| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... 19:05 - Feb 21 with 6129 views | pointofblue |
... the topic in hand.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68349957
Led by donkeys is quite apt, really. From the outside looking in, it does feel like the Speaker has unnecessarily inserted himself into a party issue, and now distracted from one of the most important subjects of the moment. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 19:11 - Feb 21 with 2951 views | Blueschev |
Someone more cynical than I might suggest that it was deliberate. |  | | |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 19:36 - Feb 21 with 2883 views | Ryorry |
Heard it live - absolute mayhem.
Lindsay Hoyle is basically the Keith Stroud of Speakers. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 19:42 - Feb 21 with 2873 views | blueasfook |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 19:11 - Feb 21 by Blueschev |
Someone more cynical than I might suggest that it was deliberate. |
Still better than that obnoxious little dwarf bully Bercow though |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 21:48 - Feb 21 with 2716 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 19:36 - Feb 21 by Ryorry |
Heard it live - absolute mayhem.
Lindsay Hoyle is basically the Keith Stroud of Speakers. |
The Speaker's position is looking increasingly untenable, although Penny Mordaunt did welcome his apology.
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 21:50 - Feb 21 with 2700 views | DJR |
I posted this on the main Palestinian thread, but probably ought to have posted it here.
Iain Duncan-Smith has been speaking on Sky and said the the Tory and Labour amendments to the SNP motion were effectively the same, although expressed in different language, with Labour managing to crowbar in the words "immediate" and "ceasefire".
Putting it another way, the Labour amendment was purporting to be something it wasn't. | | | |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 22:11 - Feb 21 with 2658 views | GlasgowBlue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 21:50 - Feb 21 by DJR |
I posted this on the main Palestinian thread, but probably ought to have posted it here.
Iain Duncan-Smith has been speaking on Sky and said the the Tory and Labour amendments to the SNP motion were effectively the same, although expressed in different language, with Labour managing to crowbar in the words "immediate" and "ceasefire".
Putting it another way, the Labour amendment was purporting to be something it wasn't. |
Word is he was bounced into adding those words to stave off a rebellion from some shadow ministers.
What a shambles, considering neither the Israeli government or Hamas will take a blind bit of notice on what the UK Parliament votes.
Edit. This is worrying from the Guardian.
“Those briefed on the meeting said the Labour leader warned Hoyle that Labour MPs’ security was at risk. Many had been deluged by criticisms, threats and abuse since abstaining on a similar SNP motion in November. With hundreds of protesters congregating outside parliament, they worried worse might be to come.”
MP’s not voting with their conscience or beliefs but under threat from a mob.
[Post edited 21 Feb 22:25]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 22:35 - Feb 21 with 2606 views | Pinewoodblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 22:11 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Word is he was bounced into adding those words to stave off a rebellion from some shadow ministers.
What a shambles, considering neither the Israeli government or Hamas will take a blind bit of notice on what the UK Parliament votes.
Edit. This is worrying from the Guardian.
“Those briefed on the meeting said the Labour leader warned Hoyle that Labour MPs’ security was at risk. Many had been deluged by criticisms, threats and abuse since abstaining on a similar SNP motion in November. With hundreds of protesters congregating outside parliament, they worried worse might be to come.”
MP’s not voting with their conscience or beliefs but under threat from a mob.
[Post edited 21 Feb 22:25]
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The speaker has to be impartial. By making the decision he did , to accept the Labour amendment, he avoided a rebellion by labour MPs.
Can’t see he has any option but to resign. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 23:13 - Feb 21 with 2556 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 22:35 - Feb 21 by Pinewoodblue |
The speaker has to be impartial. By making the decision he did , to accept the Labour amendment, he avoided a rebellion by labour MPs.
Can’t see he has any option but to resign. |
Exactly this. Starmer turned the whole thing into a political football in order to stave off a Labour rebellion. It had nothing to do with the people of Gaza and all about his position within the party.
I will be surprised if the Conservatives don't tell him "jump or be pushed". It's about the only thing I would agree with them on in a very long time. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 07:21 - Feb 22 with 2366 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 22:11 - Feb 21 by GlasgowBlue |
Word is he was bounced into adding those words to stave off a rebellion from some shadow ministers.
What a shambles, considering neither the Israeli government or Hamas will take a blind bit of notice on what the UK Parliament votes.
Edit. This is worrying from the Guardian.
“Those briefed on the meeting said the Labour leader warned Hoyle that Labour MPs’ security was at risk. Many had been deluged by criticisms, threats and abuse since abstaining on a similar SNP motion in November. With hundreds of protesters congregating outside parliament, they worried worse might be to come.”
MP’s not voting with their conscience or beliefs but under threat from a mob.
