've ever worked with. Their main analyticsdata science system ran in Microsoft Access. It was about a decade later than I'd seen this archaic software used anywhere else. I was nowhere near Horizon. Knew nothing about it. POL had layer upon layer of IT supplier vultures feasting on POL's technology apathy, and I was far removed. POL should have made tech their core competency. It was long after the 2007ish digital revolution when successful companies in their position started developing their own software. Instead they outsourced everything. POL's anti-tech management had a massive heavy drinking culture. Senior managers lapped up the wineoyster bar schmoozing scene. They didn't give a f#ck. Just signed the cheques and hit the bar at 5pm. Suppliers followed their lead. I wasn't surprised in the slightest when, some years after leaving, I found out about this scandal (I hadn't read the stories in CW & Private Eye before I joined).
Royal Mail divested POL around then and by comparison they had actual software engineers who understood and liked technology on the payroll. You could tell the distain RM tech had for their counterparts at POL.
Who gave Vennells the CBE in 2019? By then, POL had already lost the civil suit and had to pay > £100m. It was known that she lied to the Treasury Select Committee. Honours system is a cess-pit. We have a culture of venerating the undeserving in this country. If it's okay to give head of state to a single rich family, then why not hand out gongs to people like Vennells? Makes you sick. We'd be so much better off as a republic. |
Can confirm this culture within POL - the company I work for tried to get a contract with POL to supply mobile apps and devices in the 2010s - we had a couple of meetings with the relevant stakeholders and it was clear they didn't really have a clue what they wanted and basically would have left everythng to us to run - we decided, wisely as it turned out,... that we wanted nothing to do with them as it would cause far more grief to manage the contract than we would get in revenue |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 10:26 - Jan 9 with 2998 views | DanTheMan |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 00:17 - Jan 9 by grow_our_own |
Amazed that this scandal didn't break in 2009 after Computer Weekly ran the story. What were the rest of the media doing? Computing was far less sexy in those days I suppose, something geeks, not gazillionaires did. Still, other than Private Eye, asleep at the wheel.
I worked for POL IT while Paula Vennells CBE was in charge. The most incompetent people I've ever worked with. Their main analyticsdata science system ran in Microsoft Access. It was about a decade later than I'd seen this archaic software used anywhere else. I was nowhere near Horizon. Knew nothing about it. POL had layer upon layer of IT supplier vultures feasting on POL's technology apathy, and I was far removed. POL should have made tech their core competency. It was long after the 2007ish digital revolution when successful companies in their position started developing their own software. Instead they outsourced everything. POL's anti-tech management had a massive heavy drinking culture. Senior managers lapped up the wineoyster bar schmoozing scene. They didn't give a f#ck. Just signed the cheques and hit the bar at 5pm. Suppliers followed their lead. I wasn't surprised in the slightest when, some years after leaving, I found out about this scandal (I hadn't read the stories in CW & Private Eye before I joined).
Royal Mail divested POL around then and by comparison they had actual software engineers who understood and liked technology on the payroll. You could tell the distain RM tech had for their counterparts at POL.
Who gave Vennells the CBE in 2019? By then, POL had already lost the civil suit and had to pay > £100m. It was known that she lied to the Treasury Select Committee. Honours system is a cess-pit. We have a culture of venerating the undeserving in this country. If it's okay to give head of state to a single rich family, then why not hand out gongs to people like Vennells? Makes you sick. We'd be so much better off as a republic. |
"Their main analyticsdata science system ran in Microsoft Access"
You could have ended there for me! Insanity. |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 11:51 - Jan 9 with 2969 views | blueasfook |
Speaking of this - if you were following that Man Behaving Dadly (Simon Harris) guy on X who is well-known for setting up fundraisers to get him some attention. It turns out he may have been up to dodgy things and has deleted pretty much all of his social media presence since questions started being asked. He had set up a GoFundMe for Horizon victims before he disappeared, so DO NOT donate to it. |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 12:30 - Jan 9 with 2920 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 11:51 - Jan 9 by blueasfook |
Speaking of this - if you were following that Man Behaving Dadly (Simon Harris) guy on X who is well-known for setting up fundraisers to get him some attention. It turns out he may have been up to dodgy things and has deleted pretty much all of his social media presence since questions started being asked. He had set up a GoFundMe for Horizon victims before he disappeared, so DO NOT donate to it. |
Hmm, interesting - is LegalGengar a fearless warrior exposing grifters, or.... | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:16 - Jan 9 with 2883 views | blueasfook |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 12:30 - Jan 9 by Ewan_Oozami |
Hmm, interesting - is LegalGengar a fearless warrior exposing grifters, or.... |
Don't know the ins and outs of it but he seems to have had a very large payment from Essex County Council for doing not very much, and his senior councillor pal closed down her X page at the same time. All very suss! I am sure it will all come out in the wash. | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:40 - Jan 9 with 2852 views | Ewan_Oozami |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:16 - Jan 9 by blueasfook |
Don't know the ins and outs of it but he seems to have had a very large payment from Essex County Council for doing not very much, and his senior councillor pal closed down her X page at the same time. All very suss! I am sure it will all come out in the wash. |
It is interesting because, yes, it is in the public interest for grifters to be exposed, and there is certainly some interesting financial behaviour going on by people online who LBFers generally hold a high regard for.
