| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... 23:12 - Jan 4 with 7983 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
Shame on you. |  |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 01:24 - Jan 5 with 3460 views | Illinoisblue |
And those silent on Hamas? |  |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 08:42 - Jan 5 with 3240 views | DJR |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 01:24 - Jan 5 by Illinoisblue |
And those silent on Hamas? |
It doesn't have to be either-or, although that is the line that the US government and both political parties in the UK have chosen. |  | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:06 - Jan 5 with 3179 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
What a daft post - what does it even mean - if I don’t go on to Twitter and post 20 times a day about Gaza, shame on me? What difference does it make?
Does that also include all the other atrocities and Human Rights violations in China, Yemen, Sudan Ukraine. Is it shame on you for being silent on those? 10k civilians and 100k Ukrainian defenders have been killed but everyone has lost interest now, is it shame on people for being silent on that? |  | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:15 - Jan 5 with 3139 views | DJR |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:06 - Jan 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
What a daft post - what does it even mean - if I don’t go on to Twitter and post 20 times a day about Gaza, shame on me? What difference does it make?
Does that also include all the other atrocities and Human Rights violations in China, Yemen, Sudan Ukraine. Is it shame on you for being silent on those? 10k civilians and 100k Ukrainian defenders have been killed but everyone has lost interest now, is it shame on people for being silent on that? |
I think the main issue here is the silence of both main political parties, which wasn't and isn't the case with Ukraine. Indeed, that very silence has motivated me to post on this matter, when there was no real need on Ukraine, when sentiment in the country and Westminster was on all fours. [Post edited 5 Jan 9:18]
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:17 - Jan 5 with 3128 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 01:24 - Jan 5 by Illinoisblue |
And those silent on Hamas? |
Who hasn't condemned Hamas?
But you have probably summed up why good people are remaining silent when they shouldn't. | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:30 - Jan 5 with 3039 views | NthQldITFC |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:06 - Jan 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
What a daft post - what does it even mean - if I don’t go on to Twitter and post 20 times a day about Gaza, shame on me? What difference does it make?
Does that also include all the other atrocities and Human Rights violations in China, Yemen, Sudan Ukraine. Is it shame on you for being silent on those? 10k civilians and 100k Ukrainian defenders have been killed but everyone has lost interest now, is it shame on people for being silent on that? |
I hear both sides of this, but I think there's a feeling that we (the UK, the US, the West - US) are more complicit in this than in other conflicts. There's a deeply uneasy feeling in us that we have stood, and continue to stand, shoulder-to-shoulder with Israel and have not been outspoken enough let alone done anything to stop the ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
It's about a feeling of collective rather than individual responsibility in us or at least in our closest allies, when our leaders probably have effective levers which could have been pulled had morality overcome politics. |  |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:40 - Jan 5 with 2979 views | SuperKieranMcKenna |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:30 - Jan 5 by NthQldITFC |
I hear both sides of this, but I think there's a feeling that we (the UK, the US, the West - US) are more complicit in this than in other conflicts. There's a deeply uneasy feeling in us that we have stood, and continue to stand, shoulder-to-shoulder with Israel and have not been outspoken enough let alone done anything to stop the ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
It's about a feeling of collective rather than individual responsibility in us or at least in our closest allies, when our leaders probably have effective levers which could have been pulled had morality overcome politics. |
“we (the UK, the US, the West - US) are more complicit in this than in other conflicts”
Well people chose to re-elect Blair after his invasion of Iraq, so we shouldn’t be surprised about our politicians weasel words on Gaza… | | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:52 - Jan 5 with 2950 views | blueasfook |
I am 100% behind Israel in its mission to eliminate Hamas. They are murderous terrorists. I am not behind the killing of innocent civilians. |  |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:54 - Jan 5 with 2917 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:52 - Jan 5 by blueasfook |
I am 100% behind Israel in its mission to eliminate Hamas. They are murderous terrorists. I am not behind the killing of innocent civilians. |
Israel's mission goes way beyond Hamas, or so their actions and words would very very firmly suggest... | | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:54 - Jan 5 with 2916 views | NthQldITFC |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:40 - Jan 5 by SuperKieranMcKenna |
“we (the UK, the US, the West - US) are more complicit in this than in other conflicts”
Well people chose to re-elect Blair after his invasion of Iraq, so we shouldn’t be surprised about our politicians weasel words on Gaza… |
It feels to me something like we have committed to going down a path which we know is wrong and we know there might be no way back from and we're feeling uneasy and guilty about it but we don't know what else to do because we're too scared to make the fundamental changes and egotistical sacrifices which deep down we know are necessary for a peaceful future.