[Post edited 21 Feb 22:25]
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Regarding your edit, interesting to note that Tobias Elwood, who has had people protesting outside his house, thought the Speaker was wrong to make the decision on the grounds of MPs' safety.
His view was that it was the duty of an MP to vote with their conscience, regardless. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:13]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 08:24 - Feb 22 with 2255 views | ElephantintheRoom |
Meanwhile at more or less the same time, the Israeli parliament has voted never to recognise a Palestinian state. Now there’s a vote with a bit more consequence than pointless posturing in the mother of parliaments | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:04 - Feb 22 with 2207 views | DanTheMan |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 07:21 - Feb 22 by DJR |
Regarding your edit, interesting to note that Tobias Elwood, who has had people protesting outside his house, thought the Speaker was wrong to make the decision on the grounds of MPs' safety.
His view was that it was the duty of an MP to vote with their conscience, regardless. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:13]
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Does put the speaker in a fairly rough spot though. We shouldn't have people threatening MPs for this sort of thing.
It's worth noting this is after an MP was murdered in part due to his voting record. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:07]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:12 - Feb 22 with 2179 views | Guthrum |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 08:24 - Feb 22 by ElephantintheRoom |
Meanwhile at more or less the same time, the Israeli parliament has voted never to recognise a Palestinian state. Now there’s a vote with a bit more consequence than pointless posturing in the mother of parliaments |
Sadly, you're absolutely right in this. Especially as our political parties are too busy point-scoring and throwing strops over procedure than showing a united face to Netanyahu. |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:22 - Feb 22 with 2137 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:04 - Feb 22 by DanTheMan |
Does put the speaker in a fairly rough spot though. We shouldn't have people threatening MPs for this sort of thing.
It's worth noting this is after an MP was murdered in part due to his voting record. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:07]
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Not really. Stick to procedure, and Labour could bring their amendment on their opposition day. Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment. The only reason yesterday happened was to avoid a split in the Labour Party. And this is what they're like on opposition. Goodness knows we need this government out but it's safe to say Labour are not filling me with any confidence whatsoever that they're not just as underhand and slippery to benefit themselves.
Agree with the points made about more serious decisions being taken elsewhere which are barely being commented on because of Commons procedure, when they should be. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:23 - Feb 22 with 2138 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 08:24 - Feb 22 by ElephantintheRoom |
Meanwhile at more or less the same time, the Israeli parliament has voted never to recognise a Palestinian state. Now there’s a vote with a bit more consequence than pointless posturing in the mother of parliaments |
I don't think it is pointless posturing, given the stance of the leadership of both main parties is out of step with public opinion..
The US vetoed, and the UK abstained on, a UN Security resolution the other day which called for an immediate ceasefire, but France voted for it. But it is clear that both the US and the UK governments are becoming increasingly concerned about the actions of the Israeli government and shifting their position, such that were either (and especially the US) to call for an immediate ceasefire, it would put great pressure on Israel.
But they won't do this without further pressure, and so long as they don't there will be no effective break on Israeli action. | | | |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:23 - Feb 22 with 2127 views | Keno |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:04 - Feb 22 by DanTheMan |
Does put the speaker in a fairly rough spot though. We shouldn't have people threatening MPs for this sort of thing.
It's worth noting this is after an MP was murdered in part due to his voting record. [Post edited 22 Feb 9:07]
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with those thoughts in mind he could/should have called the party leaders, head of the house and maybe a couple of senior MPs from both sides to discuss it and maybe draft a single resolution they could discuss and vote on
Instead Lurch was less worried about Gaza and more concerned playing hard ball trying to shaft labour
Kier Stermer seems to be running scared of a revolt and may/or may not have put pressure on the speaker (I suspect he did). He should have put his big boy pants on and put Gaza first
The Tories actually had a constitutional point but rather than out Gaza first decided to the 'clever' and missed the point/vote
None of them come out very well, bunch of eejits [Post edited 22 Feb 9:24]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:26 - Feb 22 with 2102 views | BanksterDebtSlave |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:12 - Feb 22 by Guthrum |
Sadly, you're absolutely right in this. Especially as our political parties are too busy point-scoring and throwing strops over procedure than showing a united face to Netanyahu. |
Not words that Elephant reads too often on the forum! |  |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:30 - Feb 22 with 2061 views | Keno |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 08:24 - Feb 22 by ElephantintheRoom |
Meanwhile at more or less the same time, the Israeli parliament has voted never to recognise a Palestinian state. Now there’s a vote with a bit more consequence than pointless posturing in the mother of parliaments |
Have a thumb up Ellie, good point and worth making | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:32 - Feb 22 with 2051 views | DanTheMan |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:22 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
Not really. Stick to procedure, and Labour could bring their amendment on their opposition day. Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment. The only reason yesterday happened was to avoid a split in the Labour Party. And this is what they're like on opposition. Goodness knows we need this government out but it's safe to say Labour are not filling me with any confidence whatsoever that they're not just as underhand and slippery to benefit themselves.