But what's more interesting to me is why specifically is LegalGengar doing this now, what's the motivation? I think there may be something else going on here...... | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:49 - Jan 9 with 2835 views | Steve_M |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:40 - Jan 9 by Ewan_Oozami |
It is interesting because, yes, it is in the public interest for grifters to be exposed, and there is certainly some interesting financial behaviour going on by people online who LBFers generally hold a high regard for.
But what's more interesting to me is why specifically is LegalGengar doing this now, what's the motivation? I think there may be something else going on here...... |
I came across it recently too, the account seems to have started by accusing Jack Monroe of grift, contributed to a Crowdfunder and wasn't treated as promised. Some of the other retweets though suggest more of an agenda (nothing professional contrarian Brendan O'Neill has to say is vitally important for example).
Not that exposing grift and having an agenda are necessarily contradictory points but I'm unsure at this point.
Definitely Social Media allows a lot of grift via crowdfunding - dead pets/grandmas, dubious court cases, Yaxley-Lennon's legal fees etc - so caution is definitely advisable. |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:55 - Jan 9 with 2824 views | blueasfook |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:49 - Jan 9 by Steve_M |
I came across it recently too, the account seems to have started by accusing Jack Monroe of grift, contributed to a Crowdfunder and wasn't treated as promised. Some of the other retweets though suggest more of an agenda (nothing professional contrarian Brendan O'Neill has to say is vitally important for example).
Not that exposing grift and having an agenda are necessarily contradictory points but I'm unsure at this point.
Definitely Social Media allows a lot of grift via crowdfunding - dead pets/grandmas, dubious court cases, Yaxley-Lennon's legal fees etc - so caution is definitely advisable. |
I think of a lot of it starts on Tattle Life - they certainly have an agenda on there for going after the tory-hating FBPE crowd. But then, if they're up to no good, why not. | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 15:03 - Jan 9 with 2763 views | oldbeardy |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 17:26 - Jan 8 by DanTheMan |
Yes, they would have been easily replicated, and any half-decent developer would know that these problems could happen. Given their nature, most would probably be fairly trivial to solve I'd have thought.
My experience tells me that the developers at Fujitsu probably weren't incompetent but probably were under a silly time constraint and overworked, before being moved onto another project. They probably knew these issues existed but management no doubt said "Eh, good enough, ship it". That sort of attitude can be fine in some applications but not when you're dealing with money. |
There must presumably have been a senior programme board, which usually would be chaired by the senior accountable business-side exec. You would expect it to have taken a formal "go/no-go" decision, part of which ought to have been a categorised list by severity of software/hardware issues found in testing. While additional issues might well have emerged as people began to use the system in live, any such programme board decision and associated papers would make interesting reading I imagine. As others have said, big and complex systems are hard to implement and mistakes happen but it is the way they were handled that makes this all so awful | | | |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 21:58 - Jan 9 with 2654 views | FrimleyBlue |
There was a resident who a fair few years ago left the town as he was deemed to have stolen from his post office.
Many locals are now wondering if he was one of those unfortunate ones. Everyone was shocked when it happened and most only found out about the whole situation through this recent drama.
Incredible how there has been various showings of whar went on.. but this recent drama has really awoken alot of people to what happened across the UK. |  |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:41 - Jan 10 with 2559 views | Ryorry |
For anyone who’s been on the dark side of the moon or in Norwich this morning, Parliament has passed a unique law of mass exoneration for all those SPMs convicted, plus an immediate upfront payment of £75k compensation - more to follow presumably (preferably some of it from Fujitsu imho, who’ve made £6.5bn from 191 Government contracts since 2013).