The above really applies to pretty much the whole of humanity and first-and-foremost to our tenuous relationship with the fragile biosphere we currently live on, but it seems to me that it's the same thing. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:55 - Jan 5 with 2911 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:52 - Jan 5 by blueasfook |
I am 100% behind Israel in its mission to eliminate Hamas. They are murderous terrorists. I am not behind the killing of innocent civilians. |
So how us that working out for you? Do you think there should be a ceasefire looking at the evidence before you? | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:58 - Jan 5 with 2906 views | blueasfook |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:55 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
So how us that working out for you? Do you think there should be a ceasefire looking at the evidence before you? |
The war can end today if Hamas surrender and return all of the hostages they still hold. People seem to overlook that. | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:00 - Jan 5 with 2887 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:58 - Jan 5 by blueasfook |
The war can end today if Hamas surrender and return all of the hostages they still hold. People seem to overlook that. |
No chance that it would end. Its not about the hostages, its about a one state outcome and retribution.
Much like Russia and Ukraine, there is only one side who could actually end it unilaterally today. | | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:03 - Jan 5 with 2860 views | Guthrum |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:30 - Jan 5 by NthQldITFC |
I hear both sides of this, but I think there's a feeling that we (the UK, the US, the West - US) are more complicit in this than in other conflicts. There's a deeply uneasy feeling in us that we have stood, and continue to stand, shoulder-to-shoulder with Israel and have not been outspoken enough let alone done anything to stop the ongoing ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people in Gaza.
It's about a feeling of collective rather than individual responsibility in us or at least in our closest allies, when our leaders probably have effective levers which could have been pulled had morality overcome politics. |
One of the problems with this situation is that there's not a lot anyone can practiacally do to end what's happening in Gaza. Israel's allies can lecture Netanyahu all they want, but he isn't going to stop. I doubt he would even if all material and diplomatic support is withdrawn. Indeed, it might get worse in the former case, as more "dumb" munitions are used. The moment this conflict finishes, he is in deep political trouble, plus some of his major allies have a pretty much genocidal attitude towards the Palestinians, so there is a strong vested interest at the top to keep spinning it out.
The only way to bring a quick cessation to the fighting would be a UN Security Council resulution backed by the introduction of effective peacekeepers*. Neither of those things looks likely, due to the veto system and other, ongoing rivalries, plus the lack of an acceptable source for peacekeepers who are actually up to the job.
Even if Hamas are suppressed or brought to the negotiating table, that won't necessarily stop all the other minor and splinter groups continuing to lauch attacks (with Iranian influence stirring in the background). With an inevitable reaction from the Israelis.
* Which has occurred in previous Arab-Israeli conflicts. |  |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:05 - Jan 5 with 2843 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:58 - Jan 5 by blueasfook |
The war can end today if Hamas surrender and return all of the hostages they still hold. People seem to overlook that. |
I'll mark you down in the apologist column then. | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:05 - Jan 5 with 2836 views | MattinLondon |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 09:58 - Jan 5 by blueasfook |
The war can end today if Hamas surrender and return all of the hostages they still hold. People seem to overlook that. |
Firstly I’m not an expert on this issue. But I guess if you ask a fair few Palestinians then they’ll point to Israel for allowing settlers to illegally settle on Palestinian land for being the real reason behind the entire conflict. And if you ask the average Israeli then they may well point to an other historical war or reason.
Hamas started the currant phrase of this war or conflict but the real reasons for it started decades ago not last year. |  | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:09 - Jan 5 with 2810 views | blueasfook |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:05 - Jan 5 by BanksterDebtSlave |
I'll mark you down in the apologist column then. |
Is there a column for "those who hold a balanced point of view"? | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:11 - Jan 5 with 2794 views | Guthrum |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:00 - Jan 5 by redrickstuhaart |
No chance that it would end. Its not about the hostages, its about a one state outcome and retribution.
Much like Russia and Ukraine, there is only one side who could actually end it unilaterally today. |
While what you say is true, if the hostages were released, it would undercut a lot of Jerusalem's justification and might lead to a split in top-level political backing for continuation of attacks. On the other hand, the IDF also has egg on its face over being caught out on Oct 7th and will strongly push to be allowed to "finish the job" (having a lot of political ifluence, too).
However, Hamas won't release all the hostages without major concessions. It would be a fatal capitulation for them. This aside from the fact that some are held by other groups over whom Hamas has little effective control. | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:13 - Jan 5 with 2784 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:11 - Jan 5 by Guthrum |
While what you say is true, if the hostages were released, it would undercut a lot of Jerusalem's justification and might lead to a split in top-level political backing for continuation of attacks. On the other hand, the IDF also has egg on its face over being caught out on Oct 7th and will strongly push to be allowed to "finish the job" (having a lot of political ifluence, too).