Agree with the points made about more serious decisions being taken elsewhere which are barely being commented on because of Commons procedure, when they should be. |
Because it would have forced MPs to vote against something that they're being threatened about.
I'm not saying anyone comes out of this particularly well but people seem way more upset about breaking procedure than they do about threats to MPs, or indeed what they were actually voting on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68349957?ns_mchannel=social&ns_s [Post edited 22 Feb 9:39]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:33 - Feb 22 with 2039 views | DJR |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:22 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
Not really. Stick to procedure, and Labour could bring their amendment on their opposition day. Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment. The only reason yesterday happened was to avoid a split in the Labour Party. And this is what they're like on opposition. Goodness knows we need this government out but it's safe to say Labour are not filling me with any confidence whatsoever that they're not just as underhand and slippery to benefit themselves.
Agree with the points made about more serious decisions being taken elsewhere which are barely being commented on because of Commons procedure, when they should be. |
The filibustering by Chris Bryant and others yesterday to give time for the deal with the Speaker to be agreed is pretty disgraceful too.
The more time goes on the more Groucho Marx's words seem apt to describe Labour under Starmer, and as you imply it doesn't augur well for government.
"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them...well I have others." [Post edited 22 Feb 9:51]
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:34 - Feb 22 with 2022 views | pointofblue |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:23 - Feb 22 by DJR |
I don't think it is pointless posturing, given the stance of the leadership of both main parties is out of step with public opinion..
The US vetoed, and the UK abstained on, a UN Security resolution the other day which called for an immediate ceasefire, but France voted for it. But it is clear that both the US and the UK governments are becoming increasingly concerned about the actions of the Israeli government and shifting their position, such that were either (and especially the US) to call for an immediate ceasefire, it would put great pressure on Israel.
But they won't do this without further pressure, and so long as they don't there will be no effective break on Israeli action. |
In truth the UK's stance means nothing in the greater scheme of things. I suppose if we withdraw support it may increase pressure on America but really internal politics will steer direction there, rather rather than what their allies are saying or doing. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:35 - Feb 22 with 2016 views | Ryorry |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:22 - Feb 22 by pointofblue |
Not really. Stick to procedure, and Labour could bring their amendment on their opposition day. Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment. The only reason yesterday happened was to avoid a split in the Labour Party. And this is what they're like on opposition. Goodness knows we need this government out but it's safe to say Labour are not filling me with any confidence whatsoever that they're not just as underhand and slippery to benefit themselves.
Agree with the points made about more serious decisions being taken elsewhere which are barely being commented on because of Commons procedure, when they should be. |
“Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment”
Might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, they couldn’t do that because they (Labour) were calling for an immediate ceasefire, not just a ‘humanitarian pause’. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:38 - Feb 22 with 1969 views | Ryorry |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:32 - Feb 22 by DanTheMan |
Because it would have forced MPs to vote against something that they're being threatened about.
I'm not saying anyone comes out of this particularly well but people seem way more upset about breaking procedure than they do about threats to MPs, or indeed what they were actually voting on.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-68349957?ns_mchannel=social&ns_s [Post edited 22 Feb 9:39]
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Protesting outside MPs’ homes meant their families, including kids, were being threatened too, clearly unacceptable. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:41 - Feb 22 with 1954 views | DanTheMan |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:35 - Feb 22 by Ryorry |
“Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment”
Might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, they couldn’t do that because they (Labour) were calling for an immediate ceasefire, not just a ‘humanitarian pause’. |
My understanding is it's the collective punishment bit that Labour were against. | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:42 - Feb 22 with 1943 views | Keno |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:38 - Feb 22 by Ryorry |
Protesting outside MPs’ homes meant their families, including kids, were being threatened too, clearly unacceptable. |
which ro me is what makes the party politics played by some more despicable, and the whole thing was handled very badly
It was a day the house could/should have come together for the greater good but it didnt | |
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| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:44 - Feb 22 with 1932 views | Keno |
| Nice to see the Gaza ceasefire vote in the Commons is keeping to... on 09:35 - Feb 22 by Ryorry |
“Or their MPs could vote for the SNP amendment”
Might be wrong on this, but as I understand it, they couldn’t do that because they (Labour) were calling for an immediate ceasefire, not just a ‘humanitarian pause’. |
From the BBC
"As a reminder, the original SNP motion called for an "immediate ceasefire" and said Israel's war amounted to "collective punishment" of Palestinians, a position Labour did not support. Meanwhile the government amendment called for a "humanitarian pause". Hoyle then allowed a Labour amendment calling for an "immediate humanitarian ceasefire""
Talk about semantics | |
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