Mention also made in interview with Alan Bates just now on R4 World at One, that he’s been nominated for a Knighthood, the interviewer adding her personal endorsement to that suggestion! | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 15:33 - Jan 10 with 2499 views | DJR |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 13:41 - Jan 10 by Ryorry |
For anyone who’s been on the dark side of the moon or in Norwich this morning, Parliament has passed a unique law of mass exoneration for all those SPMs convicted, plus an immediate upfront payment of £75k compensation - more to follow presumably (preferably some of it from Fujitsu imho, who’ve made £6.5bn from 191 Government contracts since 2013).
Mention also made in interview with Alan Bates just now on R4 World at One, that he’s been nominated for a Knighthood, the interviewer adding her personal endorsement to that suggestion! |
I do not support the honours system and believe the knighthood (supported by the Minister for Common Sense and No.10) is a pretty cynical but popular way to deflect criticism for a failure to act in a case which has been known about for a long time.
This from the Guardian reflects just what I was thinking.
"There is also something a bit depressing about the way the honours system means that almost every story about public success or failure in Britain ends up being refracted into a question about who gets, or loses, a gong. Does this happen in other countries?" [Post edited 10 Jan 2024 15:35]
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 18:04 - Jan 10 with 2431 views | Ryorry |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 15:33 - Jan 10 by DJR |
I do not support the honours system and believe the knighthood (supported by the Minister for Common Sense and No.10) is a pretty cynical but popular way to deflect criticism for a failure to act in a case which has been known about for a long time.
This from the Guardian reflects just what I was thinking.
"There is also something a bit depressing about the way the honours system means that almost every story about public success or failure in Britain ends up being refracted into a question about who gets, or loses, a gong. Does this happen in other countries?" [Post edited 10 Jan 2024 15:35]
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Have to disagree somewhat, in that whilst I agree the honours system is corrupt (never more obviously so than with this current shower of sleazeball charlatans in govt.), there are some individuals in our society who genuinely stand out as deserving of honours, or at least some system of awards that recognise the outstanding contributions they have made to their fellow human beings; Alan Bates being a shining example - 20 years of working for his colleagues, for no pay.
Unfortunately the current honours handed out to those who really do deserve it, like Mr Bates, are tarnished by handing them out like to confetti to those who not only don't deserve them but actually deserve the opposite - ie gongs awarded to those who covered up & should be in jail.
Also disagree somewhat with the Gruadian - clearly not everything in this case has been refracted back into the simple awarding of gongs. | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 18:46 - Jan 10 with 2399 views | DJR |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 18:04 - Jan 10 by Ryorry |
Have to disagree somewhat, in that whilst I agree the honours system is corrupt (never more obviously so than with this current shower of sleazeball charlatans in govt.), there are some individuals in our society who genuinely stand out as deserving of honours, or at least some system of awards that recognise the outstanding contributions they have made to their fellow human beings; Alan Bates being a shining example - 20 years of working for his colleagues, for no pay.
Unfortunately the current honours handed out to those who really do deserve it, like Mr Bates, are tarnished by handing them out like to confetti to those who not only don't deserve them but actually deserve the opposite - ie gongs awarded to those who covered up & should be in jail.
Also disagree somewhat with the Gruadian - clearly not everything in this case has been refracted back into the simple awarding of gongs. |
Those are perfectly valid points. | | | |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 20:52 - Jan 10 with 2344 views | DanTheMan |
Just watched another slightly more technical dive into some of the things shown at some of the later trials, which contained a snippet from this document.
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/FUJ00080
For context, PinICL are bug tickets.
It's a fairly dry document and unless you're interested in how early 2000s development flows worked, it's probably not worth reading the whole thing.
However, 7.3 is worth a read. It's in quite formal language (for the most part) but essentially boils down to.
"Parts of the code are well written, but a lot of it is really badly done and the bug fixes are making it worse."
It then has a fun bit of code for how you, in programming, reverse the sign of a number. I imagine most people would understand how you would do this if you had say a calculator.
To put it simply, multiply the number by -1. 10 turns into -10, and -10 turns into 10. Easy.
So what code did the geniuses at Fujitsu come up with?