However, Hamas won't release all the hostages without major concessions. It would be a fatal capitulation for them. This aside from the fact that some are held by other groups over whom Hamas has little effective control. |
If Hamas release all the hostages, they have no leverage left and quite understandably would fear that the ethnic cleansing process would continue unabated. | | | |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:13 - Jan 5 with 2784 views | Keno |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:05 - Jan 5 by MattinLondon |
Firstly I’m not an expert on this issue. But I guess if you ask a fair few Palestinians then they’ll point to Israel for allowing settlers to illegally settle on Palestinian land for being the real reason behind the entire conflict. And if you ask the average Israeli then they may well point to an other historical war or reason.
Hamas started the currant phrase of this war or conflict but the real reasons for it started decades ago not last year. |
and lets not forget there was a settlement 95% agreed on this a few tears back but Arafat rejected it at the last minute, allegedly as it didnt guarantee him power
Its a very murky long running conflict that doesnt cover any side in glory or justification and while it certainly isnt as simple some would make out (not the OPer) as "Hamas good Isreal bad" had the events of the beginning of October hot happened we wouldnt be where we are now [Post edited 5 Jan 10:20]
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:14 - Jan 5 with 2767 views | BiGDonnie |
Thoughts on the Travis signing? |  |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:22 - Jan 5 with 2703 views | Guthrum |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:13 - Jan 5 by redrickstuhaart |
If Hamas release all the hostages, they have no leverage left and quite understandably would fear that the ethnic cleansing process would continue unabated. |
Plus they would be seen as weak, losing support both internationally and domestically. That support including training, expertise and, most crucially, finances. | |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:23 - Jan 5 with 2700 views | NthQldITFC |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:03 - Jan 5 by Guthrum |
One of the problems with this situation is that there's not a lot anyone can practiacally do to end what's happening in Gaza. Israel's allies can lecture Netanyahu all they want, but he isn't going to stop. I doubt he would even if all material and diplomatic support is withdrawn. Indeed, it might get worse in the former case, as more "dumb" munitions are used. The moment this conflict finishes, he is in deep political trouble, plus some of his major allies have a pretty much genocidal attitude towards the Palestinians, so there is a strong vested interest at the top to keep spinning it out.
The only way to bring a quick cessation to the fighting would be a UN Security Council resulution backed by the introduction of effective peacekeepers*. Neither of those things looks likely, due to the veto system and other, ongoing rivalries, plus the lack of an acceptable source for peacekeepers who are actually up to the job.
Even if Hamas are suppressed or brought to the negotiating table, that won't necessarily stop all the other minor and splinter groups continuing to lauch attacks (with Iranian influence stirring in the background). With an inevitable reaction from the Israelis.
* Which has occurred in previous Arab-Israeli conflicts. |
It goes without saying that I defer to your superior understanding in this, but could not the promised or phased withdrawal of material and diplomatic support by the US put Israel into a situation of certain future collapse unless they were to come to the table to negotiate a two state solution and accept an international peacekeeping force in perpetuity.
Such would obviously precipitate regime change in Israel, but this time we could do it with a workable plan for the aftermath, supported by the sane elements of the people of both sides. | |
| # WE ARE STEALING THE FUTURE FROM OUR CHILDREN --- WE MUST CHANGE COURSE # | | Poll: | It's driving me nuts |
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| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:29 - Jan 5 with 2652 views | redrickstuhaart |
| Anybody silent on Gaza or an apologist for the I.D.F or Israeli state.... on 10:13 - Jan 5 by Keno |
and lets not forget there was a settlement 95% agreed on this a few tears back but Arafat rejected it at the last minute, allegedly as it didnt guarantee him power
Its a very murky long running conflict that doesnt cover any side in glory or justification and while it certainly isnt as simple some would make out (not the OPer) as "Hamas good Isreal bad" had the events of the beginning of October hot happened we wouldnt be where we are now [Post edited 5 Jan 10:20]
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Virtually no one I have seen or heard, bar a few extremists, say Hamas is good. Its a strawman used by IDF apologists alongside weaponised disingenuous claims of anti semitism and "blood libel" to shut down criticism. I do fully understand though, why Hamas is massively attractive to a people who's alternatives are (1) back a terrorist organisation that will stand up and fight for them; or (2) be kicked out of their homes, killed, oppressed etc.
Of course the roots are historical and (disgracefully in 2024...) religous as well as the usual political and economic stuff. In essence though, if Israel pull back their "settlers" or had not pursued that disgraceful and deliuberate policy of invasion by degrees (still in breach of UN resolutions) things might be very different now. | | | |
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