If the number is below zero then...
Make it the absolute value ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value)
Else
Take the number and then subtract from it the number multiplied by 2
I wouldn't expect a junior to write something that bad, let alone someone writing code for a multi-million pound bit of software. Or to put it as they did in the internal report from Fujitsu
"Whoever wrote this code clearly has no understanding of elementary mathematics or the most basic rules of programming".
Ouch.
There are some other examples there for the programmers on here that should make you want to scream internally.
Turns out as well that they did indeed know about most of the bugs but there were just so many that they couldn't keep up.
They also sent people to knowingly lie at the trials. I did think that maybe Fujitsu was just a bit naff but that Post Office was covering for them but turns out they were just as in on it as the Post Office were. [Post edited 10 Jan 2024 20:55]
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 21:19 - Jan 10 with 2320 views | Ryorry |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 20:52 - Jan 10 by DanTheMan |
Just watched another slightly more technical dive into some of the things shown at some of the later trials, which contained a snippet from this document.
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/FUJ00080
For context, PinICL are bug tickets.
It's a fairly dry document and unless you're interested in how early 2000s development flows worked, it's probably not worth reading the whole thing.
However, 7.3 is worth a read. It's in quite formal language (for the most part) but essentially boils down to.
"Parts of the code are well written, but a lot of it is really badly done and the bug fixes are making it worse."
It then has a fun bit of code for how you, in programming, reverse the sign of a number. I imagine most people would understand how you would do this if you had say a calculator.
To put it simply, multiply the number by -1. 10 turns into -10, and -10 turns into 10. Easy.
So what code did the geniuses at Fujitsu come up with?
If the number is below zero then...
Make it the absolute value ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value)
Else
Take the number and then subtract from it the number multiplied by 2
I wouldn't expect a junior to write something that bad, let alone someone writing code for a multi-million pound bit of software. Or to put it as they did in the internal report from Fujitsu
"Whoever wrote this code clearly has no understanding of elementary mathematics or the most basic rules of programming".
Ouch.
There are some other examples there for the programmers on here that should make you want to scream internally.
Turns out as well that they did indeed know about most of the bugs but there were just so many that they couldn't keep up.
They also sent people to knowingly lie at the trials. I did think that maybe Fujitsu was just a bit naff but that Post Office was covering for them but turns out they were just as in on it as the Post Office were. [Post edited 10 Jan 2024 20:55]
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Wow. Just wow.
Worth repeating what I posted earlier - Fujitsu have made £6.5 billion from 191 UK Govt. projects since 2013*, incl. NHS.
*Figures were from BBC news, I think. | |
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| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 09:24 - Jan 11 with 2183 views | blueasfook |
| Mr Bates vs the Post office on 20:52 - Jan 10 by DanTheMan |
Just watched another slightly more technical dive into some of the things shown at some of the later trials, which contained a snippet from this document.
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/sites/default/files/2022-11/FUJ00080
For context, PinICL are bug tickets.
It's a fairly dry document and unless you're interested in how early 2000s development flows worked, it's probably not worth reading the whole thing.
However, 7.3 is worth a read. It's in quite formal language (for the most part) but essentially boils down to.
"Parts of the code are well written, but a lot of it is really badly done and the bug fixes are making it worse."
It then has a fun bit of code for how you, in programming, reverse the sign of a number. I imagine most people would understand how you would do this if you had say a calculator.
To put it simply, multiply the number by -1. 10 turns into -10, and -10 turns into 10. Easy.
So what code did the geniuses at Fujitsu come up with?
If the number is below zero then...
Make it the absolute value ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absolute_value)
Else
Take the number and then subtract from it the number multiplied by 2
I wouldn't expect a junior to write something that bad, let alone someone writing code for a multi-million pound bit of software. Or to put it as they did in the internal report from Fujitsu
"Whoever wrote this code clearly has no understanding of elementary mathematics or the most basic rules of programming".
Ouch.
There are some other examples there for the programmers on here that should make you want to scream internally.
Turns out as well that they did indeed know about most of the bugs but there were just so many that they couldn't keep up.
They also sent people to knowingly lie at the trials. I did think that maybe Fujitsu was just a bit naff but that Post Office was covering for them but turns out they were just as in on it as the Post Office were. [Post edited 10 Jan 2024 20:55]
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Eek! all that hard-coded stuff as well. Shocking. | |
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